[QUOTE=darkraven]I think that you misunderstood the augment.In this battle we assumed like the characters were intelligent and so mage wouldn't just let the thief run out site not follow him.Have you forgotten about spell trigger which is cast instant.That will kill the thief before he is even about to drink another potion.There are also spells like wail of the banshee that can kill the thief if he doesn't make save.There is also wish and there is no defense againist that.[/QUOTE]
I understood, and read through the whole thread. A mage can't exactly run after you and cast a spell at the same time though.
Just a question, what would you load into the spell trigger, and would it be enough? An honest question. If I were fighting a mage 1 on 1, I'd certainly be using the belt of inertial barrier which cuts magic damage in half. Wail of the banshee might work if the thief can't make it out of the casters sight in time, and when we consider the casting time of WotB, it shouldn't be much of a problem. Wish is limited by the options you're given, so it's not a spell I would put a lot of trust into if I were the mage, but may indeed work as a last resort.
I'm all for looking at both sides of the argument here, and I've also played most classes as I'm sure most others have as well. I'd say that a mage would be a tougher opponent for a thief, and a mage may even win 10-20% of the time, but I wouldn't put it much beyond that. A mage depends on luck more than a thief does when it comes to the attack. This is all IMHO of course, and I'm sure others would disagree.
Thief or Fighter which is stronger?
You also need to ask yourself how effective running is going to be in a one on one fight.The mage can summon alot of help and some of which can see invisible creatures then haste them and they won't have a problem keeping up with the thief because they will be just as fast as he is.
The mage can also use the cloak of non-detection which will protect him from the thief so that means projected image can be use without any trouble.The projected image will be alot of problems for the thief.The mage would be able to defeat the thief more then 10-20 percent of the time.I however do think that a can thief can defeat a mage because I have knocked out quite a few mages by backstabbing them before they could do anything and they have also knocked me out a few times when the backstab failed or didn't cause enough damage to kill the mage.Any class can fall to another class it just depends on alot of factors and the thief also benefits from lucky themselves when causing damaging and backstabbing.There are quite a few potion of invisibity in game but if use them alot then you will soon be out of them.As for a good spell trigger how about using power stun in it.Magic resistance could stop it if you have enough resistance.
As for the thief vs the fighter..........It would be a poor idea for the thief to be casting spells againist the fighter because he would leave himself open to be hitting by melee damage.He would need to protect himself with defensive spell first before doing that and that can take some time.Time that he doesn't really have to spare but is possible for the thief to knock the fighter out with spells but the thief would need to have the right combo of scrolls to do that and with the right items the fighter would be able to defend themselves from the spells. To make this augment more fun I should have made a rule about there being no prep time for the fighter or thief in battle and both classes just get few potions and no magical items.
The mage can also use the cloak of non-detection which will protect him from the thief so that means projected image can be use without any trouble.The projected image will be alot of problems for the thief.The mage would be able to defeat the thief more then 10-20 percent of the time.I however do think that a can thief can defeat a mage because I have knocked out quite a few mages by backstabbing them before they could do anything and they have also knocked me out a few times when the backstab failed or didn't cause enough damage to kill the mage.Any class can fall to another class it just depends on alot of factors and the thief also benefits from lucky themselves when causing damaging and backstabbing.There are quite a few potion of invisibity in game but if use them alot then you will soon be out of them.As for a good spell trigger how about using power stun in it.Magic resistance could stop it if you have enough resistance.
As for the thief vs the fighter..........It would be a poor idea for the thief to be casting spells againist the fighter because he would leave himself open to be hitting by melee damage.He would need to protect himself with defensive spell first before doing that and that can take some time.Time that he doesn't really have to spare but is possible for the thief to knock the fighter out with spells but the thief would need to have the right combo of scrolls to do that and with the right items the fighter would be able to defend themselves from the spells. To make this augment more fun I should have made a rule about there being no prep time for the fighter or thief in battle and both classes just get few potions and no magical items.
