Young girls and revealing clothes

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:17 pm

That's quite fine, no rush at all.

[QUOTE=Fiona]The more controversial part is that all men benefit from the limits women have placed on them by fear. By doing nothing they eliminate quite a lot of competition in many fields. They don't have to be actively threatening or even opposed to equality. They just have to accept what follows from the status quo. I think that goes a long way to explaining the content of some parts of this thread.[/QUOTE]

That part, you've lost me on. Are you saying men are limited by women, and some are benefiting from that?

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:09 pm

What percentage of men report rape and what percentage don't? How exactly am I supposed to find out, out of all men raped in a certain time period, how many actually reported it? I'm not psychic. And what I say may imply I feel rape is worse for men, but I don't mean it. It's bad either way; for the men who are victimized, they may feel it's much worse for them because they were robbed of all masculinity. To them, it will feel much worse, and if they were to report it, they might feel so ashamed. I know women feel the same, but most women aren't brought up from childhood to think they're big, strong, macho people that can take care of themselves.

Any social gathering is a place for people to pick up prospective dates. This happens in any social groups or gatherings. A family of chimpanzees constitute a social group, and where do you think they'll pick up their mates? A pack of wolves are a social group, and the alpha male will cruise his pack and choose his alpha female. A male lion wandering the plains alone may come across a group of lionesses, and he'll try to woo one over so he can made; of course, that generally leads to competition with the groups already-present males. Humans, again, are no different. Any social group can lead to picking up wo/men. People can ask each other out in class at school, they can ask them out on the street, they can ask them out anywhere; I was in fact asked out on another message board. But bars are generally considered to be a spot by people to look for dates; you may not think so, but it is a social place and many people do go to bars to hook up. As for not going to a bar alone, if it's so dangerous to go there alone if you're looking for men, why would a woman go to a bar alone if they're not interested in looking for men? If nothing else, the rejection a suitor might feel may cause him to engage in the kind of behavior you allude to, and she'd be just as in jeopardy now as she would if she were actually there to meet men. And I don't go to bars; if I drink, I drink at home, and I don't drink often.

Dress is an invitation to look; you can argue with that, but it's fact. A woman may happen to notice a guy wearing some expensive shirt or shoes and think, "Ooh, high roller," and continue to check him out. A girl might see a guy in a tight shirt and start watching him carry on with his business. You can't tell me women and men both don't start ogling each other when they're dressed provocatively. And many people do wear certain clothes in order to garner that kind of attention, inviting them to look. People like to look good to attract attention, get boyfriends or girlfriends, and certain clothes are designed for that exact purpose. And I will assume that "centre of the universe" comment was not aimed directly at me, since I'm probably one of the few in the world who knows they're furthest from it (I base this last comment on drivers mostly, since so many of them, at least in Florida, tend to believe rules don't apply to them and they're all that matter).

I was raised to look at people equally; you can doubt I see men as vulnerable as women, but maybe you're as much a victim of society as you think I am. You seem to be under the impression that men aren't vulnerable, or at least you're implying it. Not all men fit into a single mold, and not all women fit into a single mold, either. Not all men are strong, assertive guys who show little emotion, and not all women are weak, submissive girls who can't control their emotions. I see all humans as equal, but I also see how we get raised: baby boys get blue rooms, blue blankies, and baby girls get pink rooms, pink blankies; young boys get action figures, young girls get Barbies; boys mow the lawn, girls do the dishes. Lots of people were raised that way; I was raised with He-man, Thundercats, as well as She-Ra and Care Bears (yes, Care Bears). Because society has us in this pattern, we don't like to see men as vulnerable, and we don't like to see women who are strong and independent (there was a Sex and the City episode [yes, I watch that] on recently where Miranda wanted to buy her boyfriend, Steve, a suit because he's only a poor bartender while she's a successful lawyer; he felt vulnerable because he looked weak and poor compared to her, so he felt he had to pay, and when she insisted she pay, he freaked out). And what of the situation brought up earlier in this thread about someone who had a friend who got so drunk he passed out, and he woke up with a woman on top of him having her way with him? Was he not vulnerable, or do you simply believe that since he's a guy he would enjoy it regardless and just go with it?

