Sorry, I meant to address my prior post to nightFIRE.
-Polaris
Debt to Sarevok
It is my opinion that you do not owe Severok anything he was responsible for his own life say when Severok was first wandering the city and he came to a fork in the road and went left and met a archmage who took him in as a student while if he had taken right he would have been killed by a blood thirsty ogre who says you would have made all the same choices such as which road to take for that can make all the diffrence quoting famous poetry 
The Drow Rule Supreme!! We are the true owners of the Underdark!!
It seems the problem many people have is with the semantics of the case. Had the Solar worded her question differently (as others have exemplified in their posts) would it change your viewpoint on the situation? (probably not) As I said earlier there is no right or wrong answer to the question (regardless of how many times you vehemently insist the opposing viewpoint is unequivocally wrong). Saying you owe Sarevok nothing will not drop your rep to 1 or change everyone’s alignment to Chaotic Evil. The only effect it has is giving you a different Bhaalspawn ability if you’ve installed the patch (and it’s not as if any of the extra abilities suck). So I fail to see why you’re so determined to bend everyone into your line of thinking. If someone else feels they owe Sarevok a debt to repay, then why not let them?Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>I remember what you said, but that WASN'T the question that you were asked.
You were asked if you felt you had a DEBT to Sarevok. The answer is clearly NO, but that answer is considered 'evil'.</STRONG>
I don’t subscribe to the victim mentality of our current culture, but it’s important to understand that most criminals don’t develop in a vacuum. They’re usually the product of an abusive/destitute household and learn their behavior from their parental figures (i.e. an abused child who grows up to abuse his own children). The individual is not exempt from responsibility, though we should remember that they themselves were once victims.Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>I really got mad because it is this sort of philosophical nonsense that IMO is the cause of a lot of our real world problems (i.e. the professional victim).</STRONG>
Notice that Sarevok himself makes no claims of you owing him anything. He offers information on the Pocket Plane in exchange for a new lease on life, but doesn’t try to browbeat you into taking him because his foster father beat him or you had nicer home then he did. Sarevok has an existential quality about him, and neither asks nor seeks sympathy. But that doesn’t mean we turn our back on him or ignore the issues that lead to his current cycle of behavior. By accepting the fact that Sarevok made his own choices, but his environment made it difficult (if not impossible given his Bhaal taint) for him to choose otherwise, we can start to mend his battered psyche. And Sarevok is not beyond redemption (no one is).
[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
I felt that Sarevok’s change from evil to good was very well handled. Coddling him won’t change his outlook, neither will b*tching at him. You must talk to him with an honest and even-handed approach before he’ll begin to come over. It also supports my earlier thesis on him and his lack of a positive support structure in his life. All he needed was an honorable atmosphere and people he could trust. Sarevok will always be a bit of a dark horse, but now his veracity is unquestionable to me. And his ending could be the set up for new spin off series in Kara-Tur (his darker outlook and troubled past puts him in same category as Wolverine, Batman, Xena, and a variety of other popular modern heroes).Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>If you have dragged Sarevok kicking and screaming onto the path of Good, what do you think of the way it was handled?</STRONG>
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Kayless,
How *dare* you imply that my position would have been the same regardless of how the question was worded. I take extreem umbrage because I already have SAID differently (or didn't you bother to *read* what I wrote?!)
The FACT is, however, there IS a right answer to the question posed. Do you owe Sarevok anything:
The answer is NO.
The is an excepted tenant in almost all western philosophy *unless* you belong to the 'professional victim' clique. You say you do not, but your posts give a different message.
There IS no debt. Should we be sympathetic? Perhaps. That does NOT and ever WILL imply debt...and since that is an 'evil' choice in the game, I strongly object. Of course *you* will not change your mind regardless of why I (or for that matter ethical philosophers since Socrates) say, so I suppose I shouldn't bother.
-Polaris
How *dare* you imply that my position would have been the same regardless of how the question was worded. I take extreem umbrage because I already have SAID differently (or didn't you bother to *read* what I wrote?!)
The FACT is, however, there IS a right answer to the question posed. Do you owe Sarevok anything:
The answer is NO.
The is an excepted tenant in almost all western philosophy *unless* you belong to the 'professional victim' clique. You say you do not, but your posts give a different message.
