malkavian fire

[Anita46]

I can't escape the fire in the mansion...there seems to be no way out once i jump the balcony...Every entrance either has flames or i die from the stupid fire-engulfed ghouls!!! I have a guide to the game and it says to jump the balcony and take the door on the left...I did that, and still no luck. It mentions a straight path (taking all hallways to the end) until you find the open window to escape..Ahhhck. Help!

[Melchiah]

After you jump off the balcony you have to let the flaming panicking ghoul kick in the door to the left before killing the ghoul, after that just go whichever way isn't engulfed by flames, remember: fire is bad!

[Lestat]

Every entrance either has flames or i die from the stupid fire-engulfed ghouls!!!

Those burning madmen can be an ache in the backside. So I believe that is your main problem. The fire won't spread so I advise you to take it easy. Sneak if you must. And shoot 'em down, rather than fight them (one shot with shotgun usually does it).

[shana]

spoiler

Also, remember to check your back!! Once you shoot one burning guy, two more will come running up behind you.

[Faust]

This can be a pain, particularly as fire tends to induce lag. When you jump down from the balcony one of the fire ghouls will attack you. You have to be ready to swing your axe or shoot him immediately. Keep swinging or shooting even if you don't have a great shot, you often will get lucky. One decent attack normally will kill the monster.

If you have dominate or dementation, they can be very useful in this part of the game as well. So use them liberally. Celerity can also be incredibly useful in this part of the game.

Keep in mind there are a few spots where you won't get attacked. For instance, after the first room (which has 2 enflamed ghouls), there is a lull in the fighting. The fire will not spread, so take some time to heal up if you need to.

But, as others have said, just pace yourself. Save in different slots if you need to. And, finally, just try to remember where the ghouls are popping out at you in case you have to redo it.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

I find that the flaming crazies visible from the balcony are best disposed of by jumping onto the balcony rail and shooting them from above (except the one that goes through the door, of course). After that, it's all shotgun 101: A load of buckshot in the ear will always seriously cramp your style. I actually sneak out of the blaze, simply because when crouched, your ranged skill is a great deal more stable and it's far more important that you shoot the torches before they set you on fire than it is to rush out of the building. As others have noted, until the explosion you pretty much have all the time in the world. I know it takes a lot of nerve to be slow and careful when exiting a burning building - the reflexive urge is to charge out at top speed. Remember your grade school teachers, though: "Don't panic. Form a line and walk calmly out of the Blazing Inferno of Death." (What? That was just me?)

However, keep Faust's advice well and truly in mind. Check your six frequently. The ones in front are pop-corn. It's the ones in back that'll get you. As with Real Life, it's the ones you don't expect that you have to watch out for. Once you jump the table blocking the hall, you're more or less clear (except for the fire, explosions, jumping out a third story window, yadda yadda).

Oh, and peripheral to the conversation at hand: Can any of you Angelinos tell me if they actually put Guacamole on hamburgers in LA? For a canuck, that sounds vaguely like putting mustard on watermelon (eeewwww). For my money, zombies aside, *that* is the creepiest part of *this* game. Zombies? Phht. The local malls are full of them. No big.

[Celacena]

From the balcony, shoot the flaming ghoul - it doesn't take much.
then save.
jump down. coruch. you can open the left hand door, but a flaming ghoul comes at you. I find a shotgun blast at near point blank range stops him settling you on fire. the fire has reduced the health of the ghouls, so when he comes back, shoot him again and blast him well away.
there is another in there - you can stop crouching and run or you can blast him to the other side of the room and then wait or run.
after that it is upstairs and sneaking is best. unfortunately, there is a flaming ghoul just outside the doorway who sees you by the light of his own flames. shotgun blast again. problem is that 2 more come from behind you at that point. so after you have fired blast 1 stop couching and leg it.
run past the flaming ghoul and through the doorway. there is another FG waiting for you - you can jump on a table and shoot it from there or just keep running - I never get burned to a cinder doing that even if he hits me, but I do sometimes take damage. you run round a corner and when the building is rocked by an explosion, you are almost out. open a door and then use/jump out of the left hand window. it cuts to a scene of you flying out of the window and landing in the garden by the gate where the taxi awaits.

