Okay my little post seemed to have generated quite a discussion. I guess I should have mentioned that I am from South Asia. Specificly Bangladesh and I am a muslim and as such my concept of duty and obligation is likely to be very different than many of you guys. I just thought that well you are always coloured by your childhood and experiences that you have in life, no one can doubt that, so if things had been different Sarevok's personality would have been different so he would make different choices. Same goes for your PC. I mean come on the majority of your personality tends to be formed by the environment you live in and not your blood or genes and stuff like that.
The debt I had in mind was not "Sorry Sarevok for your rotten childhood." You can do nothing for that and personally are not responsible for that. But more like a gratitude to the universe as a whole for your own good fortune and perhaps patience and understanding towards Sarevok not preaching you understand. Just not treat him like a rotten apple that can't be cast away fast enough like say Anomen would have you believe.
Debt to Sarevok
I have question. What the solar asked has been quoted but I'd be curious to see a quote of the answer options. I remember being able to choose a middle of the road answer in which the PC didn't take the blame but acknowledged a debt. No doubt this answer doesn't exist outside my addled pate and I chose something the Solar wanted to hear to maintain my spotless rep.
It's a game, right? Does my lack of indignation over a poorly written scene in a very long drama mean I'm a moral relativist?
My philosophy courses ended 20+ years ago but what I remember of the Socratic method was questions, a dialogue in search of the truth. I don't recall Socrates bringing THE ANSWER down from the mountain and defending it against all comers. But enough of this. I'm wasting precious gaming time. The baby's asleep, the preteen's reading, and my wife is at a meeting.
One last thing. Trunks your post was enlightening (sorry I couldn't resist)your concept of the nature of the debt owed by the PC rang true to me. No doubt it's beyond the bounds of western philosophy but in the immortal words of John the Biker
"F---'em if they can't take a joke!"
It's a game, right? Does my lack of indignation over a poorly written scene in a very long drama mean I'm a moral relativist?
My philosophy courses ended 20+ years ago but what I remember of the Socratic method was questions, a dialogue in search of the truth. I don't recall Socrates bringing THE ANSWER down from the mountain and defending it against all comers. But enough of this. I'm wasting precious gaming time. The baby's asleep, the preteen's reading, and my wife is at a meeting.
One last thing. Trunks your post was enlightening (sorry I couldn't resist)your concept of the nature of the debt owed by the PC rang true to me. No doubt it's beyond the bounds of western philosophy but in the immortal words of John the Biker
"F---'em if they can't take a joke!"
Actually it was a rather lame cover up for two double posts in a row.Originally posted by THE JAKER:
<STRONG>Jeez, Kayless, do you ever feel like you're just talking to yourself???? (four posts in a row - new record?)</STRONG>
I thought actually adding some info in them would be better then just writing *double post* and *ditto* True enough. But most people have at least a vague idea of eastern beliefs, either from old Bruce Lee movies or media. It is definitely a lot more one sided though.Originally posted by Quark:
<STRONG>Kayless by bringing that 'mass appeal' statement you ignore one big factor.
Many westerners are completely ignorant of eastern culture. The vice versa is not true.</STRONG>
[url="http://feedback.blackisle.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000620"]Here[/url]'s the link to the topic. No officials joined in the debate but the results are about as varied as they are here and at least its interesting reading from a fresh perspective (focusing less on the actual wording of the question and more on the nature of Bhaalspawn themselves).Originally posted by Xyx:
<STRONG>Well, if anyone ever gets an anwer from the Black Isle / Bioware guys, please be sure to post the URL to that thread here. I, for one, am anxious to see the result.
See my answer to the Jaker. Buck doesn’t penalize people for accidental double posts. He does ban posters for insults and personal attacks (like stating people lack the intelligence to understand philosophy).Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>Kayless,
The problem I have with you is severalfold:
1. Multiple postings is just as much a violation as anything I may have done. I suggest you consider the story about pots and kettles.</STRONG>
Ah I see your still trying to darken my day, Polaris. You’re obviously very incensed about this issue (inexplicably so) and don’t care who you flame. It’s not your position I find fault with (it’s just as valid as anyone else’s), it’s your flagrant disrespect for the opinions of other posters. If what Nippy says is true and you have been abrasive on other topics, you could very well get yourself banned. I have not yet mailed Buck, but if you don’t cool off and start to treat others with some common respect I feel obliged to do so. So please calm yourself and show some decency to others. I've been here a long time and hate to see anyone get banned (especially over something so silly as this). This would be a really interesting topic if you could just control your temper.Originally posted by polaris:<STRONG>
In WESTERN philosophy, you are wrong. You can not owe a debt for a decision someone else has made, *period*. That is one of the *few* constants you will find across *all* schools of western ethical philosphy. I am being so adamant here, because this is one of the few things ethical philosophers generally AGREE ON....so you are looking a bit silly here Kayless.</STRONG>
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
As I recall, there is a middle of the road response that will give you a good result (and it is philosphically sound...unlike the other options):
First you say that you have pity for your mother. [A classic good response; I don't think anyone will dispute that.]