[QUOTE=darkraven]You also need to ask yourself how effective running is going to be in a one on one fight.The mage can summon alot of help and some of which can see invisible creature then haste them and they won't have a problem keeping up with the thief because they will be just as fast as he is.[/quote]
In this case, the thief would have a tough time, but it's not hard to run in circles around the summons until they're unsummoned. Even if hasted, a thief can simply double haste themselves with an oil of speed, and that's something that every thief will have on them. Note that I'm not trying to be impracticle here, and try to counter each of your arguments with some thought up item, but items that a character would normally have on them anyways.
[QUOTE=darkraven]The mage can also use the cloak of non-detection which will protect him from the thief so that means projected image can be use without any trouble. The projected image will be alot of problems for the thief.[/quote]
Well, you stumped me here. I was going to counter this by saying that invisibility/mislead/projected image would still be dispelled by a detect illusion even with the cloak of non-detection which is true, but if the mage had staff of the magi, he wouldn't be able to dispell the invisibility. This is also a very practical item that the mage would possess. I'm afraid this would end in a stalemate, since the thief wouldn't be able to detect you, and you wouldn't be able to detect the thief.
[QUOTE=darkraven]Any class can fall to another class it just depends on alot of factors and the thief also benefits from lucky themselves when causing damaging and backstabbing.[/quote]
I totally agree with you here, but a thief equiped with the right weapon will do loads of damage regardless of what they roll. A critical miss is always a possibility as well I suppose.
[QUOTE=darkraven]As for a good spell trigger how using power stun in it.Magic resistance[/quote]
Now that you have me thinking, put power word stun in chain contingency on enemy sighted, and target closest enemy. With this combination, a mage will take out any class unless they nullify it with magic resistance. Human flesh +5. the amulet of magic resistance, and 5% from the machine of lum might give someone a fighting chance, but very slim at only 35%. Monk's and wizard slayers would naturally have a better chance against this.
[QUOTE=darkraven]As for the thief vs the fighter..........It would be a poor idea for the thief to be casting spells againist the fighter because he would leave himself open to be hitting by melee damage.He would need to protect himself with defensive spell first before doing that and that can take some time.Time that he doesn't really have to spare but is possible for the thief to knock the fighter out with spells but the thief would need to have the right combo of scrolls to do that and with the right items the fighter would be able to defend themselves from the spells.[/quote]
I agree, a thief doesn't need magic to take out a fighter, just simple tactics.
[QUOTE=darkraven]To make this augment more fun I should have made a rule about there being no prep time for the fighter or thief in battle and both class just get few potions and no magical items.[/QUOTE]
A thief rarely needs any prep at all. When I play my thieves they never need to change armor, or switch up their weapons/belts/gauntlets/etc. A fighter may have to, and a mage definately needs to, but a sorcerer doesn't. I also agree with you about limiting items/potions, but not really sure what you mean by no magical items. Does that include enchanted armor/weapons?
Certain items should be banned completely such as the cloak of mirroring which brings quite an unfair advantage to anyone facing a mage. Or in the case of an archer verses fighter using the shield of reflection to reflect all arrows back at them. Timestop also brings a pretty unfair advantage to many classes that go up agaist mages as it can be too easily abused. Actually a friend and I are going through the game on multiplayer, and we both agreed that when we get to the end, neither of us will use timestop on each other as we plan on dueling before the end battle. We're still working on that game.
In this case, the thief would have a tough time, but it's not hard to run in circles around the summons until they're unsummoned. Even if hasted, a thief can simply double haste themselves with an oil of speed, and that's something that every thief will have on them. Note that I'm not trying to be impracticle here, and try to counter each of your arguments with some thought up item, but items that a character would normally have on them anyways.
[QUOTE=darkraven]The mage can also use the cloak of non-detection which will protect him from the thief so that means projected image can be use without any trouble. The projected image will be alot of problems for the thief.[/quote]
Well, you stumped me here. I was going to counter this by saying that invisibility/mislead/projected image would still be dispelled by a detect illusion even with the cloak of non-detection which is true, but if the mage had staff of the magi, he wouldn't be able to dispell the invisibility. This is also a very practical item that the mage would possess. I'm afraid this would end in a stalemate, since the thief wouldn't be able to detect you, and you wouldn't be able to detect the thief.