As for men and women being in a comparable position, I don't think I ever said it; I certainly didn't mean to imply it. Men and women have been raised different since the dawn of time; that's fact. Men and women are treated differently in society; that's fact, too. But it doesn't mean men and women aren't both equally vulnerable.

Did I say only women should take responsibility for what happens? I'm pretty sure I didn't, and if I did or implied such, it was not what I meant. What am I doing to change the way things are? When I raise my children, I don't intend on making them color-coded or having gender-oriented toys (which will be no easy task, either); I heard in my Intro to Sociology class of an example where a parent took her baby out for a stroll with a pink blanket, and when a passerby commented on what a cute baby she was, the mother corrected them (the passerby went into a long tirade about how giving a boy a pink blanket would warp him for life; as if the baby knew or cared); I'm not saying I'd do that, although it might be fun to see the person's reaction. I would also teach my kids to treat all people as equal, like my parents taught me... well, maybe most of it was self-learned, but they certainly never encouraged me to think women were objects or to hate other races. What do I tell men? Considering what an active social life I have, nothing. The majority of my friends have usually been girls, and what few guys I've been friends with--in the past few years, anyway; I spent several years alone because I grew to despise the way humans treat each other--knew better; my best friend's mom would kill him if he was ever rude to women, and his girlfriend is twice his size and she would kill him, too.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:00 pm

Fiona: you asked for facts and sites, so I'll try and give some.

http://www.rapecrisiscenter.com/Male%20 ... Sheet.html (I don't generally trust sources of info on sites that end with .com, but it seemed reputable enough; plus, the search engine caught my eye with "While less research has been conducted about male rape victims")

http://www.interactivetheatre.org/resc/silent.html (there's a piece of info in there with statistics; more women are raped than men, which I think you and I both knew, but men are still vulnerable all the same)

http://www.safety.com/articles/male-rape.html (this one discusses male rape and mentions how people believe only women are victims of it; turns out men are just as vulnerable to rape as women)

http://www.aest.org.uk/survivors/male/m ... _rape.html (this one has a discussion on why many cases of male on male rape go unreported)

http://www.madmenunited.org/1malerape.htm (this deals with cases of men raped by women, although they could have gone with a better title)

http://www.fazeteen.com/health/articles/rape.htm (this had some facts but also dealt with women dressing provacatively and how some men believe it's an invitation)

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/leadert ... 91741.html (this is male on male rape, although the male victim in this case was 8, so I'm not sure if this really pertains to our current discussion or not)

http://www.rainbownetwork.com/Health/de ... nel=Health (this has to do with how some people find it hard to believe men can be as vulnerable as women)

http://www.jimhopper.com/male-ab/ (statistic of number of boys sexually abused seems rather high if you ask me)

http://www.pokrov.org/Articles/malerape.html (this is the last one I'll post, because I'm too lazy to keep going; this one deals with how in, "some jurisdictions there is no such crime categorized as the 'rape' of a man." If you want unfair treatment, the fact that people are willing to accept rape of women but aren't willing to accept rape of men should be proof enough)

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:51 am

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]But bars are generally considered to be a spot by people to look for dates; you may not think so, but it is a social place and many people do go to bars to hook up. As for not going to a bar alone, if it's so dangerous to go there alone if you're looking for men, why would a woman go to a bar alone if they're not interested in looking for men? If nothing else, the rejection a suitor might feel may cause him to engage in the kind of behavior you allude to, and she'd be just as in jeopardy now as she would if she were actually there to meet men. And I don't go to bars; if I drink, I drink at home, and I don't drink often.[/QUOTE]
Oops, culture clash alert.