Then you say that Sarevok made his own fate (in short you DENY the existance of scripted fate or karma). Apparently denying Karma or Fate in favor of free will is a *neutral* response, so the combination will still give a good result.
I still wish that the bioware scripters had bothered to read some philosphy btw. I also read the thread on the official list and (no suprise to me at least), most agreed with my position. The use of the word 'owe' and 'debt' is simply ethically untenable. There is a lot more speculation, however, on that list as to what the programmers really meant (which I think is fruitless unless they come out and say something).
Finally, I just have to say that Bioware's silence (even on their official site) is absolutely deafening. It seems that not even they are willing to defend their own game on this issue.
-Polaris
First you say that you have pity for your mother. [A classic good response; I don't think anyone will dispute that.]
Then you say that Sarevok made his own fate (in short you DENY the existance of scripted fate or karma). Apparently denying Karma or Fate in favor of free will is a *neutral* response, so the combination will still give a good result.
I still wish that the bioware scripters had bothered to read some philosphy btw. I also read the thread on the official list and (no suprise to me at least), most agreed with my position. The use of the word 'owe' and 'debt' is simply ethically untenable. There is a lot more speculation, however, on that list as to what the programmers really meant (which I think is fruitless unless they come out and say something).
Finally, I just have to say that Bioware's silence (even on their official site) is absolutely deafening. It seems that not even they are willing to defend their own game on this issue.
-Polaris
@Polaris: Have you ever served in the military?
Those of you who want to know the dialog options - Spoilers below:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
After showing you your past (and Sarevok's), Solar asks: "Would Sarevok be in your place, now, if but for the smallest twist of fate? Is there a debt between you, then, that is yet unpaid?"
The possible answers were:
That's how I viewed the debt. (I was raised as a Roman Catholic, BTW.)Originally posted by trunks:
<STRONG>Okay my little post seemed to have generated quite a discussion. I guess I should have mentioned that I am from South Asia. Specificly Bangladesh and I am a muslim and as such my concept of duty and obligation is likely to be very different than many of you guys. I just thought that well you are always coloured by your childhood and experiences that you have in life, no one can doubt that, so if things had been different Sarevok's personality would have been different so he would make different choices. Same goes for your PC. I mean come on the majority of your personality tends to be formed by the environment you live in and not your blood or genes and stuff like that.
The debt I had in mind was not "Sorry Sarevok for your rotten childhood." You can do nothing for that and personally are not responsible for that. But more like a gratitude to the universe as a whole for your own good fortune and perhaps patience and understanding towards Sarevok not preaching you understand. Just not treat him like a rotten apple that can't be cast away fast enough like say Anomen would have you believe.</STRONG>
Those of you who want to know the dialog options - Spoilers below:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
After showing you your past (and Sarevok's), Solar asks: "Would Sarevok be in your place, now, if but for the smallest twist of fate? Is there a debt between you, then, that is yet unpaid?"
The possible answers were:
- "If there was a debt, then it was Gorion's...and it has been paid."
- "There is no debt. Gorion had no choice...and I wouldn't have ended up like Sarevok."
- "Sarevok made his own fate. Neither Gorion nor I are responsible for it." (This was the middle-of-the-road answer.)
- "Sarevok paid for what he did...as for now, I don't know...perhaps there is a debt."
- "Yes, there is a debt. I could have just as easily have had his life, and he mine."
There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...
What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, ... to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.
What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, ... to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.
Thanks for the swift reaction Buck. Hopefully in the future we posters can disagree on things without losing our tempers.
@Polaris, Personally I find no fault with your views, just your attitude, which I hope will cool down a bit now. This topic has the potential to spark some interesting theoretical discussion and shouldn't be mired with our anger.
@Polaris, Personally I find no fault with your views, just your attitude, which I hope will cool down a bit now. This topic has the potential to spark some interesting theoretical discussion and shouldn't be mired with our anger.
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
I have several things to say:
1. When a person is *wrong* (as Kayless is), he is wrong. He *should* read some philosphy before he makes a fool out of himself talking *about* philosophy. I will admit that the intelligence comment (to Buck) was over the top, but that is ALL I am willing to admit. If you still wish to ban me, then I will wear it like a badge of honor.