[QUOTE=darkraven]Any class can fall to another class it just depends on alot of factors and the thief also benefits from lucky themselves when causing damaging and backstabbing.[/quote]
I totally agree with you here, but a thief equiped with the right weapon will do loads of damage regardless of what they roll. A critical miss is always a possibility as well I suppose.
[QUOTE=darkraven]As for a good spell trigger how using power stun in it.Magic resistance[/quote]
Now that you have me thinking, put power word stun in chain contingency on enemy sighted, and target closest enemy. With this combination, a mage will take out any class unless they nullify it with magic resistance. Human flesh +5. the amulet of magic resistance, and 5% from the machine of lum might give someone a fighting chance, but very slim at only 35%. Monk's and wizard slayers would naturally have a better chance against this.
[QUOTE=darkraven]As for the thief vs the fighter..........It would be a poor idea for the thief to be casting spells againist the fighter because he would leave himself open to be hitting by melee damage.He would need to protect himself with defensive spell first before doing that and that can take some time.Time that he doesn't really have to spare but is possible for the thief to knock the fighter out with spells but the thief would need to have the right combo of scrolls to do that and with the right items the fighter would be able to defend themselves from the spells.[/quote]
I agree, a thief doesn't need magic to take out a fighter, just simple tactics.
[QUOTE=darkraven]To make this augment more fun I should have made a rule about there being no prep time for the fighter or thief in battle and both class just get few potions and no magical items.[/QUOTE]
A thief rarely needs any prep at all. When I play my thieves they never need to change armor, or switch up their weapons/belts/gauntlets/etc. A fighter may have to, and a mage definately needs to, but a sorcerer doesn't. I also agree with you about limiting items/potions, but not really sure what you mean by no magical items. Does that include enchanted armor/weapons?
Certain items should be banned completely such as the cloak of mirroring which brings quite an unfair advantage to anyone facing a mage. Or in the case of an archer verses fighter using the shield of reflection to reflect all arrows back at them. Timestop also brings a pretty unfair advantage to many classes that go up agaist mages as it can be too easily abused. Actually a friend and I are going through the game on multiplayer, and we both agreed that when we get to the end, neither of us will use timestop on each other as we plan on dueling before the end battle. We're still working on that game.
I would remove all magically item besides the weapon and armors.The weapons and armors would just be simple +3 items.Nothing that would give any extra bonus would be fine for a debate like this because it would remove all these annoy factor like this item can counter this or that.
I can really tell that you do love the thief and while I like them I love magic more.While I do know that a thief can defeat both a mage and fighter they can both defeat a thief.Any class can defeat the other with the right tactics.
I can really tell that you do love the thief and while I like them I love magic more.While I do know that a thief can defeat both a mage and fighter they can both defeat a thief.Any class can defeat the other with the right tactics.
[QUOTE=darkraven]I would remove all magically item besides the weapon and armors.The weapons and armors would just be simple +3 items.Nothing that would give any extra bonus would be fine for a debate like this because it would remove all these annoy factor like this item can counter this or that.[/quote]
I like this idea. Simple +3 weapons with no added bonuses like you'd get from say the celestial fury. Even the cloak of non-detection is pretty overpowered. I'd take it a few steps further than this though, and get rid of any items from the bonus merchants such as the robe of vecna, helm of simulacrum, etc. No HLA's, and no items that improve saving throws. Heck, staff of the magi is even too much. I would also not allow characters to exceed the 3 million experience cap. HP and saving throws are just too ridiculous beyond that.
