Originally posted by Gruntboy: Letters after your name don't impress me. Did I mention I did War Studies at King's College London? Put that in your pipe and smoke it, MA-boy!
Mutual alumni! My God, what a small world. I'm so jealous. War Studies was so much closer to the bar than the History Dept.
Heh. I don't want to appear offended, but I am weary of academics who focus on one's language more than on one's argument. What I'm saying is that Keldorn, the inquisitor or crusader or "good" citizen or what-have-you, representative of the Lawful Good alignment, is actually a nazi. In turn, I think the good folks at Black Isle meant for us to get these impressions. Viconia, a neutral evil drow, is played out as a total bitch, unquestionably, but at the same time the romance she develops with the protagonist turns her character into something more of a heroine than almost any of the other characters. We rescue her from oppressors throughout the game, and that's important. As some of you have already mentioned in these threads, I also believe we may see an intriguing story develop around Viconia in future expansions or sequels, mayhaps we'll discover just how many people Viconia has truly ticked off throughout her turbulent life; or maybe we're just suckers for her sappy life story, who knows. Anyhoo, do you not see how there can be serious implications of a neutral evil heroine? That's why D&D is frowned upon by over-bearing parents; the authors of the game recognize that the "evil" folk of the world are just as significant and real and valuable as the "good". In fact I daresay that the neutral and evil alignments are far more realistic and common than the good. All you people out there who fancy yourselves of the good alignment, think again. It's highly unlikely. The D&D website has a survey that one can take to help determine what one's alignment should be in PnP modules. Check it out. The thing is as bloody Judeo-Christian as it gets, and if you choose the most ideal or "good" answers then trust me, you're kidding yourselves, because when push comes to shove we're all a bunch of yellow bastards looking out for ourselves.
I see the right, and I approve it too; condemn the wrong and yet the wrong pursue.
Just an item of interest. An Australian school announced yesterday that "Harry Potter" books were banned from the school library because of their mentions of demons, wizardry etc. No mention was made of AD&D - I presume they vanished during an earlier bookburning. It seems you can find evil anywhere if you look with a sufficiently inquisitive eye.
Isn't that a little circular hermetic? You say (roughly), "take the quiz and find out your alignment." Then you say, "you'll find out that there are many more evil and neutral people in the world." Then you say, "if you answer all good you are fooling yourself." I don't think that proves anything.
I'm definitely (neutral to lawful) good. I always strive to look out for others interests as much as my own. I think most people on this board are some form of good. My evidence is their kindness and consideration, even in a forum where no one knows you and your actions are almost anonymous.
Tieing this into the topic (I enjoyed your posts Gruntboy and Phil, who knew you'd be fellow alumni?), AD&D does not portray a real version of life, but it is FANTASY and that is why religious fanatics shouldn't waste their efforts on it.
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." -President George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001
Originally posted by Phil: Ah, but if it wasn't for the Moors in Spain and Portugal, you wouldn't have all of that wonderful architecture.
The Crusades in Spain were the first actual crusade, although not called as such, begun by Charlemagne around AD800 and immortalised in Le Chanson de Roland (although the true event this was based on was probably an attack by Basques and not Moors). The later Crusades in Spain have the equally wonderful Poem of The Cid as a source. Available in Penguin Paperbook from Amazon.co.uk
I dont need you to tell me what I kown since my 8 Year in school, Phil, and we get rid of the moors in 15th century(we here get rid of them 2 centuries before) we were discovering new places before brittain was capable of navige outside the Thames river.
And I sugest you come here, where do WE have those examples of architecture?
our architecture does take SOME parts of moorish architecture but OUR architecture is rather unique.
Now tell me What types of moorish architecture are in here.
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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Hmmm...I think someone here is plagued with non-sequiturs, and it may be me, but i think, Doltan, you just misunderstood me. There is no such thing as alignment in reality. I was poking at your hearts when I said that most of you should realize that you're not "good". The good alignment is simply not realistic. We are all looking out for ourselves, it's the basic motivation for our species' survival and evolution. When we try to help others, regardless of whether we're being genuine (can anyone out there define "genuine"?) in our aid, we're still making some sort of an impression on others. What makes Keldorn "good"? Is it his genuine concern for doing good, or is it because as a paladin he has to follow certain rules of conduct that would adhere to the "lawful good"? Gimme a break, man. Noone can be genuinely good without being totally self-righteous at the same time. Starting to see the light?
I see the right, and I approve it too; condemn the wrong and yet the wrong pursue.
hermetic sound like Samuel Clemmens in his early essays....why not just quote him directly and be done with it...
...but I agree in part, the person who gives to charity doesn't do so to help the less fortunate. He does so because it makes HIM feel good to help. The person who throws himself in front of a train to save a life does not do so to save a life: he does so either 1) out of instinct, or 2) a subconscious decision or knowledge that he would not be able to live with himself, figuratively, due to guilt-driven self-questioning. But this "he" of which I speak is the Masses, and exceptions are everywhere and prove the rule. This self-serving nature of humans is fundamentally accurate, though for some it is difficult to get past the morality veneer because it is a not a comfortable truth.
I still think D&D and Baldur's Gate are a scourge of evil and pestilence that must be banished from the land 'ere all of our children make sacrifices of us and devour our flesh in some sadistic, Boo-induced ritual.
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If you afraid of the answers, stop asking frightening questions
Tsk tsk Drakron, did you grow up in Salazar's regime? Seems you believe whole-heartedly in Portuguese propaganda, man. I'm Portuguese myself and I know full well what it was that Portugal (or rather the Jesuits) accomplished during her Golden Age. In defense of our homeland, I choose not to attack the history of the empire where the sun didn't set. Not to mention the fact that Portugal enjoyed only about a century and a half of prosperity before the nation plummeted into feudal misery. Such blatant patriotic attacks only portray us as envious and insecure about our history and our place in the world. Let it suffice that we're the best damn footballers in Europe. Heh, any of you Brits have any objection to that?