[ForgottenChilde]

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]Oh, and peripheral to the conversation at hand: Can any of you Angelinos tell me if they actually put Guacamole on hamburgers in LA? For a canuck, that sounds vaguely like putting mustard on watermelon (eeewwww). For my money, zombies aside, *that* is the creepiest part of *this* game. Zombies? Phht. The local malls are full of them. No big.[/QUOTE]
Lol.... Because it's good? I used to like it...
Anywho, back on topic... Flaming ghouls suck... I <3 Godmode.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

People keep calling them 'flaming ghouls', but are they actually ghouls? They die just like ghouls, of course, but ghouls die just like humans. Does Grout actually drive his own ghouls crazy (and make SO MANY of them)? Or does he just kidnap riff-raff off the street, cage them, and drive them insane (which a Malkavian would have little trouble doing)?

I think particularly of the cells in his Inner Sanctum, and of Heather. Very shortly after you make her a Ghoul, Heather is ready, willing, and able to do pretty much anything you might ask of her. There is no need to cage her. She is already in a cage - eventually the Blood Bond - she is caged by her own feelings, as contrived and/or imposed as they might be.

Given that Grout has to imprison his subjects while driving them mad, are they ghouls? Could they be? If they were, would there be any need for the cell-blocks? I think here of John - the one who "knawed his own arm off, like a feral rodent" (to quote Grout directly). Could a ghoul, even an insane one, actually choose to escape his master? And succeed? I know that you can release your ghoul from your service, but that is not their choice, and clearly John's escape was not of Grout's choosing.

Isaac's goon in Hollywood is frequently referred to as a ghoul, but he must be a vampire. When you kill him, he turns to ash. Ghouls don't do that. So is the use of the term 'ghoul' in this sense more a case of simply calling any human associated with a vampire a 'ghoul'?

[Lestat]

So is the use of the term 'ghoul' in this sense more a case of simply calling any human associated with a vampire a 'ghoul'?

IMO the madmen are not ghouls, for all the reasons Yrth quotes The only ghouls you (could) encounter in the game are AFAIK:
Mercurio (Lacroix's?)
Vandal (Therese's)
Knox Harrington (Tung's)
Patty (some Anarch Toreador's)
Paul (dead) (some other Anarch's)
Romero (Isaac's)
and of course Heather.
All of these are special agents, personal servants or special friend of the vampire who created them, not some foot soldiers. I think vampires, even Malkavians, would consider their blood a bit too precious to create just randomly a large number of ghouls.
But the madmen look ghoulish in the general, non-VtM, meaning, maybe that's why people call them ghouls.

[ForgottenChilde]

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]People keep calling them 'flaming ghouls', but are they actually ghouls? They die just like ghouls, of course, but ghouls die just like humans. Does Grout actually drive his own ghouls crazy (and make SO MANY of them)? Or does he just kidnap riff-raff off the street, cage them, and drive them insane (which a Malkavian would have little trouble doing)?

I think particularly of the cells in his Inner Sanctum, and of Heather. Very shortly after you make her a Ghoul, Heather is ready, willing, and able to do pretty much anything you might ask of her. There is no need to cage her. She is already in a cage - eventually the Blood Bond - she is caged by her own feelings, as contrived and/or imposed as they might be.

Given that Grout has to imprison his subjects while driving them mad, are they ghouls? Could they be? If they were, would there be any need for the cell-blocks? I think here of John - the one who "knawed his own arm off, like a feral rodent" (to quote Grout directly). Could a ghoul, even an insane one, actually choose to escape his master? And succeed? I know that you can release your ghoul from your service, but that is not their choice, and clearly John's escape was not of Grout's choosing.