[QUOTE=darkraven]I can really tell that you do love the thief and while I like them I love magic more.While I do know that a thief can defeat both a mage and fighter they can both defeat a thief.Any class can defeat the other with the right tactics.[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, I do love thiefs. My first solo through the game was with a mage, and enjoyed it quite a bit, but found little challenge. I even played without the robe of vecna as I found the item was too cheesy, but that's my opinion on it. Back to the subject of power word stun though, I went to the description, and read that it only works on enemies with 90hp or less, as I thought I had read before, so it might not be the greatest spell to use on most classes in the game.
[QUOTE=Sononara]I think in this thread, thiefs are being vastly over rated. Fighters, being vastly under rated.
What if a fighter was wearing ring of invisibilty? or boots of speed, or some of other enhancing item. Fighters can use items to you know.[/quote]
I never said that fighters couldn't use these items previously, but fighters are generally tactically challenged against certain classes. A fighter basically has 2 options. Attack, or run. Fighters can certainly hide, but they can't detect illusions. A thief can detect illusions, and have you wondering why you had that ring of invisibility on in the first place.
I like this idea. Simple +3 weapons with no added bonuses like you'd get from say the celestial fury. Even the cloak of non-detection is pretty overpowered. I'd take it a few steps further than this though, and get rid of any items from the bonus merchants such as the robe of vecna, helm of simulacrum, etc. No HLA's, and no items that improve saving throws. Heck, staff of the magi is even too much. I would also not allow characters to exceed the 3 million experience cap. HP and saving throws are just too ridiculous beyond that.
[QUOTE=darkraven]I can really tell that you do love the thief and while I like them I love magic more.While I do know that a thief can defeat both a mage and fighter they can both defeat a thief.Any class can defeat the other with the right tactics.[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, I do love thiefs. My first solo through the game was with a mage, and enjoyed it quite a bit, but found little challenge. I even played without the robe of vecna as I found the item was too cheesy, but that's my opinion on it. Back to the subject of power word stun though, I went to the description, and read that it only works on enemies with 90hp or less, as I thought I had read before, so it might not be the greatest spell to use on most classes in the game.
[QUOTE=Sononara]I think in this thread, thiefs are being vastly over rated. Fighters, being vastly under rated.
What if a fighter was wearing ring of invisibilty? or boots of speed, or some of other enhancing item. Fighters can use items to you know.[/quote]
I never said that fighters couldn't use these items previously, but fighters are generally tactically challenged against certain classes. A fighter basically has 2 options. Attack, or run. Fighters can certainly hide, but they can't detect illusions. A thief can detect illusions, and have you wondering why you had that ring of invisibility on in the first place.
[QUOTE=Sononara]I think in this thread, thiefs are being vastly over rated. Fighters, being vastly under rated.
What if a fighter was wearing ring of invisibilty? or boots of speed, or some of other enhancing item. Fighters can use items to you know.[/QUOTE]
Sononara You are so right.People keep forgetting that the fighter is a strong class as well and that they have alot of access to magical item as well that can protect and help them in harder fights.
[QUOTE=Spectator]I like this idea. Simple +3 weapons with no added bonuses like you'd get from say the celestial fury. Even the cloak of non-detection is pretty overpowered. I'd take it a few steps further than this though, and get rid of any items from the bonus merchants such as the robe of vecna, helm of simulacrum, etc. No HLA's, and no items that improve saving throws. Heck, staff of the magi is even too much. I would also not allow characters to exceed the 3 million experience cap. HP and saving throws are just too ridiculous beyond that.[/QUOTE]
You do realize that will limit the thiefs abilties greatly and he will be less protected againist alot of the things that the mage do to him.For one the mage will be able to cast true sight and detect the theif and then it will only be a matter of time before he loses.Power word stun might not be the best spell so let me change that Bigby's Clenched Fist.There are alot of people that don't count TOB because they found the game to be boring with all HLA's and magic items.I for one think that the game would have been better without the HLA's because can make thing very dull.The traps for one should expire when you rest or leave the area and time stop should be removed from the game.The story in TOB was also poorly written and didn't do justice to the earlier chapters.
