Its hunting season....sssshhh i am hunting muslims

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:25 am

I totally agree with The Z.

Also, didn't that brasilian guy live in London for some time? And even if he didn't, surely he was well aware of the situation in London. In those situations, what is the "dumbest" thing to do when armed man comes to you and identify himself as police? Generally to wear clothes that may give others feeling you have bomb around your waist, then start running away from police towards metro station, which will only increase the feeling you are suicidebomber. So, the police wasn't just the only one who mad mistake, but also that brasilian guy did. I'm not saying that it was right that he got killed and I'm sorry that it happened, but we should face the fact: the man also made a BIG mistake by acting like he did.

giles337 · Post by **giles337** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:51 am

[QUOTE=Ysh]That is an outrageous accusation, Luis! The police just would not have got away with such a diabolical act in this country. I certainly have no idea how the Brazilian police may have acted in similar situations, or what level of cover-up they might have tried afterwards - but the bottom line is, it was proclaimed he was found unconnected to the bombings by police because he WAS unconnected - NOT BECAUSE HE WAS NOT PAKISTANI OR ASIAN OR MUSLIM! Even as a Brazilian, he might have been guilty. Don't you get it? He was inoocent because he was, and if he was guilty then we wouldn't be here now except, perhaps, to wonder how the hell a Brazilian got caught up in this screwed up "mission".
[/QUOTE]

You think a white person would have been shot quite so readily? I hate to say it Ysh, but I think Luis is right. The police were trigger happy, due to the ethnicity of the victim, IMO.

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:49 am

My god. It's a cause for suspicion to wear coats in 16 C weather with 13kph winds? Those policemen seriously need to broaden their horizons.

16 C in Hong Kong would have been considered deep winter. And Hong Kong is a much colder place than Brazil is. I'm relatively resistant to weather compared to many of my friends, but I will seriously consider the possibility of heavy coats if I woke up in the morning and saw the thermometer at 16 degrees celsius.

Besides, if I am going to carry a bomb, I will N.O.T. carry it under my coat. I will carry it in a bag.

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:58 am

[QUOTE=Rookierookie]My god. It's a cause for suspicion to wear coats in 16 C weather with 13kph winds? Those policemen seriously need to broaden their horizons.
[/QUOTE]

No I think at the time there was still a bit of sunshine. And over here, it could be 5 deg C with a glimmer of sunshine and we'd all be out in shorts and suncream

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:38 am

Well said.

[QUOTE=Kipi]I totally agree with The Z.

Also, didn't that brasilian guy live in London for some time? And even if he didn't, surely he was well aware of the situation in London. In those situations, what is the "dumbest" thing to do when armed man comes to you and identify himself as police? Generally to wear clothes that may give others feeling you have bomb around your waist, then start running away from police towards metro station, which will only increase the feeling you are suicidebomber. So, the police wasn't just the only one who mad mistake, but also that brasilian guy did. I'm not saying that it was right that he got killed and I'm sorry that it happened, but we should face the fact: the man also made a BIG mistake by acting like he did.[/QUOTE]

My sentiments exactly.

However, it would be a totally different issue if it's true that the person was already subdued and yet 5 bullets were still pumped on his head.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:42 am

As I thought. He was dreaming with a better life and had his visa overdue (or something, I cant recall the proper word to when the visa ends). So, in fact, he has escaped because he was illegal.

From BBC:

Shooting victim had expired visa

Menezes had been in London for more than three years
The Brazilian man shot dead by police in south London, who mistook him for a suicide bomber, had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say.

Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.

The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours.

Relatives of Mr Menezes are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting, saying police will have "to pay".

Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.

Failed bombing suspects

Would-be bombers 'at large'
'New' terrorism sparks fear

Three men have been arrested so far, but it is thought the four would-be bombers are still free and may have access to explosives.

Meanwhile, Chris Fox, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, gave his support to the Metropolitan Police's "shoot-to-kill" policy with potential suicide bombers, in the wake of Friday's shooting of Mr Menezes.

"Shoot-to-kill is very good headline but, in fact, what we have to do is have a series of tactics which range from disruption to the very, very final moment when you have to shoot and the aim is to prevent the criminal or suspect causing harm to other people," he said.

Under surveillance

However, the victim's cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said: "[The police] have to pay for [Friday's killing] in many ways, because if they do not, they are going to kill many people, they are going to kill thousands of people.

"They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did.

"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."

Alex Pereira
Mr Menezes' cousin says the police "must pay"

Mr Menezes was killed after fleeing armed police as he travelled to work.

He had been followed by police from his block of flats in Tulse Hill, which was under surveillance in the hunt for the group behind Thursday's attempted bombings.