I see the right, and I approve it too; condemn the wrong and yet the wrong pursue.
Originally posted by Drakron Du´Dark: I dont need you to tell me what I kown since my 8 Year in school, Phil, and we get rid of the moors in 15th century(we here get rid of them 2 centuries before) we were discovering new places before brittain was capable of navige outside the Thames river.
Hey, steady on! I'm not quite sure how you could've taken offence at what I wrote, but if it makes you feel better, I'm sorry. Geez.
And I sugest you come here, where do WE have those examples of architecture?
our architecture does take SOME parts of moorish architecture but OUR architecture is rather unique.
Now tell me What types of moorish architecture are in here.
This is my point. I never said there was any Moorish architecture in Spain. But Iberia has this wonderful mixed and, yes, UNIQUE style of all its own. Without their influence, that would never have happened.
Originally posted by hermetic: The good alignment is simply not realistic. We are all looking out for ourselves, it's the basic motivation for our species' survival and evolution.
Try 'The Selfish Gene' by..er, well look it up on Amazon. Great book.
Noone can be genuinely good without being totally self-righteous at the same time. Starting to see the light?
Why? How do you define self-righteous? Surely that's almost like saying 'No-one can be good except those sickening, mightier than thou, good people'?
What about people who work all their lives for charities in the Third World? Aren't they good? Was the late Mother Theresa not good? Just because you're a hard bitten cynic, doesn't mean good doesn't exist.
[NEXT SECTION IS PURE PHILOSOPHY AND NOT A DIG]
I sometimes think that maybe people who say good doesn't exist can't see the good in themselves and thereby assume that no-one else has it either. Otherwise, it would indicate that they were somehow less 'virtuous' than others. Could be an ego thing, in the freudian sense.
Foul: It's really comes down to an old argument over free action (not the BGII spell!). Do we ever really make a decision, or are all decisions made based on a set of circumstances and beliefs. I tend to think that people can choose to be good and do good deeds, regardless of whether it is self serving -- whether or not you have a tangible benefit or just a feeling of satisfaction. But this isn't an argument that we can resolve here -- it's been argued about for thousands of years. Personally, I believe in free will, in the fact that I have a choice to do good (it's not all about chemistry). I do good deeds not because I feel good about it (I don't always, sometimes I'm sad about other people's conditions), but because they need to be done.
hermetic: As for no one being genuinely good without being self righteous... Well, I don't think I know what you mean (please feel free to explain it more), but I'm pretty sure I disagree. I've met plenty of good people in my life that often go about their works without any praise or acknowledgment, and certainly without trying to show other people that their ways are superior.
According to the Cambridge (online) Dictionary:
self-righteous (adjective) believing that you are better and more moral than other people, often expressed in an annoying or offensive way
They don't fit this definition.
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." -President George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001
I agree with your last part Phil, I just avoided saying it. I want people to be able to freely discuss an issue, but I always worry when people take positions like "everyone is really selfish, they just wouldn't admit it," or "everyone would steal if they could get away with it," or even "everyone pees in the shower, they just pretend that they don't." I'd rather assume that hermetic actually does good actions, he just doesn't think of them in the same way that I do.
[This message has been edited by Doltan (edited 01-25-2001).]
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." -President George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001
Two points:
1). I was born after 1974, if I was born during salazar time, you can bet that I will be right beside the MFA.
2). Portugues and spanish discoverys are mosty forgeten these days,I like to remind that well before Brittain had a "empire were the sun never sets" do did we, and that line was stolen from our old Friend Filip the second, first of portugal. I hope that you still remenber your history.Besides just because I sill remenber my history lessons I am NOT a right wing extermist, I dislike what salazar did to my country, and I also dislike what did our "english friend" the duque of Wellington and the general Beresford, we almost lost your independance to became a Brittish prepectorade right after the napolionic invasions.
And saying that I am spanish, were did you get that idea, we fight the spanish for your independance in too many wars, That was a insult to us all a century ago. And there IS a example or moorish arctitecture in spain.
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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche
[This message has been edited by Drakron Du´Dark (edited 01-25-2001).]
Your points are all well-taken and valid. The best way for me to explain myself is to ask for you all to transcend language for a moment. The point I'm trying to make pertains to the message that D&D, perhaps inadvertently, provides us with regards to alignment. Doesn't the "good" alignment seem suspect to you? I'll admit that real-life "good" people do exist, but they're really no different than "neutral" people, because at times we can be "good" and at other times we can be "neutral". We're never "evil" because the whole concept of evil is relative and shamelessly Judeo-Christian. I'm sure Hitler didn't sit in his bunker at night and think about how "evil" he was. And the "lawful" folk, although they may be respectable and courteous citizens, really don't have a clue about their place within the laws. I think the most straight-laced I could possibly be would be "neutral good". See, I'm not a cynic, and I do believe I can be "good". But it is self-righteous (and I won't bother defining that because I'm transcending any childish language-based arguments) to claim always to be "good". It's simply not true, "good" people of that sort do not exist. Keldorn's behavioUr is anything but lawful good when he persecutes Viconia.
I see the right, and I approve it too; condemn the wrong and yet the wrong pursue.
Now wait a minute here, I step away for a few hours and the conversation turns into a debate about the existence of absolutes? No alignment was intended to designate an absolute value system, and really only tries to categorize and add depth to the RP experience.
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