What if a fighter was wearing ring of invisibilty? or boots of speed, or some of other enhancing item. Fighters can use items to you know.[/QUOTE]
Sononara You are so right.People keep forgetting that the fighter is a strong class as well and that they have alot of access to magical item as well that can protect and help them in harder fights.
[QUOTE=Spectator]I like this idea. Simple +3 weapons with no added bonuses like you'd get from say the celestial fury. Even the cloak of non-detection is pretty overpowered. I'd take it a few steps further than this though, and get rid of any items from the bonus merchants such as the robe of vecna, helm of simulacrum, etc. No HLA's, and no items that improve saving throws. Heck, staff of the magi is even too much. I would also not allow characters to exceed the 3 million experience cap. HP and saving throws are just too ridiculous beyond that.[/QUOTE]
You do realize that will limit the thiefs abilties greatly and he will be less protected againist alot of the things that the mage do to him.For one the mage will be able to cast true sight and detect the theif and then it will only be a matter of time before he loses.Power word stun might not be the best spell so let me change that Bigby's Clenched Fist.There are alot of people that don't count TOB because they found the game to be boring with all HLA's and magic items.I for one think that the game would have been better without the HLA's because can make thing very dull.The traps for one should expire when you rest or leave the area and time stop should be removed from the game.The story in TOB was also poorly written and didn't do justice to the earlier chapters.
[QUOTE=darkraven]You do realize that will limit the thiefs abilties greatly and he will be less protected againist alot of the things that the mage do to him.For one the mage will be able to cast true sight and detect the theif and then it will only be a matter of time before he loses.[/quote]
Absolutely. The cloak of non-detection is one of the thiefs most powerful items, and would certainly limit their abilities without it. If a mage started casting true sight, the thief would be out of there in no time until it wore off, and we all know what the casting of that one sounds like. The mage could run after the thief, and that would certainly pose a problem for him. With the cloak, the thief has an unfair advantage, and that's what we're trying to get rid of right? I'm all for fairness, and without that cloak, the thief stands a far greater chance of losing.
[QUOTE=darkraven]Power word stun might not be the best spell so let me change that Bigby's Clenched Fist.There are alot of people that don't count TOB because they found the game to be boring with all HLA's and magic items.I for one think that the game would have been better without the HLA's because can make thing very dull.The traps for one should expire when you rest or leave the area and time stop should be removed from the game.The story in TOB was also poorly written and didn't do justice to the earlier chapters.[/QUOTE]
Well, I'm glad that we both agree on this. I also found the TOB story kind of lame.
Currently playing with a party on tactics, and I'm having one heck of a time. Sure makes the game more interesting though.
Absolutely. The cloak of non-detection is one of the thiefs most powerful items, and would certainly limit their abilities without it. If a mage started casting true sight, the thief would be out of there in no time until it wore off, and we all know what the casting of that one sounds like. The mage could run after the thief, and that would certainly pose a problem for him. With the cloak, the thief has an unfair advantage, and that's what we're trying to get rid of right? I'm all for fairness, and without that cloak, the thief stands a far greater chance of losing.
[QUOTE=darkraven]Power word stun might not be the best spell so let me change that Bigby's Clenched Fist.There are alot of people that don't count TOB because they found the game to be boring with all HLA's and magic items.I for one think that the game would have been better without the HLA's because can make thing very dull.The traps for one should expire when you rest or leave the area and time stop should be removed from the game.The story in TOB was also poorly written and didn't do justice to the earlier chapters.[/QUOTE]
Well, I'm glad that we both agree on this. I also found the TOB story kind of lame.
Currently playing with a party on tactics, and I'm having one heck of a time. Sure makes the game more interesting though.
[QUOTE=Deadalready]By removing magical properties from the battles I think you're totally overpowering the mage, without items or decent items I fail to see how either a rogue or fighter can counter Protection from Magical Weapons. Without having access to elemental damage either neither the rogue or fighter will have much of a chance against Stoneskin.
When you think about the game if you were to take away all items and armour from all the characters (which essentially you are doing), which character is not useless? The mage is the only one that can really attack or defend and is pretty much unaffected by item restrictions. The fighter on the depends on his weapons to do damage and his armour to avoid it, while the thief requires his potions and boots to use tactics.
