Disappointed in ToB (spoilers)

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 4:56 pm

Okay, I admit it, I'm not terribly fond of Throne of Bhaal. Maybe I was expecting too much. But basically the gameplay and storyline amounts to
1) "Go here and kill this."
2) Repeat.

I'm sorry, but it got real old real quick. Even so, I was contented to do the killing because I'm playing a good, righteous character, and all of The Five are evil, right? Nope. Balthazar and my PC had matching goals, but does the story have any other ways to get to the end of the game other than killing him? Nope. It's not an option.

So basically,
Good: Finding out more about the PC's heritage, who his mother was, how he came to be Gorion's ward, and what Bhaal's ultimate plan was.
Bad: Kill kill kill. No other options, just kill everything. When a game is reduced to nothing more than mechanics, powers, and die rolls, it ceases to be fun for me. Also, would it have killed someone to add one or two lines about Imoen when the Solar was fleshing out the PC's heritage? It reveals how Sarevok got away from being sacrificed, but then it claims that Gorion could only save -one- child. Where did Imoen come from?

*sigh*
Ah well. Neverwinter Nights, here I come (Hopefully soon).

Kyle Marksteiner · Post by **Kyle Marksteiner** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:10 pm

yea, I didn't understand where Imoen came from either. It was almost like the developers couldn't quite decide if they wanted Imoen to be a Bhaalspawn or not.

Krimmy · Post by **Krimmy** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:22 pm

I wish the add-on was more extensive, pushing into more of the romance storylines.

Examples

Viconia: A showdown with Drow and possibly Lloth. What happend to those Drow hunting parties that were after her? I thought for sure we'd get to resolve that, it seemed to be swept under the rug a bit.

Aerie: A quest that would include her homeland and the possibility of getting her wings back. Although they touch on this at the end it never follows through. And of course if it did we wouldn't have gotten to see it anyway.

Jahiera: How about a journey to her homeland Tethyr(sp?), sounds as if she still has some loose ends there and it would've been interesting to look into.

Also why couldn't we take someone with us at the end if we chose to ascend, what the hell!
Other than that I though the addon was good.

Bishibosh · Post by **Bishibosh** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:24 pm

I agree about the whole "go here and kill this" comment. I felt like i didn't have much controll over what i was doing, and not a lot of side quests.

I really liked the ending though and felt like it neatly wrapped up the saga... i even felt a little sad to see it all end ::sheds tear::

Kyle Marksteiner · Post by **Kyle Marksteiner** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:34 pm

well the thing is, there was too much topic left for an "add-on", especially since the SOA plot deviated some from the whole Bhaal saga. (Sure Jon is stealing your immortal powers- but overall the plot was less "Bhaalish" than BG1 or TOB)

TOB is actually very good as far as an add-on goes, but it's not a full finale. I'm not sure why they couldn't have just done watcher's keep and maybe a second "add-on" as the expansion and then done a full third game.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:36 pm

Well, it *is* an add-on, and what do most players want out of this kind of game? That said, I agree: I wanted less linearity, more character interaction, and a lot of holes filled in.

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 6:09 pm

Oh, well, I was well off the mark with my thinking. I thought that just having Sarevok in your party would be considered cheesy after a while but this is even better. the game has been out for, what a month, and already some folk think the ENTIRE game is cheesy. This is beautiful. One last thing to Metatron- are you simply disappointed that "TWO" got there first with the" ToB-is-cheesy-I-thought-BG1-was-much-better" opinion? I read the times and his proclamation came in at 07-09-2001 11:47 am and you started this line at 6:40pm.

KaaZe · Post by **KaaZe** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 6:26 pm

I think it a very good add-on. But I will agree with the constant killing. I would have liked it more if, there where more NPC stories. I was hoping for some twist to happen with Saverok (Not that it had to be evil, but a little more...fx: falls in love with Viconia and becomes a farmer.

)
And... to the thing I REALLY dont like.
Even now I can NOT accept the fact that they let Viconia die, while you are defenceless to do something about it. I mean come on... talk about closure, sorry Sir... she dies, read it and weap. All the other romances have "good" endings. If you play your cards right, Viconia should be either Good or neutral (If you want her to). I was sure she was going to end up a new Drizzt or similar... well, enough about her for now, but I have some serious plans to continue that story when NWN gets here.
I must also say, that I REALLY dont like high level D&D... these abilities are nutz and I think they take alot of the "human" factor away from the game. So im really looking forward to NWN and level 1.

Rant...

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 6:30 pm

There's still the unofficial add-on, of course. I don't know how much character interaction there will be, or non-linearity, but we can always hope. The development team looks very good.

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 6:35 pm

Well, yes, I'm aware that ToB is just an expansion. But still, even TotSC added more actual involving gameplay than ToB did. I just get sick of all the fights. Two of my favorite game series in the world could be beaten without ever directly fighting an opponent. There should -always- be alternatives. I mean, what kind of message is this sending to the kids?

Heheh. I really don't mean to sound didactic. Really my major grief is their choice to close the Bhaal saga with such a constrictive and predictable storyline.

Fezek- I think you're missing the point of my complaint. I don't think ToB is too cheesy or too easy. Just that it lacks the quasi-open ended feel that made BG1 and BG2 so great.

lucid · Post by **lucid** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 6:43 pm

for some reason I think it would've been an interesting idea if they have the cap lower for all the npcs and the cap higher for the main pc since he's a bhaalspawn and all. just a mere thought

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 6:45 pm

Does anybody know( sounding way too naive) if we can import our characters from BG2 to NWN?

