Sending back criminal immigrants

arno_v · Post by **arno_v** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:53 pm

Today the dutch government approved a new law which makes it possible to send immigrants back to their former country when they commited small (!)crimes. Untill now it was only possible to send people back when they commited serious crimes. I couldn't find an English article about this, but I was just wondering what you think about this. Is it a good plan, should we only allow decent immigrants to stay in our country or do you think it will generate more problems?

I think this is a step in the wrong direction, it seems to me this is only an excuse to kick some people out of our country. I think it's not right to prosucete people in a different way just because they are not born here. It will only stimulate the "us" and "them" mentality in our country, and to me it seems that's the last thing we need...

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:01 pm

I think that if they do that, they should do the same with everyone else, because this is actually discriminating...

your link

However, an important detail you left out is that only immigrants who've been here for under three years can be sent back when commiting a 'jail-sentenced' crime.

It's still discriminating according Van Kalmthout from the University of Tilburg. He says it will further sharpen the 'us'/'them' sentiments while these immigrants aren't 'tourists' or 'guests', but rather participants of our society.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:10 pm

[QUOTE=arno_v]I think this is a step in the wrong direction, it seems to me this is only an excuse to kick some people out of our country. I think it's not right to prosucete people in a different way just because they are not born here.[/QUOTE]

This is my view to. Regardless of their background people should be given the same rights.

Generarly I think immigration policy should be very liberal, especially regarding asylum issues. Denying anyone the right to leave their nation of origin is highly imoral imo.

frdchkn · Post by **frdchkn** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:11 pm

That is extremely discriminatory. Because they lived somewhere else previously, now they have to abide by harsher laws? Ridiculous.

It seems to me like some sort of mechanism for getting the immigrants 'out'. This is evident in the fact that even small-time crime may be used to deport the immigrants.

arno_v · Post by **arno_v** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:20 pm

[QUOTE=frdchkn]It seems to me like some sort of mechanism for getting the immigrants 'out'. This is evident in the fact that even small-time crime may be used to deport the immigrants.[/QUOTE]

Yeah that are my thoughts too, if I'm informed correctly it seems even crimes like shoplifting could end up in deportation. Event though they will not always be deportated for such crimes, it is possible. So I expect it will be used as a new method of getting rid of people.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:24 pm

Frankly, the Dutch immigration policy seems to have bought into the Right wing populism recently. (For you who are not familiar with European Right wing populism, it means discrimination based on ethnic background packed in populistic rhetorics with mainly emotional arguments playing on people's fear, insecurity and ignorance).

[QUOTE=frdchkn]That is extremely discriminatory. Because they lived somewhere else previously, now they have to abide by harsher laws? Ridiculous.
[/QUOTE]

Completely agree. Once an immigrant, always and immigrant, never to achieve equal status to those born in the country? Pure discrimination.

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:27 pm

I agree. what reasons are there to send back a person for shoplifting? It is so much waste and effort for almost no gain. Discrimination, IMO.

Perhaps the government has decided that the chance of outside offenders, may cause a shift in the amount of law abiding citenzry already occupying the area, who decide to follow suit. They may be worried that these guys/girls will become repeat offenders and begin to comit more serious crimes.

Or thare may be cultural resons behind deportation. One person may comit what is thought here to be a minor crime, but could elsewhere be a larger one.

Unfortunately, I can only speak the root languages and syntaxs of the article you posted, therefore do not understand truly what is being said, only a few of the words at random.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:33 pm

I'm not at all happy to hear this... Though, as CE indicates, I have heard that Holland is becoming increasingly less tolerant than the society it once was.

Just a question since my Dutch is not good enough to make full sense of an article. How are they defining "a small crime?"

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:45 pm

Just a question since my Dutch is not good enough to make full sense of an article. How are they defining "a small crime?"

Refer to Arnos last post, I think that is what the article means.

To tell you the truth I only understand some of it cause I understand another language like it. Be thankful we all share the same alphabet...

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:57 pm

Duh.. I didn't see Arno's last post. I have a sick child at home, my focus is lacking today

Anyway, on topic, I also quickly checked around Google and I was not able to locate anything. I did find this piece though, which provides some decent background information on the Netherlands, for anyone who is not very familiar with it.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_art ... Holland%3F

EDIT

Hang on, here is something, from the above site:

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_art ... iminals%27

Minister want to expel 'newcomer criminals'

30 September 2005

AMSTERDAM — Underlining her assertion that she runs a "restrictive immigration policy", Minister Rita Verdonk has proposed expelling all newcomers who are convicted of any crime.

Under the current law, an immigrant can be stripped of his or her residence permit after conviction for a very serious offence. Verdonk wants to extend the law to cover all crimes, including theft.

Verdonk was to bring her proposal to the Cabinet on Friday, informed sources in the Hague told the media. The Liberal Party minister's plan will not apply to people granted asylum or newcomers who become Dutch citizens.

Liberal Party MP Arno Visser said the idea was a good one. He has
called for such measures in the past, saying it is important that foreigners, or vreemdelingen, adhere to Dutch law at all times.

According to him, the immigration service (IND) operates a sliding scale under which the chance of a foreigner being expelled declines the longer the person is in the Netherlands.

Labour Party (MP) Jeroen Dijsselbloem said the proposal is too extreme.

[Copyright Expatica News + ANP 2005]

Not very in depth, but it's something.