I think that idea needs a rethink.[/QUOTE]
I agree with every word in this post but the reason that we removed magical items from the debate is to make this debate a little more interesting.Magical item can change everything and that can change the battle around since there are item that can counter everything.I think that we can allow the magical items but the HLA'S need to be removed because that adds a little to much to the mix.
I also really do think that alot of people don't give fighters enough credit.The fighter are the one in battle that take the damage that allow for spellcaster to get there spells.They also take the damage so that thieves don't have to take the damage.While they do need support from spellcasters to be effective in battle the spellcasters need them to be just as effective.In baldurs gate all classes need some help in some department.The thief isn't much a frontline fighter which can limit there use againist those enemies that can see invisible creatures and game is loaded with them.Backstabbing isn't an option againist them and traps can't be set some of the times and that why I love the fighters because I can just send them in there and they will take care of that with some help from the spellcaster and thieves.I have always used thieves to remove mages from combat quickly before they can start casting there spells.I see the benefits of both classes and each is strong in there own right but I don't agree that the thief is all powerfully and rule over all.
When you think about the game if you were to take away all items and armour from all the characters (which essentially you are doing), which character is not useless? The mage is the only one that can really attack or defend and is pretty much unaffected by item restrictions. The fighter on the depends on his weapons to do damage and his armour to avoid it, while the thief requires his potions and boots to use tactics.
I think that idea needs a rethink.[/QUOTE]
I agree with every word in this post but the reason that we removed magical items from the debate is to make this debate a little more interesting.Magical item can change everything and that can change the battle around since there are item that can counter everything.I think that we can allow the magical items but the HLA'S need to be removed because that adds a little to much to the mix.
I also really do think that alot of people don't give fighters enough credit.The fighter are the one in battle that take the damage that allow for spellcaster to get there spells.They also take the damage so that thieves don't have to take the damage.While they do need support from spellcasters to be effective in battle the spellcasters need them to be just as effective.In baldurs gate all classes need some help in some department.The thief isn't much a frontline fighter which can limit there use againist those enemies that can see invisible creatures and game is loaded with them.Backstabbing isn't an option againist them and traps can't be set some of the times and that why I love the fighters because I can just send them in there and they will take care of that with some help from the spellcaster and thieves.I have always used thieves to remove mages from combat quickly before they can start casting there spells.I see the benefits of both classes and each is strong in there own right but I don't agree that the thief is all powerfully and rule over all.
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Jedi_Sauraus
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Hmm fighter vs thief, I'd have to say fighter. Barbarians are Immune to backstab and can have over 100% damage resistance. if a thief starts casting anything from a scroll he's dead before it can go off anyway. The only possible way for a thief to win this contest is to keep on cheesing with staff of magi invisibility, which is hardly a fair contest but I imagine their has to be a way around it.
and if you throw them both in the a ring with only average items- no cheesiness, the barbarian is still alot faster, still immune to backstab and still has considerable resistance vs all kinds of damage no to mention better thaco more attack/round and a hell of alot more hp's
and if you throw them both in the a ring with only average items- no cheesiness, the barbarian is still alot faster, still immune to backstab and still has considerable resistance vs all kinds of damage no to mention better thaco more attack/round and a hell of alot more hp's
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Crenshinibon
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Just to spite Jed, I'll go with Thief. (Don't get me wrong about the other thread, I'm just there for the arguing)
One of the greatest advantages of a thief is that they can cast spells. So, if I planned to use spells during that battle, I'd probably have the Robe of Vecna on me. I'd probably open up with SS. Run around for a round, then cast time stop or maybe Tenser's Transformation. Even without backstabs, the Thief is a potent foe. Yes, even the normal one. In the case of a Bounty Hunter however, the battle is pretty much done.
Opening it up with Maze. No save, duration dependent on Intelligence. So, the Barbarian, or fighter has a low Intelligence score, so the duration would be randing from 2d4 turns to 1d4 rounds assuming that the character has 18 intelligence.
