Its hunting season....sssshhh i am hunting muslims

CM · Post by CM » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:29 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

That is down right pathetic. Since when has it been acceptable to shoot first, kill and then try to ask questions. The problem is that it is going to get worse. On both fronts - the terrorists as well as by the western governments.

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:45 pm

I heard more about that. Apparently he was wearing a bulky jacket and refused to talk to the police. He started running and was going to get on an Underground train and then the police shot him. He could have been wearing a bomb.
You can understand the police are going to be a lot more more cautious following recent events, although it does not condone the fact that they shot to kill rather than disable.

Police challenge the man but he apparently refuses to obey instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead

No doubt the police have made a martyr to the terrorist cause, but what is the alternative, more deaths due to a bomb going off?

moltovir · Post by **moltovir** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:55 pm

They didn't shoot him while he was running; according to eye-witnesses, the man ran away from the police, stumbled over the rails, was held down on the ground and then shot five times. The police shouldn't shoot to kill, and they shouldn't shoot someone who they've pulled down on the ground. The policeman who did this is no better than an ordinary murderer, and should stand trial in my opinion. Fear is no excuse for paranoia and incompetence.

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:59 pm

There are a lot of different accounts on this.

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:11 pm

I'll wait until after the private investigation until I make a judgement. But suffice to say, based on the facts known, it is unsuprising what happened - if tragic.

In the current climate, an asian man running from armed police officers on to a train are all the ingredients for rash action. Police are jittery, and the expected (but unwanted) suspicion of the asian (specifically Islamic) community is going to be rampant among the public and the police.

As I said I hate to be judgemental of the situation until a full investigation is completed. But if I were asian, and I ran through a station from police heading for a train - I wouldn't expect to be read my rights. The man COULD have been a terrorist, I'm making that judgement from behind a computer. In a situation like that with a man acting extremely suspiciously by running towards a train for goodness sake, officers also made a jugement and opened fire. He died. He wasn't a terrorist. A very big and serious mistake was made

.

Obviously an investigation is required. But we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that policemen are out to shoot muslims in vengeance. I'd like to think they were doing their job protecting the public - unfortunately they had the serious possibility of terrorism running in the back of their minds so they made a very big mistake. Ofcourse I could be wrong, they could have been racist pigs with pistols, who decided to take an opportunity to gun down a Muslim and score one for ol' Blighty

But armed police are the serious minority in Britain. I'm pretty sure xenophobic fascists aren't being handed guns here and there to do the beat among ethnic minorities.

Don't forget if they later discovered this man was strapped with explosives and was the key in another bomb attack these men would have been hailed as heroes

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:22 pm

Why would someone run from armed police who identified themselves (even if the police were in plain clothes)?

It's possible that the victim thought there was a different reason for them chasing him or maybe he didn't hear the police identifying themselves, but something still seems fishy to me about the whole situation...

CM · Post by CM » Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:35 pm

The "Asian" turned out to be a brazilian!! Good god. No amount of spin can cover up the fact that the police went after the guy because of his skin color and features.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:59 pm

Even if he was seen coming out of a house under observation for a possible terrorist link?

Remember, one of the four suicide bombers on 7/7 was not Asian - he was west indian.

<edit> and for the record, if I were being persued by 20 armed officers, unless I had something to hide, I am sure I would do as I was told and surrender.

CM · Post by CM » Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:07 pm

Ysh read the article, Scotland yard said he was not connected in anyway to the bombers. So i am seriously doubting if he even came out of the house. First he is asian. Then he is seen coming out of the house. Now he has not connection whatsoever.

BBC has editted its link once again but there was a quote from Scotland Yard in there that he was not related in anyway to the bombings.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:02 pm

Considering the cirumstances surrounding the incident, eliminating a possible terrorism suspect for the safety of others is an unfortunate consequence of the level of security required in the wake of the bombings. I, for one, understand this. The transportation system has been the prime target. The suspect was seen leaving a domicile under surveillance. He attempted to elude police personnel and board a train. This all adds up. I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the officers faced a very tough decision on the spot and acted in what they felt was the best manner possible. That this ended up being unnecessary is tragic.

Judgement can be passed upon the police personnel very easily - too easily - when one is removed from involvement in a volatile situation where the lives of many could be at stake. I'll stick up for those officers. While I might disagree completely with the entire "War on Terror" in principle and in concept, this has nothing to do whatsoever with the individuals whose job it is to serve the public, like those police officers. It's easy to scrutinize, but far more difficult to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:53 pm

This is a complain:

Dear Terrorist Hunters.