Mr Menezes had boarded the number 2 bus to Stockwell.

Police said his padded jacket had heightened suspicions about his journey. He was shot as he ran on to a train.

Heavy coats or clothing are often worn by suicide bombers in other parts of the world to help them disguise their bombs.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death.

You would think the British police would be prepared, but they are panicking and seeing everyone as a suspect
Maria do Socorro

In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.

Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before details about the visa emerged, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think they acted incompetently, like amateurs.

"You would think the British police would be prepared, but they are panicking and seeing everyone as a suspect.

"If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."

Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.

'Highly trained'

Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.

Former Prime Minister Sir John Major has defended the police's actions.

Speaking on the Today programme, Sir John said: "These officers are very highly trained. Very few of them are permitted to carry arms, but in that second they had no-one to help them, no-one to turn to.

"They had to make a decision. Do we take this dreadful decision to shoot, or do we face the risk that conceivably, if our worst fears are right, a bomb could be detonated that could kill people, including them, in the next second or so?"

Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.

I'd run too.

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:06 am

No I think at the time there was still a bit of sunshine. And over here, it could be 5 deg C with a glimmer of sunshine and we'd all be out in shorts and suncream

Try 35 celsius, 80% humidity, and no clouds as far as the eye can see. THAT is summer. I'm sure it's even hotter in Brazil.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:29 am

Yup, the point being...

[QUOTE=Rookierookie]Try 35 celsius, 80% humidity, and no clouds as far as the eye can see. THAT is summer. I'm sure it's even hotter in Brazil.[/QUOTE]

... locals wouldn't find the temp. very cold, but for foreigners from tropical countries it would be cold enough for them to wear heavy clothing... hence, the heavy padded coat.

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:17 am

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]@ Audace: Are you implying I cant express my opinion? I'm not advertizing the KKK, I'm doing exactly the opposite. Now, if you dont want to discuss, ok. Just dont start this UFO thing, that looks far more like trolling to me than the KKK being mentioned. And its spam.[/QUOTE]

You are calling the British police force the new KKK and I am trolling!!? Be glad I am only comparing that remark to conspiracy theories in general. Your comment would merit a more vicious approach. And I am implying, wether you are game-mods or not, that you have a responsibilty in this forum and that you indeed do not have the freedom to completely express your opinion here. Neither have I and as you might have noticed I have refrained from freely expressing myself. You are a mod. Act like one.

[QUOTE=CM]Audace firstly we are mods of the gaming forums. We are not accountable to anybody for our personal opinions and the ability to practice our god given right to freedom of speech. As always if you have a problem please take it up with Buck.[/QUOTE]

Yes you are accountable. No you don't have the right to complete freedom of speech here. You are mods for God's sake. There goes more with that position then some nifty options to use in the forum. You guys should be setting the right example. And as for that last "coin phrase" we have mods for that.

[QUOTE=CM]
Audace shoot to kill is not a legal principle. It is something Hollywood coined. Why don't you tell me what the difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree murder is? Because 5 bullets to the head is first degree. The example was to illustrate the absurdity of both claims, mine and the other in question.[/QUOTE]
Appearantly you are not gonna do any research into this topic, and I'm completely not interested in educating unwilling students. Discussion and topic closed for me.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:06 pm

[QUOTE=giles337]You think a white person would have been shot quite so readily? I hate to say it Ysh, but I think Luis is right. The police were trigger happy, due to the ethnicity of the victim, IMO.[/QUOTE]

If the circumstances were the same, then yes, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Something that hasn't come up...

Let us say that he WAS guilty, had there been a possibility to take him alive, don't you think the police would have had more to gain by interrogating the individual rather than shooting him dead?

Let us believe, for a minute, that they TRULY believed he was carrying explosives and reacted accordingly. Had circumstances not escalated as they did, might we be a step closer to finding the real criminals if he had have been guilty and apprehended, and not shot dead by some racist cop on an ethnic cleansing mission?

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:10 pm

[QUOTE=Rookierookie]Try 35 celsius, 80% humidity, and no clouds as far as the eye can see. THAT is summer. I'm sure it's even hotter in Brazil.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure what you are getting at here, but you have pretty much described the weather in London over the last few weeks. Admittedly it has cooled somewhat in the last week or so, but it is still too warm for heavy coats, whatever your origin. I have a Brazilian friend, he has not worn a coat yet. The individual in question had resided in the UK for three years, so I would guess he was somewhere close to becoming acclimatised.

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:18 pm

Was the offense involuntary or voluntary manslaughter?

