Dragons in ToB (spoilers)(nothing to do with killing stratagies)

Mr. Clark · Post by **Mr. Clark** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:30 pm

This topic may have been covered, but I don't like to read spoiler topics about ToB because I have yet to finish the game.

I'm assuming in this game that the Bhaalspawn are pretty young....like around 25 or 30. So that also goes for Abazagal, not to mention his son Draconis. Now I'm no dragon expert, but don't dragons take awhile to age????? Shouldn't Abazagal be a little baby dragon by now?? Not some HUGE blue dragon???

Oh...one other thing. Shouldn't Draconis be the same species/color dragon as his daddy????

Mr. Clark

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:03 pm

Of Bhaal knowing about his impending death, we know only that he knew he would die during the Time of Troubles. We were never told when Bhaal had this vision of his impending demise. Perhaps he had this preomonition several years before and got started early on his dragon-child.

I dug out my old Monster Manual, 4th Edition (Gary Gygax; Lake Geneva, WI: TSR, Inc. Books; 1979; p. 29-31) to check up on how tough Abazigal should have been had he been born a regular dragon. According to the age chart, a sub-adult dragon is 16-25 years old and a young adult is 26-50 years old. Let's give Abazigal the benefit of the doubt and go with your high estimate of 30 years old, so he should have had 4 HP per die (Of course I could make another argument that he should be younger since conventional dragon lore dictates that dragon egg gestation takes considerably longer than the nine months for a human birth; often eggs incubate for years after fertilization before hatching).

Blue Dragons have 8-10 Hit Dice (we know he was a blue because he dropped blue dragon scales after being killed), and let's assume that being the child of a divine conception, he had the full 10 HD. By the old rules, Abazigal should have had 40 HP. I don't know about you, but I dealt Abazigal more than 120 HP of damage and he still wiped the floor with me before I beat him.

(Just for comparison, I checked up in the D&D3 Monster Manual (Monte Cook, Jonathan Tweet, Skip Williams, editors; Renton, WA: Wizards of the Coast Books; 2000; p. 61-66) which says that a juvenille Blue Dragon should have 15d12+45 HD or 142 HP on the bell curve and 225 HP max; that's more like it!)

From this we can come to one of three conclusions: 1) the designers used the D&D3 rules to create Abazigal; they did put some other D&D3 things in the game so this is plausible, 2) Bhaal got frisky with a Blue Dragon earlier and had a child much earlier than the Time of Troubles; this is not unreasonable given that he may have been sitting on his death vision for centuries and that other gods (particularly the greek kind) had lots of children with mortals, or 3) the designers simply wanted one of your siblings to be a dragon and just made him up that way, knowing full well that some idiot (like me!) would put a lot of time and energy into figuring out how they did it.

About Draconis, since Bhaal was his grandfather, the "divine taint" could have made him any colour from the spectrum (a cop-out answer meaning that the designers wanted him to look different from his dad).

Hope this helps. I have way too much free time.

Mr. Clark · Post by **Mr. Clark** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 5:46 pm

I can buy the stuff about Abazagal, but I just don't see how his baby boy could be that tough (I had far more trouble with Draconis than I did with Abazagal).

Thanks for the information.

coolguyclay · Post by **coolguyclay** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:28 pm

Spoiler if you havn't done Watcher's Keep
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

I haven't fought those Blue Dragons yet (but haven't read any hints either) but in Watchers keep I met that Mighty Salendrex (or whatever), the red dragon. My right hand half-orc was wearing the Red Dragon Scales and no one noticed. Doesn't it say in the Armor Description that you shouldnt' wear Red Dragon scales around a red dragon. Oh well, guess he didnt' care.

I'm sort of hoping these blue guys will give me a run for the money. I have a very fighter heavy party and every dragon I meet just gets a beat down, it's barely fair. With all the hype, it seems they will. Till then I'll work on this Demogorgon. Later.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:54 am

How can Draconis (being a Bhaalspawn) have a father? I don't know what the designers were thinking, but as far as I know, divine conception still requires females...