Fiona, being British (Scottish in fact), might not agree with that, neither do I. I don't know how it is in the US, but bars (Pubs in Britain, Cafés in continental Europe, to clarify what we're talking about) are IMO places were you go to see people, meet people, talk to people, and, of course, drink (lots)

. And, during the day, to drink a cuppa and read a paper or a book. So, going in my lonesome to a bar is in fact something I do very frequently (when I'm in Europe), without any ulterior motives.
In fact one of my favorite places back home is the local hang-out of the lesbian community (they have good taste in music), and I really don't go there to "convert" them to heterosexuality.
Here in Liberia the situation is clearly different, alas. In many bars, if I go there alone, it won't take long (<1 hour) before a girl comes up and proposes some commercial transaction.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:43 am

Yeah, us Americans are a different lot; we'll pick up someone off the street, although I think over there it's considered "curb crawling." But bars here in the States are usually places where people go to meet other people; I'm sure people do go to meet other people in pubs over in Britain, but maybe it's not considered the dating hot spot it is here.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:08 am

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]Yeah, us Americans are a different lot; we'll pick up someone off the street,[/quote]

Um, speak for yourself.

There are many, many ways to meet unattached men or women that involve something a little more discriminating than bars and curbs.

It all requires is having outside interests, and finding proper venues for who share them.

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:19 am

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]Yeah, us Americans are a different lot; we'll pick up someone off the street, although I think over there it's considered "curb crawling." But bars here in the States are usually places where people go to meet other people; I'm sure people do go to meet other people in pubs over in Britain, but maybe it's not considered the dating hot spot it is here.[/QUOTE]
Welllll, I can't speak for Britain, but I can speak for Belgium. And lets put it this way: it's as much a dating spot as any place were many people gather. And of course different bars, different public. And for most bars even different time of the day/night different public. I mean some bars are known for being gathering places for over 70 years old card players. NOT the place to go for pick-ups I think

.

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:47 am

Back to topic

I noticed that my previous post could be considered spammish and certainly of topic. So to atone for that, I like to reorient the whole thread back to the original issue: the way (young) women dress, staring by men, the appropriateness of both, and the interrelatedness of it all. Do realise though I had 3 beers at lunch and thus a certain coherence might be lacking.

In my experience, when a man glances, looks or stares at an attractive woman and especially those parts of her anatomy that specifically drew his attention, the action is in most cases not a conscious decision on his part. Many are the times that I caught myself staring, or at least looking, at a good looking woman, suddenly realising that I had been distracted of what I was doing (and usually feeling at least somewhat embarrassed). Only a few hours ago I caught my eyes plunging into the cleavage of the receptionist of a hotel where I was making a reservation for visitors. And more than once it happened to me I was engrossed in a discussion with a buddy on a café terrace or in a bar when suddenly he goes silent in the middle of sentence and I see him looking over my shoulder or his head slowly moving from left to right, and then having trouble to get back to the subject. For the ladies, I can only explain it by comparing the reflex stare you might give something unusual that suddenly crops up in your field of vision, such as, let's say a bedouïn on a camel in Lower Manhattan (please, let this phrase not be interpreted as "he said attactive women are as rare as a bedouïn on a camel in Manhattan"). So, ladies, please, please, please pretty please accept that some of the looks, stares and glances we give you are reflexes rather than actions, and thus something more difficult to control, and are testimony to your attractiveness, rather than a debasement of your gender.
And honestly, I mostly feel embarrassed after such a reflex stare.

I do agree though that any action that takes it further than this "reflex stare" starting with (lewd) leers, oggling, suggestive comments going over harassment culminating in assault and rape, is squarely the responsibility of the person undertaking the action, not the (attractive) woman.

However:
- There are very few women that are attractive in any and all circumstances, even if you cloth them in sackcloth and ashes.
- The number of women that look good in modest attire is fairly limited.
- Thus it follows that to look attractive, or to cause the "reflex stares" mentioned above, the majority of women have put in some effort, varying from individual to individual, to look attractive (BTW many women look sexier in clothes than naked since clothes can hide "deficiencies" and accentuate "strong points" (think push-up bra's))

So in most cases if, as a woman, you turn heads and cause stares, it is at least partially as a result of an effort on your part to look attractive. Now I think most women can handle the occasional headturning and a casual stare, and in most circumstances they also know what level of headturning and stares they are comfortable with and dress accordingly (though once again, I disapprove of anything that develops beyond this headturning and casual staring).

