Monks

Andrinor · Post by **Andrinor** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:37 am

At what level is a monk's fist considered a +4 weapon? Also, when does magic resistance max out? It seems to me that with abilities like these, along with the steadily decreasing natural armor class of the monk, he is the unparalleled best class in the game...anyone dispute this?

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:47 am

I think monks are a neat class but somewhat weak myself. I suggest you read the threat 'Monk vs Sorcerer vs Kensai/Mage' and you will see what I mean.

Most of the Monk's special abilities can either be duplicated and/or negated with items....and Monks have the poorest item selection in the game. This is the quick version of why monks aren't as strong as you think. Others may wish to expound on this.

-Polaris

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:53 am

HEHEHEH...poor polaris..

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:59 am

Edwin,

What was that about? I am quite right when I say that monks are not as good as some think. I have yet to see a good monk ability that can not be counters and/or duplicated with magic and/or items.

I again refer you to the thread I mentioned earlier.

-Polaris

KillerKid · Post by **KillerKid** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:07 am

it pisses me off that its true a monk only seems good because when you start in tob he is the best because he basicaly comes with his best possible weapon and armor his hands and his well back hair hehe but if you imported like CeFu, holy avenger, crom, kick ass armor, rings, ammys, ect the monk is weak when you take all those factors into play now i have found my monk doing 20% of all deaths through the whole game but seravok and korgan did most of the "real" damage because of they high ass dmgs i mean seravok dealing 200 dmg on 1 of those explodings hits on low levels which is VERY NICE in fact i killed that grom guy or what ever in the the first town i basicaly took him down with 1 seravok hit lol i also can pretty much solo most of the game with my monk it would just take longer

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:37 am

*shrug*

I almost always play ToB as a continuation of SoA. As such my parties are almost always equipped to the hilt from the very beginning of the game.

Now if you go to Irenicus' dungeon, then YES, the Monk has a veritable FIELD DAY. In Chapter 1 (and very early chapter two), he is easily the best character around.....until everyone else starts getting gear.....

-Polaris

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:51 am

I agree that the 'Monk butchered by K/M & Co' thread just about says it all. Furthermore, [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=003145"]this[/url] excellent thread by Kensai Ryu also picks Monks to pieces pretty well.

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 8:54 am

I think that a monk between 2mil and 3 mill Xp was one of the strongest characters before they brought the patch out that prevents him using wands. But, after about 3 mill, the mages spells are too powerful and now that he can't use wands ,well that weakened him further. That guy who did the fight against the kensai/mage et al stood no chance. In that situation, the monk isn't able to use his stealth abilities which is what makes a monk even more devastating.

I think the only decent weapon for a monk is a throwing knife; I think you can buy one in the Underdark.

[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: Fezek ]

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 9:14 am

Oh yes, good evening everyone!

frudi · Post by **frudi** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:05 pm

what possible use have the kensai vs monk, kensai/mage vs monk, fighter vs monk and similar tests in determening which class is better for playing through the game? how many kensais do you face in a game? how many pure high level fighters? kensai/mages?
the monk vs sorcerer vs kensai/mage battle was a lost cause for the monk anyway, there's just no way for a fighter type to compete against a spellcaster at high levels. so now monks suck because they loose badly to spellcasters? like any other fighter type class would do any better... so I guess that means that only spellcasters are any good??
with that said, I'm not even gonna compare monks to spellcasters; those are two completely different worlds. but between fighting classes, I consider the monk to be the best. with a better-than-fighter's AC, similar or better THAC0 and imunity to poison, desease and pretty much all spells except Imprisonment, the monk can handle more situations than anyone else. I also don't remember a monk ever being dominated, charmed, stunned or scared. he's just the most versatile character around.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:18 pm

*IF* you are talking about a naked monk, then I will agree.

However, if you include the use of gear, I will take a straight fighter (in ToB) over a Monk any day of the week and twice on tuesdays.

1. Monks can NOT be hasted. This is a major drawback in ToB.

2. Monks are lousy at using any weapon but their fists. This is a major drawback because they only count as +3 weapons. Everyone else will have +5 weapons before long.

3. Immunities? Yawn. Psion Blade, Lilacor, Helms of X protection, etc etc. A properly tanked out fighter is pretty much immune to everything too.

Finally fighters simply have more hit points, lower AC (with the right gear), more hitting power (don't forget that Hindo's Doom deathwards...and most upper level monsters are immune from death magic), have more hit points, and with gear have better immunities and the same (if not better) abilities than the monk.

-Polaris

frudi · Post by **frudi** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:03 pm

with greater whirlwind, I couldn't care less for haste. sure, it doesn't last long, but you have enough of them to get you through a couple tough fights without resting.
and a monks AC IS lower than a fighters! I got my monk down to -18, hard to achieve with a fighter, even if you use a shield (but then, who doesn't dual-wield or use 2h weapons). at high level monks natural AC is -4 (that's what the game tells me anyways), the best armours in the game are -2 and you can't use a ring of protection with any of them.
their THAC0 is about equal to that of a fighter, but with Gauntlets of Crushing it usually goes a little lower.
as for monk's fists being only +3 - there isn't a single creature in the game I haven't been able to hit with a monk's fist. so this is completely irrelevant.
and of the various resistances, the one that really matters is magic resistance and even the Cloak of Mirroring can't offer the same level of protection. fire and cold resistance can be raised via rings and boots which the monk can use, so he's at no disadvantage there.

the only real problem I found with monks is the low HP. now this isn't a problem in SoA since there are no powerful melee enemies, but I'll admit I sometimes did find it thrustrating in ToB, when enemies on insane difficulty deal up to 80 damage in a single blow, which is more than half his HP, even when maxed out at lvl 40 and with some HP increasing gear.