Involuntary
A murder committed while in the act of something unlawful but does not amount to a felony. A murder committed in a dangerous act that is done recklessly and without regard for human life.

Voluntary
A murder committed 'in the heat of the moment', a murder that is committed at sudden provocation.

There is no doubt that this is manslaughter; there was no premeditation or previous circumstances that affected the officer's judgement. However, in states that care to categorize manslaughter, 'voluntary' is quite often a first-degree offense, while 'involuntary' is considered a second/third-degree murder. So Fas is sort of right and sort of wrong at the same time. While it's correct to say that first-degree is either premeditated or done in the act of a major felony, voluntary manslaughter can also be considered first-degree. Although, this is from an American perspective on law.

Why even argue the point? It's moot. These men will be brought to trial without a doubt and either way, will lose, whether they're simply stripped of their post or sent to prison.

As for police brutality...who knows if the man was actually subdued? So there were three witness accounts, big deal. There's a helluva lot more then three people in a London train station at any given time. These witnesses will be at these men's trial as will many others who will undoubtedly have different accounts. Fear does strange things to people.

I wonder why we're arguing. Whether anyone likes it or not, racism exists everywhere, at schools, at workplaces - just everywhere. It gets out of hand a lot. But to start calling people racists because they made a mistake is simply furthering this stigma. I'm part of an ethnic minority and why should I call someone a racist if he does something to me? To do so is absurd. If I thought it was racist, I'd try and prove him wrong with my ACTIONS, not by yelling and screaming at him.

S**t happens. Deal with it. Life's too short to be spent outraged. I mean, it's summertime and all we can think about is bombs. How pathetic we are. We all know in a year's time this incident will be far from our minds so why become so touchy on either side? To combat defiance with defiance is an exercise in futility and I don't need to give examples - there are enough. Agree to disagree.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:42 pm

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]@Ysh: That IS the point. London is a melting point. Now why do it sounds to me a lot like it was a decision based on "he's a foreigner"? That's what I mean. You dont heal socio-economic problems, people immigrate, make London become a "melting point" and terrorist bombings happen. Then, it seems, the first targets the police chases are the foreigners. And one of them has five bullets on his head/upper torso. Accident? Racism? What? See that I dont mean all english people are like that. But it seems to me that even the Justice department is not really regreting that. [/QUOTE]

We could go around in circles forever on this one. London has welcomed immigrants since the 1950s when West Indians were first invited to take up residence to fill gaps in the workplace following the losses of the second world war. We are now generations beyond "foreigner" status on most accounts. The justice department have gone through the predicted "we regret" speech, but until the case is heard, they will stand by their policy in the current climate. IF the officer who shot the man is found guilty of anything untoward, he will be dealt with in a civilian courtroom, and put on suspension until his case is heard.

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Now regarding my thoughts about the divided opinions, I've just seen on brazilian news that there are manifestations and people asking that the policemen involved be arrested. (Btw, if any of you read this, thanks, even though its a short term solution, it shows how worried the country is) Arresting them is not the proper solution, it demands time and research.

Edit - oh, I dont mean England does not welcome foreigners, but it is known how xenophobians European people can be. Notice, they can be. I dont mean they are xenophobians. Please.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, they will be dealt with appropriately should it be deemed they are at fault. So far as the generalisation that Europeans are xenophobic, I guess the Brits could be considered so by the fact they stubbornly deny they are an integral part of the united Europe.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:54 pm

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]As I thought. He was dreaming with a better life and had his visa overdue (or something, I cant recall the proper word to when the visa ends). So, in fact, he has escaped because he was illegal.
[/QUOTE]

Very sad, truly, but the bottom line is he was a resident for three years, he was aware of the current climate...did he not believe the police when they made it clear they were armed and prepared to shoot *sigh* is an out of date visa worth dying for?

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:14 pm

[QUOTE=Audace]You are calling the British police force the new KKK and I am trolling!!? Be glad I am only comparing that remark to conspiracy theories in general. Your comment would merit a more vicious approach. And I am implying, wether you are game-mods or not, that you have a responsibilty in this forum and that you indeed do not have the freedom to completely express your opinion here. Neither have I and as you might have noticed I have refrained from freely expressing myself. You are a mod. Act like one.
[/QUOTE]

Goddess no! I mean that if the english responsible for justice tells that this is ok, and these policeman have done that with racist intention it'll be turning the scotland yard into a new KKK. As I said in other posts, I believe the S Y. Now please, read the previous posts again.

[QUOTE=Ysh]Very sad, truly, but the bottom line is he was a resident for three years, he was aware of the current climate...did he not believe the police when they made it clear they were armed and prepared to shoot *sigh* is an out of date visa worth dying for?[/QUOTE]

Ysh, I guess this is another case of "My life is so miserable there, I just cant return". It happens a lot. Also, being sent back and being deprived of his acquired confort may have destroyed his judgement.