But teens, and young teens especially, are at an age were hormones play havoc with their body (and mind). They are less capable of empathy than adults and even than prepubescent children because of this and can be very insecure about their body and their sexuality. The occasional stare and headturning, maybe in part caused by their way of dressing might thus not be interpreted as the fairly innocent reflex it is but be categorised or associated with the behaviour I deplored above. Moreover because of the insecurity mentioned above, combined with peer pressure and media imagery, these teens might dress more sexily/attractively/... than they are actually comfortable with. And I think the role of parents is to point this out to them.

As for the whole discussion around the unwanted attention and aggression women are subjected to "because" they are dressing "invitingly": it is an utterly deplorable fact, but it is a fact. I can and do sympathise and might even have an inkling of what it is like, but just as I have to adapt my behaviour and limit my freedom of movement here, I fear women will need to do the same as long as society doesn't change. I do not fault women, I fault us men. IMO a woman should be able to run naked from Manhattan to the Bronx with 'SLUT' painted in bright, red letters on her body, without being molested. And I'm working towards that goal in my own small way.

But please, if you show off your beauty, let us watch just a second or two, maybe three. It's admiration, truly.

Thomas77 · Post by **Thomas77** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:24 pm

[QUOTE=dragon wench]I have a question for the guys who have posted here.

How would it make any of you feel, if you were lasciviously looked up and down by a gay male?[/QUOTE]

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb and say...that has happened to me.

I remember on one 4th of July I was in downtown Phoenix with my (then) girlfriend and her family. We were walking through a huge crowd of folks when I happened to notice two guy's looking at us. Only after looking back at them for a few seconds, I realized they weren't checking out my girlfriend, they were staring at me. I turned away and kept walking, then I looked back and saw they were still checking me out. And yes, I did get angry. I felt like knocking a couple of teeth out and rearranging a couple noses.

It wasn't that I felt objectified, it was that I was being sexually admired by a couple of people of the same sex as me and that made me feel awkward and uncomfortable. Now on the other hand, had it been a couple of females, I would have felt flattered. I wouldn't have acted on it because I already had a girlfriend, but being considered attractive by the opposite sex is always slightly flattering IMO.

Now, as I stated earlier, I do believe that men staring at women is rude. I believe that men should control themselves and practice some self-control by not staring down women.

And to raise a question regarding a topic someone brought up earlier regarding who decides how girls should dress.
If you were given a job interview for a decent company. How would you dress for the interview?

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:34 pm

As to the fact someone is going out, to a bar, to be alone and drink. That boggles my mind. Why would you do that I have to ask? I know if you aren't going to be social, you are quite literally throwing money away. Bars and night clubs around here are essentially either:

A- Meat markets where guys and girls effectively sell themselves to each other in hopes of sex or a relationship

or

B- A place where older drinkers go to meet other people and enjoy the company of others.

If someone is going to a bar to drink, simply drink and not do anything but sit alone and drink, they'll save a ton of money doing so with their own supplies at home on their couch. Not to mention, if you show up at one of the clubs where it's a "meat market" you are GOING to get hit on. Disgusting as it is, everyone seems to hit on the most attractive person, and a slow trickle down effect occurs with you going down in ranks so to speak until you find someone who says "yes" instead of "no".

@ Lestat, wonderfully put if I do say so myself. That first look is often something I don't realize doing until I've noticed myself distracted from what I was doing in the first place or veering off course. After I do notice, then is when it's up to me to control what I'm doing.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:41 pm

[QUOTE=Lestat]In my experience, when a man glances, looks or stares at an attractive woman and especially those parts of her anatomy that specifically drew his attention, the action is in most cases not a conscious decision on his part...

And honestly, I mostly feel embarrassed after such a reflex stare.