]RiPPeR[ · Post by **]RiPPeR[** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:13 pm

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>I think monks are a neat class but somewhat weak myself. I suggest you read the threat 'Monk vs Sorcerer vs Kensai/Mage' and you will see what I mean.

Most of the Monk's special abilities can either be duplicated and/or negated with items....and Monks have the poorest item selection in the game. This is the quick version of why monks aren't as strong as you think. Others may wish to expound on this.

-Polaris</STRONG>

i think you should play with a monk before thinking he is a bad character, i soloed with a monk troought SoA/ToB and it was not dificult(ok is was dificult but not that dificult) i dont know if i could solo with a fighter (or kits) i think the only class wich can surpasses the monk's armor class is the swashbuckler/fighter

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:17 pm

Yeah, in the final SoA battle

#Spoiler#

my monk killed two of the demons with one punch respectively. That was fast! Admittedly, my mage cast Greater Malison prior to the event, but still it was #THE# coolest fight EVER!!

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 5:13 pm

I have played monks, and they *aren't* that great. A fighter can have inmproved haste on him (and he gets whirlwind attacks TOO).

As for the AC, in game the difference between a -12 AC and a -18 AC is not really all that much (trust me on this), and those armors do MORE than just lower your AC...most also give abilities as well.

Monks LOOK good on paper, but I recommend *again* that you read some of the prior threads. In a well rounded party, a monk simply loses out to a straight fighter.

-Polaris

DrowElf86 · Post by **DrowElf86** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 5:48 pm

I may be wrong but i believe monks fists dont go above +3 and the resistence at lvl 40 is 82% hope this helps but im not sure about the fist part

]RiPPeR[ · Post by **]RiPPeR[** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 6:08 pm

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG> In a well rounded party, a monk simply loses out to a straight fighter.

-Polaris</STRONG>

i do not doubt that, im not telling that a monk win a fighter on a 1x1, but i think that the monk imunities and habilities in geral are better, you know, a fighter cannot have 100% magic resistance , nor can kill a npc with 1 blow nor can be almost unhittable by missiles(my ac vs missiles in level 40 was about -35)

frudi · Post by **frudi** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 8:27 pm

In a well rounded party, a monk simply loses out to a straight fighter.

in my view, a monk can do anything that the fighter can, maybe some things not as effectively, but he can also do some stuff that the fighter can't.
now, I've never played with a fighter PC and in my game with a monk I used Keldorn and Minsc as my other tanks. they're not fighters by class, but still make pretty decent butt-kickers. still neither of them came close to the monks number of kills (over 50%). that's mostly the consequence of the fact that the monk could handle many enemies on his own, which neither of them could take by them selves; Minsc, dual-wielding FoA and Crom Faeyr could never reliably take on an Adamantite Golem alone for instance, while the monk had no problems with it, even if it was supported by Stone/Clay Golems. another example is the group of Rakshasha and Maharadjas guarding the temple in Suldenesselar, which the monk disposed of by himself (the chain lightnings and cloudkills kept the rest of the party away). other characters would fail at it without special preparations. not to mention all the liches, mages, Irenicus, all of the guardians of the Final Seal... the magic resistance makes a huge difference! not to mention Firkraag and Shadow dragon, which fell to the Quivering palm (no reloading). the palm thingie is pretty useless against ToB bosses, but can still take out some stronger non-boss enemies.

and all those abilities some armors give - it's mostly just protection from some sort of elemental damage. but as I said, fire and cold resistance can be improved with rings and boots, and just how often do you get hurt by electrical damage? what's left is Shuruppak's +1 Dexterity and Balduran's +1 Charisma and +4 HP, neither of which makes much of a difference.

now to clarify something - yes, monks natural magic resistance doesn't reach 100 (maxes out at 78 I think), but with the tear of bhaal and machine of lum, plus the ring of gaxx and amulet of power it goes above 100. and as for his fists - they may not go above +3 but as I said, he has been able to hit every single creature in the game (with the honorable exception of magical golems). he can also have some +5 sword and a plain non-magical katana equiped to deal with (improved) mantle and protection from magical weapons. sure he only has one attack/round with weapons but there's always greater whirlwind...

but I think that there's no use in fighting over the subject, as I'm aware it is in a large part a matter of personal playing style. me, I just love the freedom the monks' combination of excelent AC, THAC0, speed and of course great resistances gives me.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 11:25 pm

Actually a fighting type CAN have 100% magic resistance.

It's called protection from magic (the scroll...which monks can not use). For a good real-time hour, you are immune from all magic.

Also a Paladin weilding Crom-Faeyr and quaffing 1 potion of magic shielding *easily* breaches 100% MR....and even w/o the potion has a base MR of 75% which isn't shabby.

I have played both, and let me tell you that monks IMO are a lot better on paper than they really play. This is *especially* true against your more powerful duals.

-Polaris

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 11:28 pm

About taking out adamantite golems solo (even with clay golems about). I have done it....and it was easy. Granted I was using a F/Mu dual, but before you cry foul, I did NOT use any magic. 1 F/Mu+1Rod of Smiting (with grandmastery in staff)=a whole lot of dead golems. For that matter (as long as you had the FoAges as backup for clay golems), 1 *straight* fighter+1Silver Sword=a whole lot of dead golems.

-Polaris