There IS no debt. Should we be sympathetic? Perhaps. That does NOT and ever WILL imply debt...and since that is an 'evil' choice in the game, I strongly object. Of course *you* will not change your mind regardless of why I (or for that matter ethical philosophers since Socrates) say, so I suppose I shouldn't bother.
-Polaris
*Sigh* I suggest you take a moment to calm yourself the next time you feel like posting in anger. You have stated repeatedly that you feel you owe Sarevok nothing (even in your last post) and so I fail to see that implying what you yourself have already admitted (that this is your opinion and you’re sticking to it) is so terribly offensive to you. I find your constant insinuation that western philosophy is somehow more morally correct then eastern beliefs (i.e. Buddhism and Karmatic debt) far more questionable. Besides, the fact that you can get so dreadfully agitated over a mere computer game does not bode well for your case, and lossing your temper only weakens your position. The designers of the game obviously felt differently then you do and if you wish you can take this up with them on the Black Isle message board (where they frequently respond to questions). Evidently there are more diverging views on this issue then you would seem to think (at least among the dozens of designers who crafted Throne of Bhaal). Keeping a cool head might better serve your purpose and open your eyes to the validity of opinions other then your own.
[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Kayless,
Now you are being condescending. In ethical philosophy (and the 'good' vs 'evil' axis of AD&D IS based on western not eastern philosophy so you have no case), there are some things that are generally agreed upon.
Philosophy while not a *science* is NOT just a matter of 'opinion' either. If you have the time (or the intelligence which I doubt), read the Euthrophyro sometime. Until then, you simply will not understand that the designers were WRONG. You CAN NOT owe a debt to for a decision someone else has made.
Deal with it.
-Polaris
Now you are being condescending. In ethical philosophy (and the 'good' vs 'evil' axis of AD&D IS based on western not eastern philosophy so you have no case), there are some things that are generally agreed upon.
Philosophy while not a *science* is NOT just a matter of 'opinion' either. If you have the time (or the intelligence which I doubt), read the Euthrophyro sometime. Until then, you simply will not understand that the designers were WRONG. You CAN NOT owe a debt to for a decision someone else has made.
Deal with it.
-Polaris
Ah, another *letter of the law vs. spirit of the law* debate. Let me throw some oil into the fire...
I, too, felt that the wording used was awkward and didn't truly convey what the designers intended. (This isn't the first dialog in which I've seen this problem, either - the designers really ought to take some composition courses. )
I viewed the question posed by Solar as more of a disguised version of the old question, "Am I my brother's keeper?", ie: should I take responsibility for him and try to redeem him.
I, too, felt that the wording used was awkward and didn't truly convey what the designers intended. (This isn't the first dialog in which I've seen this problem, either - the designers really ought to take some composition courses.
)I viewed the question posed by Solar as more of a disguised version of the old question, "Am I my brother's keeper?", ie: should I take responsibility for him and try to redeem him.
There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...
What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, ... to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.
What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, ... to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.
@Polaris: Again I advise you to refrain from posting while angry. You’ve gone from seeming like a person with a reasonable viewpoint to looking like an immature child. Who are you to say that the professionals who designed such an excellent series of games are wrong just because their opinions differ from your perceived notion of morality? Why must your beliefs be universal? I suggest you get out and see the world a bit before you go around acting like the supreme arbiter of morality in universe. If you had truly studied philosophy (instead of learning to vaguely quote the works of others) you’d have learned to keep an open mind about things.
Also, claiming that D&D has no eastern elements is blatantly false. Haven’t you ever heard of Kara-Tur? I played an entire campaign in this setting several years ago. Baldur’s Gate even features a few characters from there. You should actually bother to do some research before making sweeping accusations about the content of material you obviously are not very familiar with. I would suggest you reign in your temper and try to communicate like a civilized adult.
[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
Also, claiming that D&D has no eastern elements is blatantly false. Haven’t you ever heard of Kara-Tur? I played an entire campaign in this setting several years ago. Baldur’s Gate even features a few characters from there. You should actually bother to do some research before making sweeping accusations about the content of material you obviously are not very familiar with. I would suggest you reign in your temper and try to communicate like a civilized adult.
[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
That's a very good wording for this little fracas we've got going. Perhaps this topic should be renamed 'Letter of the Law vs. Spirit of the Law'.Originally posted by Sojourner:
<STRONG>Ah, another *letter of the law vs. spirit of the law* debate. </STRONG>
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Kayless,
You are wrong and you know it. DnD (esp ADnD) is a blatently western fantasy game. Don't even start with Kara Tura. That was part of the first edition ADnD line and was a flop in almost every respect.