The number of women that look good in modest attire is fairly limited.
- Thus it follows that to look attractive, or to cause the "reflex stares" mentioned above, the majority of women have put in some effort, varying from individual to individual, to look attractive... So in most cases if, as a woman, you turn heads and cause stares, it is at least partially as a result of an effort on your part to look attractive...[/QUOTE]
I think you're being way too apologetic for enjoying yourself when you look at women. My boyfriend would disagree with you on all of those points. He's a "butt man". He likes to look at butts. He and I laugh about it and discuss it philosophically. (He's an "artist"; the images that form in his mind when light enters is eyes are "his"; it's like looking at the apples on a tree; etc.) But it really comes down to simple enjoyment. He's aware of what he's doing, and he even goes out of his way to follow girls who catch his eye. For example, if someone passes him at a grocery store and he wants to look at her butt, he'll say, "I think I forgot something down that aisle" and turn around and follow her at a discreet distance. I honestly don't think that any harm is being done to anyone. I'm quite certain that no one is doing anything deliberately to attract his attention. Call him a "perv" and he won't mind. He will slyly reply, "All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars," which I'm sure perverts the meaning that Oscar Wilde intended.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:54 pm

@VonDondu, That would lie under the "what we do after we realize we ARE looking". I'm a lot like your boyfriend. Normally I avoid doing such things, but there's certain moods I get in where I'll go out of my way to find someone to play with and I'll do just that when I'm out. I don't know what it is, generally I tend to pick out the girl I follow that enjoys the attention and will strike up a conversation. Body language I pick up on or something maybe. It's the very rare occurance where I end up doing so with someone who makes it know she's uncomfortable or offended.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:13 pm

My boyfriend doesn't try to seek out women who would enjoy the attention, nor does he strike up a conversation with anyone who attracts his attention. His actions are limited to furtive glances. His targets are usually so unlikely, I don't think anyone expects it, sees it coming, or notices what he's doing. (Except for me, of course.) One of the main points I was trying to make is that no woman is doing anything to attract my boyfriend's attention; he is completely responsible for his own behavior. Since he admits that, I don't have a problem with it.

I'm wondering if it's necessary for me to explain how I feel about the "morality" of his actions. I think he's behaving like an animal, pure and simple, but I don't really mind; I think most animals are pretty cute, and such behavior is normally quite "innocent". Where I start to get judgmental is when people start thinking about their intentions (I judge intentions rather than actions) and start talking about their "rights" or start rationalizing their behavior as if it's morally defensible (it's neither morally wrong nor morally defensible). I draw the line when people say that women are "bringing it on themselves" when men can't control their impulses (that's when I think people are behaving immorally).

Most people on this message board are fairly young, and many might have grown up in a repressed environment. I think as you get older or become more sexually liberated, you might come to realize that even if a beautiful woman runs naked across Manhattan, all it is really is just a spectacle--funny, extraordinary, unlikely, interesting, etc.--but it's not going to cause the earth to split in half or make men go crazy. And you might realize that the reason why you're interested in looking at her has a lot more to do with you than it has to do with her presumed intention to draw attention to herself. Anyone who has to stop what he's doing because his brain locks up or because he can't handle the sight of a naked woman just needs to grow up. Like I tell my kittens, "You've got a long way to go, but you'll make it, and I'll be so proud of you for getting big."

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:21 pm

@ VonDondu: well, I'm basically a shy person, and I have seen some of the things done by the more ferocious ladies on this forum. Let's call it preemptive apologies

. I'm not really a breast person, but, and this may sound bizarre, I'm a 'smile' person. A woman might have the body of a goddess but if her looks are drenched in vinegar, she holds no attraction for me. But a somewhat chubby, smallish girl with cute, wide open smile can get me weak at the knees.
Et pour la petite histoire (off topic): I once caught a married friend of mine looking at a pretty girl and told him, jokingly, he was not supposed to do that anymore. His repartee: "It's not because you've eaten you can't look at the menu anymore".

