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Beauty: power or weakness?

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dragon wench
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Post by dragon wench »

@Chim,
Don't let the shallow jackasses prevent you from exercising, just tell them to take a very long walk off a much shorter pier.

I don't buy into the myth that all thin people are healthier, but there are very real benefits to exercise. If you are in reasonably good shape you are, in general, less prone to heart attacks, strokes, various cancers and a host of other medical problems.
Beyond that, exercise is a fantastic stress buster, and it gives you a real boost in energy. You just feel better all round.
When I emerge from the gym, I feel high, exhilarated and totally relaxed :cool:

This whole conversation about attractiveness within society reminds me a lot of the associations surrounding wealth. Many of the same issues are present....
I know of a woman who was considered quite "homely." She ended up inheriting a sizable fortune... All of a sudden she was on everyone's social calendar, and she experienced no less than three marriage proposals in the space of six weeks. :rolleyes:
Ugh...
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Post by Phreddie »

denotation versus conotation

While the denotation of beauty certainly applies here, i believe thid thread is more a discussion on the conotations of the word in regards to a specific individual. Having said that, a view of the society is need as well to better understand the individual.
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Post by C Elegans »

[QUOTE=Fiona]In my experience the people we love become beautiful.[/QUOTE]

For some people that is indeed the case, but not for everyone. I assess beauty in humans the same regardless if I love a person or not. Beauty is an aesthetic quality to me, not a question of personality, behaviour or intelligence. For that I use other terms.

Rimsky-Korsakov was no doubt a very unpleasant person, but his music is among the most beautiful I can think of. Ligeti's music can hardly be described as beautiful, the reason I love it is for other qualities. To me, aesthetic properties in humans are no different from aesthetic properties in a landscape or a piece of art. Beauty is one aspect, and there are many other aspects. In humans, I think beauty is a relatively unimportant quality. People have always regarded the way I look as beautiful, fine, they are of course allowed to think whatever they want about my looks, but it has little importance for me what others think about the shape and colours of my face and body. Beauty in humans is only a factor for me when it comes to sex, because I am not physically attracted to men I don't find physically beautiful. I don't care much about the face, but I must find the body beautyful in order to be sexually attracted. Attractiveness however, is something else than beauty, but for me beauty as well as high intelligence and many other characteristics, all parts of attractiveness.

[quote="yrthwyndandfyre]
People who are beautiful and know it have a strong tendency to rely on that to see them through life"]

This is totally dependent on whether the beautiful person him/herself find beauty an important trait or not. I know very well that I look good. I have a lot of friends, both male and female, who are very good looking but they don't care much about it and they would never dream of relying on beauty for anything. They simply have other values, and the world actually not so superficial you get a Ph D in medicine or physics because you're a pretty bimbo.

In my experience, as many people who view themselves are smart rely on this as much as people who view themselves as pretty rely on this. In both cases, it's a question of how far you would like to reach in what areas. Being pretty and/or being smart can only give you some things in life, and those things are not necessarily very important. Happiness, fulfillment, stimulans, well-being, love and many other fundamental things in life have little correlation to beauty and "intelligence". In our society it is however easy to reach a "comfort level" by relying on being pretty or being smart, so if you desire no more than a comfortable life style with a decent amount of social acceptance, then you're fine with just being pretty or just being smart.

[quote="Athena]
I might say that beauty is weakness because people who have a negative self image feel comfortable attacking me for unnecessary reasons. [/quote"]

Beauty can be very problematic. When I was at uni, I had problems with hostile behaviour from (especially female students) who claimed that my academic success was because of my looks. This is IMO highly disrespectful since it implicated that A) I get unfair advantages B) I don't really deserve the success and C) the people who assessed my academic qualities were gulliable and unable to make fair judgements.

When I was young, I had hordes of unwanted admireres of which probably 99.99% were only interested in me because of my looks. I used to have a boyfriend who girls swooned and fought over, and he and I promised each other never to comment on each others looks, only each others "inner" qualities. That was such a relief, it's not funny to constantly get a lot of attention for all the wrong things. I used to long for growing old and ugly so I could go out and have a cup of coffee without a lot of guys trying to take contact.