The FACT is (if you can, do *try* to read some philosophy sometime, ok?) the ADnD alignment system (which I object to btw in rping but that is another topic) is based *strictly* on western moral ideals.
I am right on this one. Get over it.
-Polaris
You are wrong and you know it. DnD (esp ADnD) is a blatently western fantasy game. Don't even start with Kara Tura. That was part of the first edition ADnD line and was a flop in almost every respect.
The FACT is (if you can, do *try* to read some philosophy sometime, ok?) the ADnD alignment system (which I object to btw in rping but that is another topic) is based *strictly* on western moral ideals.
I am right on this one. Get over it.
-Polaris
Having just taken philosophy, I will back up polaris' claim.
D&D is most definately a western style game. Baldur's Gate follows the same system. There is no such thing as a debt to someone you've NEVER MET! It just does NOT work that way.
Even if Bioware wanted to take that route, it would NOT fly. Because this game sells most popularly in western civilization. Not eastern, western. That would be one hell of a screwup on Bioware's part trying to put eastern philosophy (that most westerners would be too ignorant to know about) into Baldur's Gate. Western philosophy is prevalent in every-day culture. I didn't know **** about eastern philosophy until my class (and am, admittedly, still weak in the topic). Expecting most westerners who buy the game to understand that question is like expecting most americans to know multiplication without a calculator (yes I'm making fun of my own country - so don't try that anti-american route against me).
D&D is most definately a western style game. Baldur's Gate follows the same system. There is no such thing as a debt to someone you've NEVER MET! It just does NOT work that way.
Even if Bioware wanted to take that route, it would NOT fly. Because this game sells most popularly in western civilization. Not eastern, western. That would be one hell of a screwup on Bioware's part trying to put eastern philosophy (that most westerners would be too ignorant to know about) into Baldur's Gate. Western philosophy is prevalent in every-day culture. I didn't know **** about eastern philosophy until my class (and am, admittedly, still weak in the topic). Expecting most westerners who buy the game to understand that question is like expecting most americans to know multiplication without a calculator (yes I'm making fun of my own country - so don't try that anti-american route against me).
The Baldur’s Gate series sells well world wide, and I think you’ll find a great many more fans in Asia then one might first imagine. Western culture is not as universal as it may seem when one is living in the heart the United States. With it’s vastly larger population and the general view of video games as more viable entertainment for adults then western culture tends to, not to mention the ease of getting cheaper pirated games in certain nations. Seriously, why not pop into the Black Isle message board and talk to J.E. Sawyer or another designer. They’re usually quite open about how well the game does in assorted locales as well as the inspiration for various parts of the story. Most designers try to make their games appeal to a world market. How many Japanese games contain elements that appeal to people, both easterner and westerner alike? Most game companies try to think of the big picture, i.e. international sales.Originally posted by Quark:
<STRONG>D&D is most definately a western style game. Baldur's Gate follows the same system. There is no such thing as a debt to someone you've NEVER MET! It just does NOT work that way.
Even if Bioware wanted to take that route, it would NOT fly. Because this game sells most popularly in western civilization. Not eastern, western.</STRONG>
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
I’m not saying your opinion is wrong. I am trying to show you that the opposing viewpoint is just as viable. That a person can feel both ways depending on their beliefs. That’s why there were multiple choices to the Solar’s inquiry, to allow for divergent views. The answer is invariably different according to who you ask. “This above all, to thine own self be true,” Shakespeare once wrote. Using historical standpoints as basis on why the notion of a karmatic debt is wrong makes it sound as though person playing D&D or Baldur's Gate must subscribe to specific set of beliefs. D&D is about letting people bring their imagination to life through role-playing, not shoehorning them into a certain cultural mold. If I am role-playing as a Kensai wouldn’t it make sense for my character to have a slightly more eastern standpoint than a standard fighter? There is more then one way to look at this situation. No one is wrong, regardless of their answer to the Solar’s question. It’s an introspective matter.Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>Kayless,
You are wrong and you know it. DnD (esp ADnD) is a blatently western fantasy game. Don't even start with Kara Tura. That was part of the first edition ADnD line and was a flop in almost every respect.