Please, avoid shooting inocent people. Specially Brazilian inocent people. We're stupid and underinstructed, so we cant properly understand your language. So forgive us without shooting our heads of.

No more,

Luis

CM · Post by CM » Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:13 pm

So chanak you are saying it is basically ok to shoot first and figure out of the man was innocent or guilty later on because what some other people did?

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:44 pm

[QUOTE=CM]So chanak you are saying it is basically ok to shoot first and figure out of the man was innocent or guilty later on because what some other people did?[/QUOTE]

I'm thinking he meant that it was simply an error in judgement with terrible consequences. As tragic, upsetting and terrible as that can be, those things DO happen.

Personally. I've grown sick of the media altogether. I don't like believing anything the media puts out unless I've seen it myself, or heard it from a source I trust. I wasn't there, and don't know what happened except that police shot and killed a man.

You can take a ton of angles on the situation, I've met good police, bad police, I've a great grandfather who used to be a beat cop around here who was a notorious biggot and racist, so I know you've got all kinds of people in uniform doing that job.

Either way, just as you said, the story has been changed a few times, to me that says someone is trying to cover something up. Whether it's as simple as people trying to cover up a terrible error in police judgement, or something bigger I don't know.

CopperWater · Post by **CopperWater** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:14 pm

How stupid can you be to run from the police in this climate? Especialy if you run from the police and try to board a train. Innocent people dont run from the cops. He wasnt a terroist, but he must of thought he was in serious trouble. I think its better to accidently kill one man than to risk him killing dozens.

CM · Post by CM » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:07 pm

This is going to sound very rude but have you guys actually read the eye witness accounts of what happened to this man? He was wrestled to the ground and while he was on the ground surrounded by the police not a threat to anybody 5 bullets were plugged in to his head.

You want to save people go for it. I say use racial profiling to get the job done. But don't put 5 bullets into a guys head. Of course the 5 bullets were added to his brain when he was suspected to be a muslim terrorist.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/britain_unde ... NlYwN0bQ--

The third paragraph in this news link:

Police expressed regret for the death of the man at the Stockwell subway station, identified Saturday as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him about five times in the head and torso.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:32 pm

That, I did not catch. I've been busy writing things up all day and only browsed the top few paragraphs of the first link.

That puts a totally new spin on things there. That's murder. Firing at a fleeing suspect could be an error in judgement in this type of situation if the man turned up innocent and just terrified. Firing multiple rounds into a subdued subject is an execution.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:00 am

The difference here is that the responcible people from the police will get tried and their actions reviewed. But then, they might come of clean or with a minor punishment, due to the entier situation/climate. 2 rounds of terrorist bombs over 14 days.
And then add, that here we have a man who ran from police who called for him to stop, who called they were armed, and he didn't, but continued - and doing so jepodised many other innocents. The situation is understandeble.
And from a safty perspective, it is quite clear why they shot. Had it been a terrorist, he could still have detonated what bomb he possible had even with police "on top of him". As it turns out - he wasn't, which means the policemen will get punished or at least tried for shooting him.

Besides - pinning this act on the entier police force, or even the british or western government opposed to the officers in question, as is the case in the original post, is just bad taste.

giles337 · Post by **giles337** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:18 am

And from a safty perspective, it is quite clear why they shot. Had it been a terrorist, he could still have detonated what bomb he possible had even with police "on top of him". As it turns out - he wasn't, which means the policemen will get punished or at least tried for shooting him.

Hows that? If he was pinned down, then it would have been nigh on impossible to reach a bomb inside his jacket; and if the bomb was on a timer, shooting him would have been pointless. This sickens me.

Another point, If I was chased by people with guns, not in uniform, I too would run, regardless of what they shouted at me; I'd be more concerned with getting away. Does this make me a terror suspect?

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:10 am

[QUOTE=CM]This is going to sound very rude but have you guys actually read the eye witness accounts of what happened to this man? He was wrestled to the ground and while he was on the ground surrounded by the police not a threat to anybody 5 bullets were plugged in to his head.
[/QUOTE]

That was ONE witness. Others commented that he seemed to have a belt with wires around him

. Do people have no respect for professionals? A tragic accident happens and trained officers are suddenly labelled as vile, hot headed murderers. As I say, they could be, but I'd prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and call this a very tragic accident.

Plus the only comment from police is that the man was not linked to the "incidents" (i.e. bombings). Not a pristine white label of innocence yet.

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:25 am

We should really wait until there is one definitive account that takes all of the sightings into account before we can really comment on this

.