Also, it's no coincidence that all my female friends are women who are very beautiful as well as highly intelligent. I think many men have no idea just how unpopular a smart and pretty girl is among other girls...now it's different because people are more mature and I am older, but before age 25 I just couldn't get any female friends who were not very pretty, no matter how nice I tried to be. It even happened that girls said to me they didn't want to go out clubbing or go to parties with me because I would get all the attention from the guys.

Now, I was still lucky because I've always been socially extrovert so my personality is kind of obvious early on in social relationships, but I had a friend who was more introvert and quite shy, and she felt that she never managed to come through the wall her beauty created between her and every man she met. She often felt very alone and isolated because everybody just viewed her as a pretty doll. Just like me she quit using make-up and dressed down like a potato sack in social contexts, but just as for me and many other friends I had - it actually made no difference. If you look beautiful you sort of look beautiful regardless of clothes and styling products.

In any case, this is the background to why I think it's most advantageous to look average.
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Post by dragon wench »

[QUOTE=C Elegans]Beauty can be very problematic. When I was at uni, I had problems with hostile behaviour from (especially female students) who claimed that my academic success was because of my looks. This is IMO highly disrespectful since it implicated that A) I get unfair advantages B) I don't really deserve the success and C) the people who assessed my academic qualities were gulliable and unable to make fair judgements. [/QUOTE]

Argh... I experienced that. Did you ever have people insinuate that you slept with the profs in order to achieve high grades? That happened to me on a couple of occasions; I'm not sure I have ever been quite so angry. Each time it was a male grad student, and each time I had obtained a better grade in a paper. It usually upset the guys when I bested them in seminar debates as well. :rolleyes:

Funny.... usually nobody questions how men can be both intelligent and attractive.... :rolleyes:
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Post by Phreddie »

that is strange, most people associate our intelligence with square horn rimmed glasses books on advanced sciences and no social life, atleast thats one stereotype
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Post by Fiona »

*takes man's horn rimmed glasses off* Why Mr Smith......you're beautiful... :rolleyes:
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Post by yrthwyndandfyre »

[QUOTE=Athena]and you, my friend, are a relic.[/QUOTE]
The point, Goddess, would be were they actually mean to you, or did they simply fail to treat you with the abject obeisance that you have become accustomed to? There is a difference, you know. For me, "being mean" means getting kicked into the ditch and stomped on by three or four opponents at once. It means being hit on the back of the head with a chair and cold-conked. It means being pinned against a wall by two or three people and mauled by another for 20 minutes. It typically means a situation that involves at least a short period of hospitalization and recuperation.

What means "being mean" to you? Somebody gave you the cold shoulder? They were abrupt, or maybe even curt? Somebody sneered at you? Let's establish a frame of reference, shall we?
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Post by Chimaera182 »

lol @ Fiona

Yeah, we stereotypically-group smart guys in the nerd section. I hate to admit it, but I used to hate the jocks in school who got good grades; I always inferred that the only reason they got good grades was because they were given to them and they didn't earn them. There were a couple that I personally knew were actually smart, but the majority of them I always automatically assumed didn't earn their grades. And I did know good-looking girls who got good grades, but I didn't think anything of it.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]@Chim,
Don't let the shallow jackasses prevent you from exercising, just tell them to take a very long walk off a much shorter pier.[/QUOTE]
I think you're missing my point. If I'm alone now, all the shallow ones wouldn't give me an iota of attention. If I got in shape, suddenly, they would pay me a lot of attention. So I just don't have the incentive to get in shape.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]I know of a woman who was considered quite "homely." She ended up inheriting a sizable fortune... All of a sudden she was on everyone's social calendar, and she experienced no less than three marriage proposals in the space of six weeks. :rolleyes:
Ugh...[/QUOTE]
That's just greed; men hoping to take advantage of a woman's newfound wealth. They're not attracted to her, just the money.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]Argh... I experienced that. Did you ever have people insinuate that you slept with the profs in order to achieve high grades? That happened to me on a couple of occasions; I'm not sure I have ever been quite so angry.
Funny.... usually nobody questions how men can be both intelligent and attractive.... :rolleyes: [/QUOTE]
I have. :p
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Post by fable »

[QUOTE=Phreddie]isnt this a thread on wether or not beauty is a power or a weakness, not about what happens to turn one on? honestly i could live happily with out hearing that from several people.[/QUOTE]

If you had problems understanding the rest of my comments, including the following:

In short, physical attractiveness is largely in the mind, leaving aside the issue of general physical and mental health. It's conditioned in large part by one's upbringing, family, peers, commercial advertising, entertainment, environment. But it's always possible to resist the programming, and to make up one's own mind. Most people just don't realize it's happening to themselves, or care.