Did the protagonist, Imoen and Sarevok ever learn who their fathers were? All I heard so far was about mothers and foster fathers...

Zartuul · Post by **Zartuul** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 1:56 am

Draconis was pretty tough...

I reloaded the fight a few times just to fight it over again after I won, don't think I ever made it though the fight without someone getting killed. Few times everyone died. Woe be to the one whom doesn't have true sight when fighting him. The times that I lost he was still alive after all my true sights wore off or my true sight people were dead.

Raphtyr · Post by **Raphtyr** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 4:17 am

Drac was not a Bhaalspawn. He was a Bhaalspawnspawn.
Drac is Ab's son, Ab is Bhaal's son.
Drac is Bhaal's Grandson.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 5:48 am

Originally posted by Raphtyr:
Drac was not a Bhaalspawn. He was a Bhaalspawnspawn.

Ah

That explains. However, it does mean Bhaal had to be even earlier with Ab. Like 60 years pre-BG1 at the very least.

How old would the other Bhaalspawn be? Balthazar is human, so couldn't be much older than 50 (he'd be over the hill). I have no idea what the lifespan of Fire Giants is, but Drow can get pretty old. Imoen is, what, 19? Sarevok would be 30 or so at the end of BG1. Maybe he aged in Hell?

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 6:57 am

I think the age of your divine siblings goes back to the question of how long did Bhaal know he was going to die.

We know that Bhaal foresaw that he, Myrkul, and Bane were going to bite it during the Time of Troubles. If he had this vision a couple of days before Ao expelled all of the gods (except Helm) from the pantheon, then he would only have had a couple of months to start making babies. We could then surmise that all of his children would be about the same age (give or take a few months for variable gestation times among the various races). This would mean that one of his children who was a dragon or dwarf would be markedly less mature (for its species) than a goblin child.

I would argue, based on the fact that some of his children were fire giants, drow, and dragons that Bhaal knew about his impending demise for some time and had been busy siring offspring long before the Time of Troubles. Consider that giants, elves and dragons are among the longer-lived races and that all of the Bhaalspawn encountered during the game are mature for their race. Also, you are given the option of playing any of the standard races in creating your character, including elves and dwarves who have lifespans in the hundreds of years. If you assume that at the beginning of BG1 your character is at the end of adolescence (15-18 for humans), then a dwarf would probably be about 50 and an elf close to 80 or 90.

We can support this argument with the prophecies of Alaundo [sic] who also foresaw Bhaal's death and the Bhaalspawn wars. How long ago did Alaundo live? If a mortal knew, you would think that a god would as well. Alaundo has been dead long enough for his prophecies to be studied by Gorion, Melissan and Nyalee. In addition Sarevok made several references to "the old lore" in relation to Alaundo's prophecies.

Based on this, I come to the conclusion that Bhaal got busy a long time ago making babies that that they all happened to come into adulthood (for their particular race) at about the same time.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 10:42 am

Wasn't there a chihuahua Bhaalspawn in ToB? Dunno if divine heritage slows the aging process, but a 20-year-old chihuahua would seem rather old.

Why would Bhaal have chosen so many different races? If he could get to one Dragon, why not a couple more? Surely they have more influence on the world than, say, a chihuahua... I guess Bhaal wasn't a powergamer.

Although... he made some excellent choices in the protagonist and Sarevok. Both are very powerful and leave a mark upon their world. Despite the fact that she is portrayed as a young and in need of support, Imoen is also incredibly powerful (with the right spells she could kick Sarevok's butt any day). However, she does not share the protagonist or Sarevok's taste for bloodshed.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:20 pm

Mabye somebody fed the dog lots of Taco Bell and the preservatives in the food kept him young . . .