So, the character is Mazed, no longer there. Spike Trap. Improved Snare.
Just alternating between that combination is enough.
One of the greatest advantages of a thief is that they can cast spells. So, if I planned to use spells during that battle, I'd probably have the Robe of Vecna on me. I'd probably open up with SS. Run around for a round, then cast time stop or maybe Tenser's Transformation. Even without backstabs, the Thief is a potent foe. Yes, even the normal one. In the case of a Bounty Hunter however, the battle is pretty much done.
Opening it up with Maze. No save, duration dependent on Intelligence. So, the Barbarian, or fighter has a low Intelligence score, so the duration would be randing from 2d4 turns to 1d4 rounds assuming that the character has 18 intelligence.
So, the character is Mazed, no longer there. Spike Trap. Improved Snare.
Just alternating between that combination is enough.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
This fight should be without any equipment aside from non-magical weapon & armour of choice. This keeps away the argument of "well, if the thief had this and the fighter had that..." and lets it depend on the class and not the magic items. I tried this with a friend recently on Multiplayer giving it 3 tries... I played a berserker, barbarian, plain fighter and he played a swashbuckler, assassin, bounty hunter
Try it at level 1--fighter wins
Try it at level 7--fighter wins (the thief did manage to pull off a nasty backstab on me this time but he still wound up as dogfood)
Try it at level 18--fighter wins
Traps don't work when setting them within sight of the enemy and thieves don't deal out nearly enough damage without backstab and have crappy THACOs...
Try it at level 1--fighter wins
Try it at level 7--fighter wins (the thief did manage to pull off a nasty backstab on me this time but he still wound up as dogfood)
Try it at level 18--fighter wins
Traps don't work when setting them within sight of the enemy and thieves don't deal out nearly enough damage without backstab and have crappy THACOs...
"Korax thinks you look very tasty today...
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Crenshinibon
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This particular fight, when performed without items, is made in favor of fighters. It's not much of a fight as it's just fist mashing and there really is no strategy involved in that. The one simulated in the Fighter vs. Mage thread was valid as both classes were able to hold their ground without items.
As we're counting Monks and Barbarians, are we also including Bards?
As we're counting Monks and Barbarians, are we also including Bards?
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Jedi_Sauraus
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yep I forgot about the bounty hunter, and it seems your right Crenshinibon. funny thing is your using the same arguements I'm using in the other thread of course if a thief uses mage spells he may win, but I was under the impresion that casting from a scroll, while uninteruptable, is hard coded to a full round. if that's the case a GWW should kill you out right while your casting. (you don't have ss yet)
if a thief can use mage scrolls and gets casting time subtracted by vecna and amulet of power the yeah the thief will win, if maze traps go through rage then yeah thief will win, but that being said don't you have some cheesy potion up your sleeve that can counter this ??
just for arguements sake however if a barbariam opens up with hardiness which at level 40 should last 2 turns granting him over 100% damage resistance how are you going to kill him ?? you can disable quite well but how do you kill??? traps go through stone skin but I'm nite sure if they ignore resistance. I'm assuming you want to kill him as a thief in melee or traping now I know you can time stop and shape change but that kind of tactic belongs in the other thread which proves mage superiority
of course if a thief uses mage spells he may win, but I was under the impresion that casting from a scroll, while uninteruptable, is hard coded to a full round. if that's the case a GWW should kill you out right while your casting. (you don't have ss yet)if a thief can use mage scrolls and gets casting time subtracted by vecna and amulet of power the yeah the thief will win, if maze traps go through rage then yeah thief will win, but that being said don't you have some cheesy potion up your sleeve that can counter this ??