...which deals with what constitutes "beauty," and how to control whatever power such a concept might have, please let me know the portion that confuses you. ;)
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Post by Phreddie »

It wasn't confusing, I personally thought the last comment was a little beyond this thread... if that conveys the message i wanted to send, and i do believe it doesnt...
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Post by dragon wench »

[QUOTE=Phreddie]It wasn't confusing, I personally thought the last comment was a little beyond this thread... if that conveys the message I wanted to send, and I do believe it doesn't...[/QUOTE]

IMO, Fable's comment was quite natural within the scope of this thread.
If you hang around here long enough you'll see that conversations can take any number of twists and turns, and as long as those directions are not completely irrelevant (i.e meaningless spam), they are well accepted.
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Post by Phreddie »

I see your point, i have seen some threads that truly are disturbing to one who is looking in on the outside, this place can get somewhat... different, than say... earth.
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Post by C Elegans »

dragon wench wrote:Argh... I experienced that. Did you ever have people insinuate that you slept with the profs in order to achieve high grades? That happened to me on a couple of occasions; I'm not sure I have ever been quite so angry.
No, that never happened to me, it was just blatant comments about how much the teachers favoured me because of my looks and also, when I got a very desirable internship, some students said it was because the supervisor was male and liked my looks.

All of this was just during my basic education and when I started working at the lab where I still work (I started when I was still a student).
It usually upset the guys when I bested them in seminar debates as well. :rolleyes:
It's interesting that it was the guys who got upset in your case, in my case it's always been women who get upset and attribute things to my looks. I've never had this type of critisism and personal attacks from men.
Phredde] that is strange wrote:
I'm not familiar with that stereotype, where I live the stereotype you describe is a stereotype for a nerd, not for an intelligent person. The general view of nerds here is not that they are very intelligent, nerdiness is more connected to asocial behaviour and narrow interests. Something I have noticed as a stereotype though is that some people seem to put physical beauty and intelligence as polarised.

Where I live, I think the stereotype of an intelligent person is more related to high verbal skill, being serious and having a humble attitude.
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Post by dragon wench »

[QUOTE=C Elegans]It's interesting that it was the guys who got upset in your case, in my case it's always been women who get upset and attribute things to my looks. I've never had this type of critisism and personal attacks from men. [/QUOTE]

Interestingly enough, this is the only type of situation where I have had this kind of clash with guys. It might be cultural.... or it could be some kind of competitive element related to the small number of first class marks that are handed out in grad school. Or maybe it is a combination of the two; I don't know.

In any other circumstances I've always gotten along much better with men than with women for some reason.
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Post by Hill-Shatar »

[QUOTE=dragon wench]Funny.... usually nobody questions how men can be both intelligent and attractive.... :rolleyes: [/QUOTE]

Immunology finals and a 30 year old teaching assistant. :rolleyes: Guys get it to, it's just not as pronounced as when girls are accused, and they tend to talk to their friends about it and make a huge issue of the subject.

I typically let it drop.

Anyways, I do not have the energy to read through the entire thread... I am sure there is some interesting reading, but many times it appears overly elaborate in the ways of saying what you mean.

Humans define beauty as a woman who appears aesthetically pleasing or interesting above others. Instincts have lead us to search for the best mate. A woman may go for the strongest male they can find, but afterwords they will search for the most stable and most capable to provide. Men look for woman with certain pronounced areas, yet not overly pronounced, as this shows they are healthy and ready to bear children. Also, mating habits such as this cause certain smells, etc, to be interesting to some people with certain personalities and genetic structures, while revolt another.

Pretty much, the outside body does not mean overly much. However, it does effect how you may think of a person in day to day life. A person wearing glasses may not be noticed as much, or may fall into a specific category that we try not to use. Meanwhile, a brunette who I find appealing may find my interest, and no matter what she does, my brain will try to find a way to make it sound friendly. This is all hypothetical... I don't actually do so, but sometimes, our brain will do that all on its own.