Isaac's goon in Hollywood is frequently referred to as a ghoul, but he must be a vampire. When you kill him, he turns to ash. Ghouls don't do that. So is the use of the term 'ghoul' in this sense more a case of simply calling any human associated with a vampire a 'ghoul'?[/QUOTE]
Malkavian ghouls, like their Kindred masters, do initially possess a sort of... madness (having shared the Kindred's blood, which is the sorce of the insanity, usually). However, I do believe that the "experiments" Grout was performing on said ghouls was, in fact, the result of their utter maniety (for lack of a better term.)

[Faust]

[QUOTE=Lestat]IMO the madmen are not ghouls, for all the reasons Yrth quotes The only ghouls you (could) encounter in the game are AFAIK:
Mercurio (Lacroix's?)
Vandal (Therese's)
Knox Harrington (Tung's)
Patty (some Anarch Toreador's)
Paul (dead) (some other Anarch's)
Romero (Isaac's)
and of course Heather.
All of these are special agents, personal servants or special friend of the vampire who created them, not some foot soldiers. I think vampires, even Malkavians, would consider their blood a bit too precious to create just randomly a large number of ghouls.
But the madmen look ghoulish in the general, non-VtM, meaning, maybe that's why people call them ghouls.[/QUOTE]

You could probably add "Skeeter" to this (Isaac's), and its somewhat unclear if Romero is Isaac's, though it's probable.

Still, the practice of creating "ghouls" just to have foot soldiers is a fairly common one among vampires, particularly one suffering from issues of paranoia like Grout. Ghouls are not always special agents. In fact, ghouls are often just servants for their vampire master. Historically in L.A. Anarch gangs have often created significant number of ghouls in order to pad their ranks, and provide additional foot soldiers.

Regardless, these could just be poor souls that Grout has experimented on, tortured into his service, and warped beyond recognition. Though, the ghoul explanation seemed more immediately plausible to me, and might also explain some of the weeping (withdrawel) going on. As Forgotten Child mentioned, its fairly common (as you'll see if you're a Malkavian and have Heather) for ghouls to take on some of the madness of their masters (as they take in their blood).

[Lestat]

In fact, ghouls are often just servants for their vampire master. Historically in L.A. Anarch gangs have often created significant number of ghouls in order to pad their ranks, and provide additional foot soldiers.

OK, but we are talking about several anarchs creating what, maybe 5 or even 10 ghouls each? Of which they suspect maybe half to survive? And maybe just needed for the duration of a battle.
If you count all the madmen you encounter in his Mansion, you get easily up to 20 and if you add the madwomen double that. Created by one vampire, to be maintained with a regular drink of vampire blood. I do not doubt that some ghouls are created with more menial tasks in mind, but it's the sheer number of loonies that makes me doubt the ghoul theory.

[Lady_Lithium]

[QUOTE=Lestat]OK, but we are talking about several anarchs creating what, maybe 5 or even 10 ghouls each? Of which they suspect maybe half to survive? And maybe just needed for the duration of a battle.
If you count all the madmen you encounter in his Mansion, you get easily up to 20 and if you add the madwomen double that. Created by one vampire, to be maintained with a regular drink of vampire blood. I do not doubt that some ghouls are created with more menial tasks in mind, but it's the sheer number of loonies that makes me doubt the ghoul theory.[/QUOTE]

Claudius Giovanni (clanbook giovanni) has more than 100 ghouls, so 20 isn't that implausable. Ghouls only need to be given blood once a month, so 20 wouldn't put much strain on a primogen like Grout.