just for arguements sake however if a barbariam opens up with hardiness which at level 40 should last 2 turns granting him over 100% damage resistance how are you going to kill him ?? you can disable quite well but how do you kill??? traps go through stone skin but I'm nite sure if they ignore resistance. I'm assuming you want to kill him as a thief in melee or traping now I know you can time stop and shape change but that kind of tactic belongs in the other thread which proves mage superiority
Fist mashing? No. With all due respect to the highly experienced players on this forum I mean no disrespect to any of you but we tried several different scenarios...We started on opposite corners on a pre-cleared map (Friendly Arm Inn for lvl 1 & 7 and D'Arnise Keep for lvl 18) so we wouldn't have to worry about randomly spawned party crashers . This gave the thief time to do his Hide, Sneak & Stab routine and time to lay out whatever traps he wanted. We both took armour and weapon of choice...non-magical. It starts getting a bit of a peeing contest when we talk about if he had this or if she had that. Fighter with Big Metal Unit for armour and Big Metal Rod for weapon.... got a solution for that, my little squishy thief?
. This gave the thief time to do his Hide, Sneak & Stab routine and time to lay out whatever traps he wanted. We both took armour and weapon of choice...non-magical. It starts getting a bit of a peeing contest when we talk about if he had this or if she had that. Fighter with Big Metal Unit for armour and Big Metal Rod for weapon.... got a solution for that, my little squishy thief? "Korax thinks you look very tasty today...
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Crenshinibon
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Sure, Imprisonment. XD
You never mentioned the use of any weapons before. Also, unfortunately you can't really call what you did a fair fight, if I understood it correctly, because both of you were most likely in the same party (unless there is some mod that lets the two of you go hostile), and that, completely negates all of the traps, which are an important part of the thief class. Sure, the thief can lay down traps, but if you're testing this against a human player, none of them will activate. At those levels, it's really just did you make the roll or didn't you make the roll. Besides, a level one thief has no real advantage over a fighter.
Jed: Actually, I'm not sure if this is correct, but although it says that the Barbarian gains +5% resistance per level, I do believe that it caps somewhere in the twenties or thirties. Without the ability to go hostile we can't really test the potency of thieves and mages to their fullest effect as both, the traps and some high level spells do not affect party members. Even though the Wild Mage is my favorite class, one of, I can't stand when people say that this class is better than the other. the AIs just don't have enough flexibility that a human player has. If, the Barbarian has low Intelligence, as in three or so, he could be trapped for turns. Again, we can't really test this unless there is a way for us to go hostile.
You never mentioned the use of any weapons before. Also, unfortunately you can't really call what you did a fair fight, if I understood it correctly, because both of you were most likely in the same party (unless there is some mod that lets the two of you go hostile), and that, completely negates all of the traps, which are an important part of the thief class. Sure, the thief can lay down traps, but if you're testing this against a human player, none of them will activate. At those levels, it's really just did you make the roll or didn't you make the roll. Besides, a level one thief has no real advantage over a fighter.
Jed: Actually, I'm not sure if this is correct, but although it says that the Barbarian gains +5% resistance per level, I do believe that it caps somewhere in the twenties or thirties. Without the ability to go hostile we can't really test the potency of thieves and mages to their fullest effect as both, the traps and some high level spells do not affect party members. Even though the Wild Mage is my favorite class, one of, I can't stand when people say that this class is better than the other. the AIs just don't have enough flexibility that a human player has. If, the Barbarian has low Intelligence, as in three or so, he could be trapped for turns. Again, we can't really test this unless there is a way for us to go hostile.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
Don't get me wrong. I love thieves, a well played thief can wreak havok. Fighters and thieves are my fave classes. I simply view this as an argument over magic items available to the classes and not the classes themselves. All classes have abilities which make them unique and useful (if they didn't there would be no use in having them in the game). But, I would rather play a poorly equipped fighter than a poorly equipped thief.
"Korax thinks you look very tasty today...
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Crenshinibon
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I believe that, in the scenario you described, with normal weapons, while a Fighter may win at the beginning, a Thief will win in the end due to the nature of the epic abilities that he gains. Sure, the fighter may have Greater Whiirlwind and Hardiness on his side, but the Thief's traps will finish it. Not to mention Assassination and Greater Evasion.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”