Regarding temperature, 35 celsius is hotter than hell, even for brazil (say, call a high temp here 41-42 degrees on the top of the summer). My bet is still that he tried to escape, if he did (of course), because of his visa.

Well, ok, this should not be turning into an xenofobic thread... sorry if I was with my head hot a few posts ago.

giles337 · Post by **giles337** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:17 pm

[QUOTE=The Z]S**t happens. Deal with it. Life's too short to be spent outraged. I mean, it's summertime and all we can think about is bombs. How pathetic we are. We all know in a year's time this incident will be far from our minds so why become so touchy on either side? To combat defiance with defiance is an exercise in futility and I don't need to give examples - there are enough. Agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]

Would you say this if one of your own kin was shot?

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:24 pm

[QUOTE=The Z]Was the offense involuntary or voluntary manslaughter?

Involuntary
A murder committed while in the act of something unlawful but does not amount to a felony. A murder committed in a dangerous act that is done recklessly and without regard for human life.

Voluntary
A murder committed 'in the heat of the moment', a murder that is committed at sudden provocation.

There is no doubt that this is manslaughter; there was no premeditation or previous circumstances that affected the officer's judgement. However, in states that care to categorize manslaughter, 'voluntary' is quite often a first-degree offense, while 'involuntary' is considered a second/third-degree murder. So Fas is sort of right and sort of wrong at the same time. While it's correct to say that first-degree is either premeditated or done in the act of a major felony, voluntary manslaughter can also be considered first-degree. Although, this is from an American perspective on law.

Why even argue the point? It's moot. These men will be brought to trial without a doubt and either way, will lose, whether they're simply stripped of their post or sent to prison.
[/QUOTE]

In Britain common law applies to murder which basically means that it all comes down to jurisprudence. Before diving into that swamp it might be good to realize that English judges have to abide to EC law. Since EC law is clearly codified but has less jurisprudence this would make a disussion about it easier but less usefull since there is not much "history" to back up a legal argument concerning this. So let's just skip to the main point. There's a different section in the law concerning the rights etc. of police officers (which is why for instance they are allowed to cary guns, drive to fast etc.). This might mean this will actually never go to trial. I for one cannot make any founded judgement on that because I do not know the specifics of this case. Screaming Murder! is not only very unconstructive, it also shows a lack of any basic understanding of the law system.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:43 pm

Boys and girls, brazilian news tell that it was not 5 shots, nor 6, but eight shots, seven to the head, one to the shoulder.

Damn, had he a sign saying "I'm gonna blow you up?"

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:47 pm

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Goddess no! I mean that if the english responsible for justice tells that this is ok, and these policeman have done that with racist intention it'll be turning the scotland yard into a new KKK. As I said in other posts, I believe the S Y. Now please, read the previous posts again.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Racial problems exist, Fas, not only because he was muslim. He could have been only Latin, he'd have tons more chance to be spanked or arrested under no charge, just for being unable to reply to the cops.

I'm with you on the no proof point CM. I'm just implying that the racial problem was seen as an excuse. If this guy was Asian, or muslim, they'd frame him anyway, after he was dead. But he was brazilian. How to frame him?.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]
I keep wondering how many innocent muslims may have died on Iraq because of these kind of actions. Or how many people are being framed right now because how they look.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=CM]
I agree with you man. It could have been any brown guy. It turned to be a Brazilian this time. Next time it could be an Arab or an Indonesian. What you have is racial profiling and cops being allowed to use racial profiling as a form of proof to commit murder.

Imagine this happening in our part of the world. A white european or american being gunned down by the police in Brazil or Pakistan. What do you think the reaction would be like?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]A new, legalized, Ku Klux Kan (sp?).[/QUOTE]

I know you posted other things as well so in retrospect your views are probably more balanced then I took them for, if so I apologize for misunderstanding. But I still stand by my point that you should not throw around heavy wordings like KKK so easily, especially in a way that they can be easily misunderstood. Especially when you are using these words in a reaction to CM's post above.

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:19 pm

[QUOTE=giles337]Would you say this if one of your own kin was shot?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Of course I would be a lot more distraught, given the circumstances, but after a few weeks/months, I'd say 'move on'. It'd be in the back of my mind still though. I know it seems really insensitive, but maybe I'm just a bastard. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

@Audace...Ah...ok. I see. I'm really uneducated as far as the specifics of law (in Britain, Canada, and the US), since I've only scratched the surface, so thanks for the info.