@ Magrus: thanks for the compliment

. As for the bars: I don't have draft beer at home, so I'm forced to go to bars

. Secondly: you go there alone, but you can end up in all kinds of interesting conversations with total strangers (and I attract weird people, I can tell you). But sometimes I like to sit and observe, read a bit, talk a bit, observe, read, talk,... (and slowly and inevitably get drunk, oh well). That's one of the things I miss here most

.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:23 pm

"Repressed" is something that failed utterly on my moms wishes of me and my brother. She tried to keep us sheltered but the both of us were horribly corrupted by our father's drunken exploits and those arounds us before we hit the age of 13. Put simply, I know what I'm doing, and accept the responsibility of my actions. Not to say that quite frankly, some of the situations where I've gotten into trouble were simply off the wall accounts of someone losing their mind over something trivial or blaming the problem on me for conveniance when I hadn't done anything. That's common to everyone at one time or another I do believe though.

As far as a young woman running naked through Manhatten, I only spent about 48 hours in that city, and although I did see police ignoring two kids who were smoking a joint on a sidewalk and some other interesting things, I never witnessed that. I've grown accustomed to my female friends undressing around me and going at it with each other around me as well. Having a slew of attractive bi-sexual female friends has made me end up with odd reactions to female nudity compared to most other males I know. Then again, it's also led to some trouble, I'm comfortable with it now, and when with other people it tends to make them very uneasy.

I've gotten comfortable holding conversations with my friends while they're nude and I'm not the least bit shy. If I see a girl I happen to like, I'll say whats on my mind and that's that. I don't see a point in going around in circles and word-play I'm terribly blunt and to the point. A girl who's dressed in a skimpy outfit who happens to display the personality traits I find attractive, if I'm single I'll go talk to her which tends to make some of my friends uncomfortable at best, others terribly amused.

Again though, I'm not sure whether it's how I approach women, or the selection process and whom I happen to approach but generally I don't end up offending or making someone uncomfortable when I approach them unless it's been my intention to do so.

@ Lestat, I get drunk at home, then head out into a public place to meet and talk to people. Still cheaper.

The drunken adventures I've had are one of the things that endear me to my friends. They don't want to be the ones who take me out for fear of being mortified and embarrassed but they love hearing the stories.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:27 pm

[QUOTE=Lestat]I'm not really a breast person, but, and this may sound bizarre, I'm a 'smile' person. A woman might have the body of a goddess but if her looks are drenched in vinegar, she holds no attraction for me. But a somewhat chubby, smallish girl with cute, wide open smile can get me weak at the knees.[/QUOTE]
Oh yes, the face is one of the most important parts of the human body. If my boyfriend sees a really nice butt, he'll also try to see what the girl's face look like, because it's important.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:30 pm

[QUOTE=fable]Um, speak for yourself.

There are many, many ways to meet unattached men or women that involve something a little more discriminating than bars and curbs.

It all requires is having outside interests, and finding proper venues for who share them.[/QUOTE]
True, but getting plastered is as much an outside interest as a good book or a particular musician. And bars are just one of many places people go to hook up; I only mentioned picking up a date on the street to emphasize this fact. Also, I've known people in Britain who also thought bars were places to get dates; I had a talk with a rather depressed Scot several times over who needs motivation, and I'd tell him to go out and get a date, and his reply would always be, 'There isn't a decent enough pub around here.'

[QUOTE=VonDondu]I'm wondering if it's necessary for me to explain how I feel about the "morality" of his actions. I think he's behaving like an animal, pure and simple, but I don't really mind; I think most animals are pretty cute, and such behavior is normally quite "innocent".[/QUOTE]
I think I've been trying to say it's natural all along, but I got blasted for it. I brought up the example of the pea****s, and there's also so many other examples all over the animal kingdom where a specific part of the body may be objectified by an animal. In humans, it tends to be the breasts; a full, supple pair means the woman should be able to adequately nourish their young (but I'll never understand objectification of the bum, it boggles my mind). Given the "enlightened" era we live in, we don't like that kind of objectification, but it's completely biological. So, yes, your boyfriend is behaving like an animal; just as it was intended. You can't hold it against guys for doing that to girls; you can't fight thousands of years of evolution. I'm not saying it's not fair or not right, and I'm not saying it is right and the way it should be, I would never say that; all I ever said is this is how it is.