2. Kayless, Buck (the moderater) had his say. The best thing *you* can say about that is *NOTHING*.
3. As a matter of fact I have served time in the military. I happen to know quite a bit about military ethics (required at OCS).
4. I am even *more* torqued off because it would seem that one 'so-called' EVIL response on those tests mean that you become an EVIL god regardless of alignment, game-actions, or reputation. GAH! Someone please feed those bioware scripters a clue.
Finally, I will say once more that Bioware's silence on this is deafening.
-Polaris
1. When a person is *wrong* (as Kayless is), he is wrong. He *should* read some philosphy before he makes a fool out of himself talking *about* philosophy. I will admit that the intelligence comment (to Buck) was over the top, but that is ALL I am willing to admit. If you still wish to ban me, then I will wear it like a badge of honor.
2. Kayless, Buck (the moderater) had his say. The best thing *you* can say about that is *NOTHING*.
3. As a matter of fact I have served time in the military. I happen to know quite a bit about military ethics (required at OCS).
4. I am even *more* torqued off because it would seem that one 'so-called' EVIL response on those tests mean that you become an EVIL god regardless of alignment, game-actions, or reputation. GAH! Someone please feed those bioware scripters a clue.
Finally, I will say once more that Bioware's silence on this is deafening.
-Polaris
Polaris,
For the gods. Calm down. you are too nervous. This is not a war of egos. Not only for the thing with Kayless, but I think you are a little intransigent. The most important is that everybody read an understand your opinion about the debt of serevok. let it be.
For the gods. Calm down. you are too nervous. This is not a war of egos. Not only for the thing with Kayless, but I think you are a little intransigent. The most important is that everybody read an understand your opinion about the debt of serevok. let it be.
[Sorry about my English]
Ps: I'm "Ivan Cavallazzi".
Lurker(0.50). : )
Ps: I'm "Ivan Cavallazzi".
Lurker(0.50). : )
*Sigh* It’s unfortunate that this has become so personal to you Polaris (I still don’t understand the source of your anger). You were warned repeatedly by numerous posters to take it easy and yet you refused. I regret that it has come this far. I find your repeated refusal to accept the olive branch I offer baffling and am unsure where this contempt for me comes from. I don't know why you're acting this way but this sort of behavior is not tolerated on Game Banshee. Please desist before it is too late.
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Kayless,
Try to imagine talking to someone who insists that the sky is lavender with green polkadots....and insists that while you are entitled to your opinion the sky is blue, that it is only an opinion.
I have very little patience for sophistry (and Buck this is not an insult but an accurate representation of the word). The FACT is that in western philosophy, you can NOT owe a debt for a decision someone else has made. The question in the game is INVALID. However, I have seen counteless of students with sloppy thinking....and too many go into important careers or even politics.
*sigh* When a person is factually *wrong* about something, being instrasigent is NO VICE. I will stand by my position. If that gets me banned, then I am proud of it.
-Polaris
Try to imagine talking to someone who insists that the sky is lavender with green polkadots....and insists that while you are entitled to your opinion the sky is blue, that it is only an opinion.
I have very little patience for sophistry (and Buck this is not an insult but an accurate representation of the word). The FACT is that in western philosophy, you can NOT owe a debt for a decision someone else has made. The question in the game is INVALID. However, I have seen counteless of students with sloppy thinking....and too many go into important careers or even politics.
*sigh* When a person is factually *wrong* about something, being instrasigent is NO VICE. I will stand by my position. If that gets me banned, then I am proud of it.
-Polaris
@Polaris, This isn’t about who’s right and who’s wrong (I’ve stated repeatedly that your viewpoint is just as viable as anyone else’s) it’s about showing the proper respect to others. The fact that you have ignored the patient advice of your fellow posters to calm down is indicative of your lack of respect for them (not to mention your personal insults towards me and contempt for the moderator’s instructions). If you can’t abide by the board’ simple rules of conduct I fear there’s little hope for your future here. Don't let your anger and pride condemn you.
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Kayless,
*YOU* seem to be overlooking that facts are simply that...facts. If I am to be banned because I refuse to agree that one of the (very few) agreed upon tenants of western ethical philosophy 'is a matter of opinion...you are entitled to yours as much as I am to mine', then I *will* wear it as a badge of honor.
Read some of the other threads. I think you will see that I am quite willing to be reasonable. However, it is no disrespect to other posters to point out when they are factually *wrong*. You are. This is not a matter of opinion.