Personally, beauty is something about being able to maintain yourself, to hold yourself in a way to show that you are not going to take whatever the world throws at you willingly. I do not really care about physical beauty; the majority of what you are seeing is carefully manicured. With todays use of plastic surgery and cosmetics going up, such things count for less and less daily. Someone who may have looked healthy before, may have just had cosmetic surgery done of their teeth to make them whiter.

If a person can see something and express it in themselves without turning for surgery, then they have my utmost respect. If they can decide to focus more on mental activities instead of constantly moving their hair around to make the perfect flip, etc, then they have my constant respect. If a person decides that they would rather skip a class in high school because they have good looks and hot friends, does not gain my respect. If she decides that getting her hair done is more important than work, then she does not have my respect.

If a person tries to make her life fulfilling, and has that glow about them? That is beauty.

My two cents, anyways.

[QUOTE=C Elegans]I'm not familiar with that stereotype, where I live the stereotype you describe is a stereotype for a nerd, not for an intelligent person. The general view of nerds here is not that they are very intelligent, nerdiness is more connected to asocial behaviour and narrow interests. Something I have noticed as a stereotype though is that some people seem to put physical beauty and intelligence as polarised. [/QUOTE]

Same here. However, nerds are more considered as... people who spend more time with work, then they do with other people around. Locked in a room, studying books, instead of leadiong a healthy social life.

If I fell into a stereotype by looks, people would not assosiate me with science. Also, after seeing C Elegans (also, I would not put her in science if looks meant what line of work we would go into) and Dragon Wench's (wouldn't place her in her line of work either) pictures, they are pretty much the same.

Intelligence may be desirable, but it will not replace looks alone, nor will looks replace intelligence. I think you need a good dose of both to be beautiful, myself. Or I could be sucking up to the ladies in here... :p
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Post by Xandax »

[QUOTE=C Elegans]<snip>
I'm not familiar with that stereotype, where I live the stereotype you describe is a stereotype for a nerd, not for an intelligent person. The general view of nerds here is not that they are very intelligent, nerdiness is more connected to asocial behaviour and narrow interests. Something I have noticed as a stereotype though is that some people seem to put physical beauty and intelligence as polarised.

Where I live, I think the stereotype of an intelligent person is more related to high verbal skill, being serious and having a humble attitude.[/QUOTE]

The scandinavian word for "nerd" (directly translated) would most often meaningwise roughly translate more into a "geek" or perhaps better yet - a "dork". Thus fitting the "sterotype" mentioned in the quote.
But we (Denmark, at least) generally only have 1 word to cover the three meanings :D
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Post by C Elegans »

[QUOTE=Hill-Shatar]Also, after seeing C Elegans (also, I would not put her in science if looks meant what line of work we would go into) [/QUOTE]

Most new people I meet outside of the scientific field, believe I work in media for some reason. That's strange since I'd rather shoot myself in the foot than work in the media world.

[quote="Xandax]
The scandinavian word for "]

Yes, we also have only one word in Swedish. "Geek" would probably be the closest translation to that word. According to the stereotype, the geek may be more or less smart, that's not so important, but what is typical for the geek is the narrow range of interests and lack of social skills and social relations. A certain degree of immatureness is usually attributed to the geek as well, the prototype geek is a teenage boy with acne and overweight.
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Post by Athena »

wordrefrence.com

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]were they actually mean to you,

What means "being mean" to you? Somebody gave you the cold shoulder? They were abrupt, or maybe even curt? Somebody sneered at you? Let's establish a frame of reference, shall we?[/QUOTE]
Ahem. The definition of mean is right here from wordrefrence.com: (in the context we are using it in)
adjective
mean, mingy, miserly, tight
used of persons or behavior; characterized by or indicative of lack of generosity; "a mean person"; "he left a miserly tip"
hateful, mean
characterized by malice; "a hateful thing to do"; "in a mean mood"
base, mean, meanspirited
having or showing an ignoble lack of honor or morality; "that liberal obedience without which your army would be a base rabble"- Edmund Burke; "taking a mean advantage"; "chok'd with ambition of the meaner sort"- Shakespeare; "something essentially vulgar
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