Despite having the divine influence of the God of Murder, for Imoen (and some of the others) it may have come down to the whole nature/nurture thing. Even in BG1, she was never one of the go-getters; she basically followed you around and did whatever the hell you wanted her to do. Plus, Bhaal only provided half of the genetic material, the other half was from the Bhaalspawn's other parent. That would affect the person's disposition and how their heritage played out.

(I had both Imoen and Aerie in my party through ToB and there was a funny exchange between the two when Aerie was asking Imoen if she ever heard the call of the slayer. Imoen replied that sometimes in the middle of the night she did, but then realised it was only a craving for cinnimon cookies.)

Bhaal may have just wanted to spread his seed around to populate the world with as many offspring as he could, and remember he didn't want them to be incredibly powerful. The whole idea of unleashing Bhaalspawn on the Realms was to serve as a way to resurrect himself after the Time of Troubles. For his priests/preistesses to bring him back, they would first have to sacrifice all of his children to regain his immortal essence, and you don't want to have to kill a dozen dragons without divine blood in them, much less a dozen Abazigals.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:21 pm

Mabye somebody fed the dog lots of Taco Bell and the preservatives in the food kept him young . . .

Despite having the divine influence of the God of Murder, for Imoen (and some of the others) it may have come down to the whole nature/nurture thing. Even in BG1, she was never one of the go-getters; she basically followed you around and did whatever the hell you wanted her to do. Plus, Bhaal only provided half of the genetic material, the other half was from the Bhaalspawn's other parent. That would affect the person's disposition and how their heritage played out.

(I had both Imoen and Aerie in my party through ToB and there was a funny exchange between the two when Aerie was asking Imoen if she ever heard the call of the slayer. Imoen replied that sometimes in the middle of the night she did, but then realised it was only a craving for cinnimon cookies.)

Bhaal may have just wanted to spread his seed around to populate the world with as many offspring as he could, and remember he didn't want them to be incredibly powerful. The whole idea of unleashing Bhaalspawn on the Realms was to serve as a way to resurrect himself after the Time of Troubles. For his priests/preistesses to bring him back, they would first have to sacrifice all of his children to regain his immortal essence, and you don't want to have to kill a dozen dragons without divine blood in them, much less a dozen Abazigals.

Armadin of Clan Geddin · Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:36 pm

Originally posted by Xyx:
Wasn't there a chihuahua Bhaalspawn in ToB? Dunno if divine heritage slows the aging process, but a 20-year-old chihuahua would seem rather old.

Chinchilla. I finded that thing in the Marchin' Mountains. I did it far over 1000 damage, an' it just wouldn't die. When I stopped, it finally ran off. That little rabbit could easily 'ave become the new Lord o' Murder, methinks.

[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: Armadin of Clan Geddin ]

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 1:10 pm

If you'd thought ahead and brought the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, he wouldn't have been any problem.

I was going to take it with me, but I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: HighLordDave ]

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 2:42 pm

Originally posted by HighLordDave:
Bhaal may have just wanted to spread his seed around to populate the world with as many offspring as he could, and remember he didn't want them to be incredibly powerful. The whole idea of unleashing Bhaalspawn on the Realms was to serve as a way to resurrect himself after the Time of Troubles. For his priests/preistesses to bring him back, they would first have to sacrifice all of his children to regain his immortal essence, and you don't want to have to kill a dozen dragons without divine blood in them, much less a dozen Abazigals.

Wasn't Sarevoks goal to become the Lord of Murder by just shedding other peoples' blood? That would certainly be easier for Dragons than chinchillas.

coolguyclay · Post by **coolguyclay** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:16 pm

I know you're not really talking about dragons anymore, but those Blue Dragons were quite tough. Glad they were too, it was fun. The Demogorgon wasn't bad at all, maybe I just got lucky.

I've been looking for that chihuahua all day and can't find him anyway. I even got a magical bone to lure him out with (from "Ye Ol' Grease Pit", of course), but he's too smart for me. Luckily, I know when to walk away . . .