Please deal with that. I was quite serious when I said that your position was sophistry (and I am using the word neutrally and correctly).
-Polaris
*YOU* seem to be overlooking that facts are simply that...facts. If I am to be banned because I refuse to agree that one of the (very few) agreed upon tenants of western ethical philosophy 'is a matter of opinion...you are entitled to yours as much as I am to mine', then I *will* wear it as a badge of honor.
Read some of the other threads. I think you will see that I am quite willing to be reasonable. However, it is no disrespect to other posters to point out when they are factually *wrong*. You are. This is not a matter of opinion.
Please deal with that. I was quite serious when I said that your position was sophistry (and I am using the word neutrally and correctly).
-Polaris
The simple fact is that our personal beliefs on the issue of Sarevok do not factor into Buck’s decision-making process in the slightest. They are completely irrelevant to the matter of board conduct. Any action the moderators take will be in response of your behavior, not your feelings on this thread.
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
I will say this one more time:
If I am to be banned for telling someone else they are factually wrong, then this is a board that is not worth being a part of. If this were a matter of differing opionions, then I would agree with you Kayless, but it isn't. The *fact* is (look it up yourself), in western ethical philosophy, you can not owe a debt for someone else's actions. Period.
If that makes be rude and in violation of the Code of Conduct, then so be it.
-Polaris
If I am to be banned for telling someone else they are factually wrong, then this is a board that is not worth being a part of. If this were a matter of differing opionions, then I would agree with you Kayless, but it isn't. The *fact* is (look it up yourself), in western ethical philosophy, you can not owe a debt for someone else's actions. Period.
If that makes be rude and in violation of the Code of Conduct, then so be it.
-Polaris
For Gods sake polaris this is getting beyond a joke. Actually read Kayless's post and understand that he meant you may be right but the way you are saying it is wrong.
Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Kayless has his and you have yours. You are trying to force that onto Kayless. *THAT* is wrong.
Polaris, I shall never understand you, you come up with excellent posts, you are obviously intelligent but you act like a very immature child. You flame Kayless force opinions on other people and write abusively. Please stop, it's just getting annoying now.
I apologise for the flaming but I felt this was called for.
Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Kayless has his and you have yours. You are trying to force that onto Kayless. *THAT* is wrong.
Polaris, I shall never understand you, you come up with excellent posts, you are obviously intelligent but you act like a very immature child. You flame Kayless force opinions on other people and write abusively. Please stop, it's just getting annoying now.
I apologise for the flaming but I felt this was called for.
Perverteer Paladin
Commom!!!!!!! I finaly was thinking that this topic was sent to de 2nd page. One post call another one an so on... . We should close this topic. Every thing was said. Actualy we should bump the others topic to send this one dowm. This topic is smeling sulfur AGAIN. Let's talk about Kensy/mage.
[Sorry about my English]
Ps: I'm "Ivan Cavallazzi".
Lurker(0.50). : )
Ps: I'm "Ivan Cavallazzi".
Lurker(0.50). : )
Sigh,
In a way Nippy, I agree. I also agree with Ivan that everything as been said. However, in our modern society (at least in the U.S.) there is too much of 'Everyone is entitled to an opinion so can we all just be happy' sordid relativism.
Don't get me wrong....everyone *is* entitled to an opinion. *HOWEVER* there is a difference between opinions and facts. You may think that the sky is laveneder with green polkadots all you want...but please don't tell the men in white coats that, "I am entitled to my opinion.... " I thought this was clear.
Getting back on topic, it is a verifiable fact (please go take a philosophy course, talk to an ethicist, or do some reading on your own...do not take my word for it) that in western ethical philosophy, you can NOT be held accountable for another's actions. There really *is* no room for opinion about this....the whines of the relativists out there notwithstanding.
-Polaris
In a way Nippy, I agree. I also agree with Ivan that everything as been said. However, in our modern society (at least in the U.S.) there is too much of 'Everyone is entitled to an opinion so can we all just be happy' sordid relativism.
Don't get me wrong....everyone *is* entitled to an opinion. *HOWEVER* there is a difference between opinions and facts. You may think that the sky is laveneder with green polkadots all you want...but please don't tell the men in white coats that, "I am entitled to my opinion....
" I thought this was clear.Getting back on topic, it is a verifiable fact (please go take a philosophy course, talk to an ethicist, or do some reading on your own...do not take my word for it) that in western ethical philosophy, you can NOT be held accountable for another's actions. There really *is* no room for opinion about this....the whines of the relativists out there notwithstanding.
-Polaris