The FACT is (if you can, do *try* to read some philosophy sometime, ok?) the ADnD alignment system (which I object to btw in rping but that is another topic) is based *strictly* on western moral ideals.
I am right on this one. Get over it.
-Polaris</STRONG>
I wish you would actually try to be tolerant instead of resorting to petty insults. There is room enough for both perspectives. And yet you constantly hammer your views as though they were infallible and everyone who feels otherwise must be monumentally ignorant for disagreeing with you. Why does this issue bother you so much? Are you so narrow-minded that foreign beliefs are meaningless to you? How many tragedies have occurred throughout history because people felt that the beliefs of others did not apply or were not worth considering? How many cultures were trampled down and forgotten because others were certain that theirs was the only proper course of action. People have the right to think and feel differently from you without being wrong.
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
[url="http://feedback.blackisle.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi"]Here[/url] is the link to the official Black Isle message board. Bioware and Black Isle designers alike frequent this board and are usually willing to answer questions from fans (provided they're not abrasive). So if you're curious about the why they did the whole debt thing, you can take it up with them here.
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
I'd also like to point out that insults and flames are frowned on by the moderators. We should all endeavor to be civil and not resort to flaming each other. It's not as though the mods let incendiary threads go on forever.
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
It seems that the term 'debt' is viewed as being negative. I feel that my protagonist owes a debt to Saravok, not because of the choice made by gorion, neither because of the childhood of saravok, though this could have been instrumental of S becoming evil, but because of the fact that if S did not do what he did during BG1, I feel that the protagonist still would have been reading books in candlekeep until Jon Irenicus kidnapped him and almost certainly would have won (try starting bg2 at level 1 )
It all depends if you consider not only the choices anyone makes, but also the actions evolving from it.
)It all depends if you consider not only the choices anyone makes, but also the actions evolving from it.
The door magic mouths "Touch me and die"
Mage (int 18): "Yeah, right..."
The door: (Power Word Kill)
Mage (int 18): Dies....
Mage (int 18): "Yeah, right..."
The door: (Power Word Kill)
Mage (int 18): Dies....
Kayless,
The problem I have with you is severalfold:
1. Multiple postings is just as much a violation as anything I may have done. I suggest you consider the story about pots and kettles.
2. Philosophy *regardless* of what has become vogue today is *not* a matter of opinion. There are many equally valid schools of philosophy...that is true, but they differ in their baseline assumptions.
3. I don't care if BGII is sold throughout the GALAXY, the *fact* is (have you *bothered* to read any philosophy yet?) that the AD&D alignment system (and thus the morality of BGII) is based on a WESTERN value system. The fact millions of copies might be sold in say China is irrelavent.
In WESTERN philosophy, you are wrong. You can not owe a debt for a decision someone else has made, *period*. That is one of the *few* constants you will find across *all* schools of western ethical philosphy. I am being so adamant here, because this is one of the few things ethical philosophers generally AGREE ON....so you are looking a bit silly here Kayless.
I also looked at the official board. Near as I can tell, the designers (gasp) MADE A MISTAKE. [They need to take some remedial philosophy courses too.]
-Polaris
The problem I have with you is severalfold:
1. Multiple postings is just as much a violation as anything I may have done. I suggest you consider the story about pots and kettles.
2. Philosophy *regardless* of what has become vogue today is *not* a matter of opinion. There are many equally valid schools of philosophy...that is true, but they differ in their baseline assumptions.
3. I don't care if BGII is sold throughout the GALAXY, the *fact* is (have you *bothered* to read any philosophy yet?) that the AD&D alignment system (and thus the morality of BGII) is based on a WESTERN value system. The fact millions of copies might be sold in say China is irrelavent.
In WESTERN philosophy, you are wrong. You can not owe a debt for a decision someone else has made, *period*. That is one of the *few* constants you will find across *all* schools of western ethical philosphy. I am being so adamant here, because this is one of the few things ethical philosophers generally AGREE ON....so you are looking a bit silly here Kayless.
I also looked at the official board. Near as I can tell, the designers (gasp) MADE A MISTAKE. [They need to take some remedial philosophy courses too.]
-Polaris
Well, if anyone ever gets an anwer from the Black Isle / Bioware guys, please be sure to post the URL to that thread here. I, for one, am anxious to see the result.
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.