[QUOTE=Lestat]In my experience, when a man glances, looks or stares at an attractive woman and especially those parts of her anatomy that specifically drew his attention, the action is in most cases not a conscious decision on his part./QUOTE]
Again, I say I agree. I know I've caught myself looking at a woman's chest before, but it's doubly embarrassing for me since I'm not even attracted to them. I don't know why I would look, I certainly never want to or intend to, but I know I have. In fact, I'm probably the rare

guy who is attracted to personality and intelligence over appearance. I fall harder more for someone who has a great sense of humor and good mind (I do have an example where this was true; I fell head over heals for someone with a very cynical bent, a penchant for sarcasm, and who I considered very smart, but who also turned out to be fatter than I am [not that I'm a huge porker], but I was in love all the same). And besides, looks fade with time, but a mind--until you reach senility--lasts a lifetime.

And as for the original topic at hand--and also coming back to a statement I made very early in the discussion that drew some heat--the reason I said girls (and guys, too) should dress plainly is because I think so. There. Why? I've heard stories of what women go through to get dressed up, and I've heard of women who put on uncomfortable high heels and easy-rip stockings to look good. They also lavish their faces in make-up, pluck their brows (okay, that one's totally necessary; no one needs bushy brows), have bacteria injected into their faces... Need I go on? I'd prefer a world where guys and girls didn't have to go through so much effort just to get dressed, and look good. Why is it a woman has to throw on tight clothes to think she looks good? Why is it the style that women have to wear provocative clothing in public? Baggy shirts and baggy pants all around, and nice, comfortable sneakers.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:54 pm

Two things, first off I definately go for girls who ignore a lot of the stuff that a lot of people consider "necessary", I.E.-make-up, fancy clothes, anything that takes more than 30 minutes to shower and get ready to go somewhere IMHO is RIDICULOUS.

Second, a good personality and intelligence is downright imperative in anyone I consider a relationship with. Frankly, I can't even stand purely sexual partnerships with someone who is lacking a similar mental state and personality as mine. I need that sense of humor and twisted ideals that I have. Otherwise things get very awkward.

Oh, and about the high heels... really, there's not need. Half the ladies who wear them can't even walk properly in them anyways and believe me, that's FAR from attractive.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:56 pm

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]I think I've been trying to say it's natural all along, but I got blasted for it.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that you didn't take the "men are pigs" angle far enough. Instead of merely saying "It's natural for men to look at women", you could have said it's just like when one cat sniffs another cat's butt. From that perspective, I think most of the women here would have agreed with you.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:31 pm

Well said, Lestat.

That "reflex stare" puts it nicely.

And yes, just like you I get embarassed when I find myself staring.

In Asia, there are public transports that are small and people are seated at the side of the vehicles facing the opposite side.

When I get to notice that a certain lady is seated in such a way that things are quite revealing, I find myself getting embarassed and make sure I look the other way.

Why?

Because chances are, the other passengers would likely look at me (especially the other female passengers) and see if I'm taking a peek.

One time in a cramped mini van, I offered my jacket straight off to the lady right in front of me. Without even telling her right away, I gently put my jacket on top of her lap, aptly covering that space between her legs and skirt. I politely told her that she would need it for a while.

I got a nice smile and a thank you.

As for women and young girls wearing what they wear, I guess they feel comfy and good about themselves (assuming they weren't wearing it out of necessity, such as uniforms or work-related clothes) though they know that there would be someone out there "appreciating her the wrong way."

I remember CE saying that she wears her "bimbo" clothes not to attract attention, rather, she feels good about herself. I must say, this woman KNOWS how to wear clothes.

I guess that "reflex stare" is pardonable.

I think the issue is, what happens next.