Meerlight · Post by **Meerlight** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 7:08 pm

There are spolers in this message so beware! Well I kinda enjoyed just running through the game killing everybody because thats what the whole story is about! Your the child of a the God of Murder! Violence is supposed to be one of your greatest assets and your enemies! There is no reasoning with a person who has been intent on killing you for the past months. Anyway they really made the combat much more interesting in ToB IMO. Sendai's surprise had me so involved in the game and the whole human/dragon crossbreed was very cool. I also liked the endless waves of enemies that you faced in pivotal battles because it really gave you a sense of urgency that you had to fininsh the battle quickly or else you wouldn't be able to handle it. There were also some extremely long fights (end battle) and some challenging ones versus a party of creatures (ones at the bottom of Watcher's Keep). I think it would have been boring if you could just talk all the spawn out of killing everybody. Maybe they could have added something like this.... Balthazar has the same goals as you right? Well maybe you would be able to talk him into teaming up with you against Mellissan. He would die during the ending battle with her so you would not have to fight with eachother over the essence. That would have been really cool i think. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 10:29 pm

i rather liked tob.

it's an epilogue, and end of arc, ride off into the sunset.

there are always somethings that could have been improved, i would have liked the tests to be more extensive esp. that first one i kept trying to find a way not to kill everything to no avail. but all in all i think it was well done.

that being said:

who the hell were the robed guys at the table in the soa end movie?

[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: koz-ivan ]

it would have been kinda neat to finalize the strongholds, rather than leaving them in limbo.

[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: koz-ivan ]

Panda · Post by **Panda** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 6:18 am

I'm sure each and everyone had his/her own expectations regarding ToB. But face it - there's only so much you can cram into a add-on. And the game developers simply cannot meet everybody's expectations, first because it's not possible, and second because they have ideas of their own regarding plot & character development etc.

I for myself am more than happy that it came out, and have nothing to complain about it. It may seem short, but it provided me with the 30 hours of gameplay it promised, and all good things must come to an end. (sigh)

Methinks ToB is great, and a worthy finale for the saga.

Now let's wait for Neverwinter Nights...

Tharan · Post by **Tharan** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:00 am

Sorry, man I agree with Metatron. The game is way to cheesey. (E.X)
"Go kill this, talk him out of it"
You get no option of trying to talk anyone out so you kill it, next briefing
"Go kill this OR that"
You go kill both, next briefing
"Ha, Now I kill you"
You kill him instead, next briefing
"Kill her"
You kill that.
END Game.

WTF? where did the story go....... I wanted a bit more story and char interaction, I even tried every damn quest in the game and still was too short. They could of made the game longer, and just made the creatures give you less exp, you know like BG1 or something or like IWD. Well maybe Newerwinter Night is gonna be cool. Unless its gona end up like Everquest or something. *shiver*

Lews Therin · Post by **Lews Therin** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:23 am

Originally posted by Tharan:
<STRONG>Sorry, man I agree with Metatron. The game is way to cheesey. (E.X)
"Go kill this, talk him out of it"
You get no option of trying to talk anyone out so you kill it, next briefing
"Go kill this OR that"
You go kill both, next briefing
"Ha, Now I kill you"
You kill him instead, next briefing
"Kill her"
You kill that.
END Game.

WTF? where did the story go....... I wanted a bit more story and char interaction, I even tried every damn quest in the game and still was too short. They could of made the game longer, and just made the creatures give you less exp, you know like BG1 or something or like IWD. Well maybe Newerwinter Night is gonna be cool. Unless its gona end up like Everquest or something. *shiver*</STRONG>

I don't know about this, I was able to avoid a couple of fights. Specifically the Demogorgon and the Graveyard Lich. I'm not finished yet but I've really enjoyed ToB and wouldn't have missed it. As for all the fighting -- I'm attempting to replace the God of Murder so it seems appropriate that me and the other contenders should duke it out.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 8:07 am

I've yet to encounter an RPG that isn't cheesy, to that extent--except for P:T, which wasn't a "go there, kill that" kind of game. And P:T didn't do the kind of business that the BG series has done. Which one do you think Interplay prefers?

Oneiron · Post by **Oneiron** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:04 am

I quote Tad Williams (author of the Dragonbone Chair and other dull fantasy books), he's not a great writer or anything but, I think he hit the nail on the head in regards to Swords & Sorcery gaming:

"You run the maze...you kill the monster...you get the jewel and earn bonus points...wibble, wobble, wubble."

that was from the first Otherland book about virtual RPGing. I agree that the story was a little weak on ToB but, essentially, it was not much different than say the myths about Hercules' labors or the Odyssey. It sucks being Divine Progeny, or the best gunman in the West, or the baddest m-f in the whole damn town...everyone wants to take you out. In ToB all I got to do was run around the countryside, solve some interesting puzzles, kill some very powerful monsters, and become a god. That sucks! It was no fun at all.

sigh...the ennui is just too much...the fantasy has become tiresome...guess I'll go back to my job...

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:39 am

Originally posted by Lews Therin:
<STRONG>I don't know about this, I was able to avoid a couple of fights. Specifically the Demogorgon and the Graveyard Lich. I'm not finished yet but I've really enjoyed ToB and wouldn't have missed it. As for all the fighting -- I'm attempting to replace the God of Murder so it seems appropriate that me and the other contenders should duke it out.</STRONG>

Okay, I'll cede you the point on the lich and demogorgon; even though those are two enemies my Paladin would have wanted to destroy far more than Balthazar, it was better in the end to let them go and save more lives than to kill them. Well, except for Demogorgon. I kicked his ass.
As for the rest, I wasn't trying to replace Bhaal, and I chose to excise the taint in the end rather than become a god. I was okay with killing Yaga Shura(but not Nyalee), and I didn't terribly mind killing Sendai or Abazigail. But when I faced Balthazar and I learned that he wanted the taint gone as much as I did, yet I -had- to fight him, that was the straw that broke the camel's back.