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:59 pm

sorry to here about your kid... and sorry to hear about you, considering your gonna be the one cleaning up.

Back on topic, thanks for the link, it was informative.

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:34 pm

Do the Dutch have problems with overcrowded prisons? That kind of thing could have in part have driven them to such a move.

But I certainly don't agree with the policy. For one thing, what would the person getting sent back have to endure? Many of these people are fleeing for their lives.

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:43 pm

Warning: This relates to a completely different issue and as such is meaningless in relation to this topic.

Note: The following post is about a completely different issue. I misread what the story was about, and as such, what is posted does not apply. I will keep it here because otherwise it stuffs up other posts, but I'm putting this warning here.

What, so you want to tell these people: "You are a criminal. You have done something punishable, but come to our country and you can forget about all the things you did wrong."

That is the worst message ever, if you break the law you pay for it. You can't just run from your problems, you have to accept the consequences of your actions.

[QUOTE=Ravager]But I certainly don't agree with the policy. For one thing, what would the person getting sent back have to endure? Many of these people are fleeing for their lives.[/QUOTE]

Well, I don't think capital punishment is really in for small crimes. They aren't fleeing for their lives, they are going to that country and abusing its hospitality by living there as a fugitive criminal.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:59 pm

My very rude reply to DJ, which I at the time believed was appropriate since I didn't know DJ had misunderstood the original article.

dj_venom wrote:What, so you want to tell these people: "You are a criminal. You have done something punishable, but come to our country and you can forget about all the things you did wrong."

How does this related to the new law in the Netherlands? The law was not concerning people who committed criminal acts before they immigrated to the Netherlands, it is concerning imigrated people, anyone, who committs a minor or major crime in the Netherlands.

What you describe sounds like giving asylum to convicted criminals. That has no relevance to Dutch immigration policy or the topic discussed in this thread.

That is the worst message ever, if you break the law you pay for it. You can't just run from your problems, you have to accept the consequences of your actions.

Immigrants, like people born in the country, should face the penalty by law for the crime they have committed. Nobody has suggested that the alternative to sending the immigrants out, is not to let them have no penalty if they committ a crime, while people born in the country are penalised for the same crime.

Well, I don't think capital punishment is really in for small crimes. They aren't fleeing for their lives, they are going to that country and abusing its hospitality by living there as a fugitive criminal.

How do you know a particular immigrant is not fleeing for his or her life due to circumstances in the country they fled from? And what do you mean by "abusing it's hospitality by living there as a fugitive criminal"? Are you implying that a person born in the country who is penalised according to the law for his crime has more right to stay in the country, whereas the immigrated person who committs the same crime "abuse hospitality" if recieving the same penalty? If that is what you mean, I view it as a highly discriminatory and immoral view.

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:07 pm

IR to DJ Venoms mistake... do not read, irrelavent data.

How does this related to the new law in the Netherlands? The law was not concerning people who committed criminal acts before they immigrated to the Netherlands, it is concerning imigrated people, anyone, who committs a minor or major crime in the Netherlands.

Really? I thought it was also linked to something involving if you commit shoplifting in so and so place, you will be sent back if you try to cross the border, even if you did time.

How do you know a particular immigrant is not fleeing for his or her life due to circumstances in the country they fled from? And what do you mean by "abusing it's hospitality by living there as a fugitive criminal"? Are you implying that a person born in the country who is penalised according to the law for his crime has more right to stay in the country, whereas the immigrated person who committs the same crime "abuse hospitality" if recieving the same penalty? If that is what you mean, I view it as a highly discriminatory and immoral view.

I believe if he is known as a murderer, that they may decide to cross the border into another country to take its hospitality...

However, this is somewhat discrimitory in any case, and most countries send back convicted murderers anyways. Unless they are to be sent back for execution.

Now if they were coming to escape prejudice and the Danish turn them away for breaking laws in their country that do not exist in that country, well... that is immoral, and the people who thought up this have no ethics.

I truly believed that they meant that people were going to be turned away for the reason that they shoplifted or something... but this is way worse, when they actually deport people back to their country of origin... for commiting a petty crime...?

It is an injustice in my view, and extremely racial.

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:29 pm

My complete apologies. I completely misread what he said. I thought he said that people who have comitted past crimes are being sent back. Not people who commit crimes in the country are then being sent back.

In that case, I would agree with what others have said, because if you gain a citizenship in a country, that means you are a member of that country, and as such, you should be treated the same as everyone else.

I will edit my post with a bit at the top.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:31 pm

Happy to hear that DJ, I was quite suprised by your opinions. I will edit my post too when you are done.

EDIT: Np, DJ. I let my post stand too, since you let yours stand and the meaning of this thread will be very strange if I just delete it.

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:33 pm

Yeah, what I said is actually quite offensive now that I know the real meaning of the article.

Once again, I apologise to all and I do not support what I wrote in relation to that article.

Thanks for understanding C Elegans

.

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:33 pm

Well... that is good...am I to edit my posts as well, or do you think that they can stay...?

Thanks for understanding C Elegans .

She understands all. do not stand in her way or be trmapled with logic and balance.

Does anyone else here have an opinion on the topic?

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:36 pm

Well I don't like to delete complete posts, because then you have to get everyone else to and it can become confusing. Also, I'm leaving mine there as a testament to how stupid I can be

.

As for the topic, well it is good to know we are all decent human beings.