[Faust]

[QUOTE=Lady_Lithium]Claudius Giovanni (clanbook giovanni) has more than 100 ghouls, so 20 isn't that implausable. Ghouls only need to be given blood once a month, so 20 wouldn't put much strain on a primogen like Grout.[/QUOTE]


I've never even conceived of counting, but are there only 20 ghouls in the mansion? 20-30 is certainly an extreme but doable number for a clearly paranoid vampire. As Lady Lithium reminds us, ghouls only require blood once a month, and even among "newer" Cainites there are examples of 10-15 ghouls be sustained at a time. You could even extend the argument further and assume that some of the ghouls are dhampirs, or children of ghouls.

Regardless, I'm going to continue to assume they were ghouls. Their behavior and the deep sorrow that so many are feeling seems to designate a connection to their master that can only be explained in that way. It's possible they are simply insane experiments of Grout, but it just seems less likely to me. This is video-game land, and the dynamics of the game usually mean that certain limits are stretched in the VtM world. Fortunately, the stretches are usually not as extreme as Redemption (where you'd fight 30 vampires in a mission...).

[shana]

[QUOTE=Lady_Lithium]Claudius Giovanni (clanbook giovanni) has more than 100 ghouls, so 20 isn't that implausable. Ghouls only need to be given blood once a month, so 20 wouldn't put much strain on a primogen like Grout.[/QUOTE]


If this is true, this can help us figure out the timeline for this game (as discussed in another thread, that I can't remember the title of). If ghouls only need blood once a month, and you feed Heather 3 times in the game, the game must take place in a three month period. Which means the newspaper is a bi-weekly publication, and that you can get money from Venus every two weeks. I know this has nothing to do with Malkavian Fire, so please forgive me.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

You have no need of apology, Shana. I was thinking the same thing myself. Game time is two months plus, because that's how often Heather gets desperate for a 'fix'.

[Lestat]

[QUOTE=Faust]I've never even conceived of counting, but are there only 20 ghouls in the mansion? 20-30 is certainly an extreme but doable number for a clearly paranoid vampire. As Lady Lithium reminds us, ghouls only require blood once a month, and even among "newer" Cainites there are examples of 10-15 ghouls be sustained at a time. You could even extend the argument further and assume that some of the ghouls are dhampirs, or children of ghouls. [/QUOTE]
Well I said about 20 madmen and about 20 madwomen, which makes it 40. But I'll be heading their again one of these nights and will try to do an exact loony-count.
And Grout is a fairly recent Cainite, even if he is a primogen (living in the second half of the 19th century, embraced in the late 19th century?). Moreover there are the cells, the masks and such and other things that Grout describes that indicate that his subjects are less than willing and not really loving of their master.
I do not know what happens to ghouls if they are not "maintained" (don't get their monthly dose), but I'm willing to consider that that is what Grout was doing: feeding test subjects his blood but then not maintaining them (or only some of them).

EDIT: Just adding how I got my figures:
8-10 flaming madmen in the last sequence, at least 10 madmen during previous encounters.
4 madwomen in each of the two large, many-doored halls (8)
6 madwomen in the large lab room (with key)
4 in the mirrored rooms with the hearth (secret passage)
for a minimum of 18 + assorted encounters throughout
I think 40 is a conservative estimate.

[Lestat]

[QUOTE=Lestat]Well I said about 20 madmen and about 20 madwomen, which makes it 40. But I'll be heading their again one of these nights and will try to do an exact loony-count. [/QUOTE]

Did the count:
Malkavian 2: 16 Madwomen & 7 Madmen (of which one already dead)
Malkavian 3: 13 Madwomen (of which 2 already dead) & 7 Madmen
Malkavian 4: 9 Flaming Madmen.
For a total of 29 Madwomen and 23 Madmen or 52 Loonies.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

OK, given that Grout has, possibly, 49 living ghouls, and has to feed them once a month, and each ghoul costs a blood point to feed, that's 49 blood points a month, or a lot of ghouls in the midst of withdrawal.

So, even doing nothing vampiric whatsoever in the course of a month, Grout would have to drain a half-dozen humans dry just to maintain his cattle.

This scenario is looking increasingly unlikely.