lightsabers-dexterity or strenght?

[androgenik]

I was rummaging trough your old posts on this subject and I found very contradicting statements. So if someone would be so kind to answer me this-
Does melee upgrade feats relate to lightsabers?
If I want a character which his main tool is a lightsaber do I go with strength or dexterity? Does strength relate do damage/to hit or does it stack up with dexterity which relates just to hit?

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=androgenik]I was rummaging trough your old posts on this subject and I found very contradicting statements. So if someone would be so kind to answer me this-
Does melee upgrade feats relate to lightsabers?
If I want a character which his main tool is a lightsaber do I go with strength or dexterity? Does strength relate do damage/to hit or does it stack up with dexterity which relates just to hit?[/QUOTE]


Depends on which feats you mean?
Combat feats like Flurry etc does, but specializing in Meele weapons does not. It is a different weapon type from Lightsabres which have its own specializing three.

I'd go with dexterity for sure instead of strenght. Because for lightsabre the higher of the two governs to-hit bonus, while dexterity also adds to defence and strenght adds to damage.
So dexterity and strenght do not stack for to-hit bonus, however strenght still governs bonus damage on hit, however that is just 1 point of damage per 2 strenght where I'd rather have the extra in Dexterity or another attribute.

I'd rarely go above 10 in strenght as base in KotoR 1 as any kind of Jedi, simply because I feel the points can be spend better otherwise. But that is naturally a personal preference. +1 to damage compared to +1 AC or +1 Wis/Cha modifier. Then I feel +1 damage comes out short in every comparison. Otherwise, you'll have to focus constantly on strenght and only strenght (again - in my view).


(@Hill - I don't recall there being finesse in Kotor 1 - I'm sure you are thinking of Kotor 2)

[KyLewin]

To add to what our two esteemed moderators have already said, you should go with Dex. Not only does it improve your defense and what not, but you can also find gloves that add something in the neighborhood of +5 (at least you can on the PC version) to strength anyway and you probably won't need your strength to be above 15-17.
I realize there are also items that add to Dex, but so far as I know, none of them give you that big of a bonus.

[sigma1932]

Ok, I guess I'm the only one who does this, but I take all strength and the lowest possible dexterity for four main reasons:

First, it's potentially possible to add 12(the equivalent of 24 dex points) to your armor class just with force powers, but at most 2 damage to your sabre.

Master Speed = +4 AC
Force Armor = +6 AC
Master Valor = +5 to all attributes, or +2 AC, +2 dmg

Second, the Jedi-sense feat line (automatic at 1st, 6th, and 12th Jedi levels, giving +2, +4, and +6 to AC respectively).

That makes a total of 18 AC with no items (or 36 points of dex).

Third, most enemies use blasters and Jedi get blaster bolt deflection automatically at 1st level, and blaster bold deflection is based on your attacking ability... which I guess could go either way, except that BBD reduces the need for as much defense.

Fourth, even Jedi Robes limit the dex bonus to +8(a limit which applies to to-hit bonuses as well as AC), so it's pointless to go past 26 dex total regardless of the means. Strength isn't limited in this way meaning every 2 points of strength over 26 will give you a 5% bonus to accuracy(based on the d20 combat mechanics) and a point of damage while dex stops getting better at 26 unless you run around in just a belt, gloves, implant, and headgear the whole time. While at least the sith jammies are kinda cool looking, I prefer to look the part of a (dark) jedi master complete with robes, thanks.

Seems kinda silly to me to jack dex up to the max when you can get defense from so many other sources, and because of that, you hardly take any hits at all to begin with, even from the melee enemies who are easily dispatched when you do 50 damage per hit from the high strength.

Which reminds me-- keep in mind that damage added from strength is applied to EVERY SWING, not just once per round, so a character with 28 strength(18 normal, 5 from levels, and 5 more using master valor), or +9 dmg, using master speed will actually do potentially 27 extra damage each round, which is like having an extra swing compared to a character with only 10 strength. Throw in master flurry and dual-wielding, and it's an extra 45 damage per round if you hit with all your swings-- and trust me... you'll be hitting. A lot.

[Xandax]

You misunderstand one important thing.
Going the "dexterity way" doesn't mean you should only focus on dexterity alone, and take it to the "max".
Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence are quite handy attributes as well, and shouldn't be forgotten for most character builds.
Both for offensive and defensive force powers, and savethrows towards force powers, grenades and so on.

I'd never take dexteirty to anywhere near 25 (i can't remember, but isn't 25 max for an attribute in KOTOR1?). 18-20 would be the maximal amount and focusing on charisma or wisdom as well.
As I said in my post, unless you go full strength, then in my view, you are (way) better off taking dexterity higher then strength.
You can go midlevel dexterity easy (due to the combined AC and To-Hit), but going midlevel strenght is in my view a waste because the damage modifier isn't terrible important.

And doing 27 damage extra per turn with master flurry due to focusing solely on strenght is not really impressive in my view, but your analyzises is also flawed.
You add for instance force powers etc to get your 26 strenght whereas you still compare it to a 10 unmodified strength, so your +5 from force powers should also be applied to the unmodified 10, giving it at least 15.
Then you can add into the equation the equipment you gain throughout your journies.
27 might seem like much, but not when you look at the overall damage in a turn. Also remember - the 27 extra damage is only appliable if your opponent can take a full master flurry swing. If he dies after - say 2 hits or something, then the full bonus isn't applied and thus wasted.

But anyways - it all comes down to personal preferences. In all the times I've played, I've never seen neither the need nor the benefit of going high strenght - not when there are so many other important attributes.

[sigma1932]

I can fully agree that wisdom and charisma shouldn't be ignored when it comes to attacking powers, and even to a small extent with lightsaber combat characters. For consular characters, I'd suggest going full wisdom rather than anything else, (except charisma at creation, because you can only go up to 18 wisdom, and cha helps with force powers and points, as well as persuasion, which only the PC uses). Guardians on the other hand, well, wisdom and charisma just aren't as important as combat attributes, but still should be a priority over intelligence, which in turn should be a priority over dex at least with the main character. I still say full strength ends up being better in the long run over half and half str/dex for lightsaber combat characters, as in the latter case, you're still working on defensive overkill, and losing offensive potential in the process.

Regardless, the original post was about lightsaber combat, and in the end, you'll have more than enough defense without the dex, with better offense in the long run.

Xandax, you misread my analysis, the 27 dmg per round is from master speed, which people would likely take anyway for travel/defense, not master flurry. Master flurry by itself would only give an extra 18 dmg as it only adds 1 swing on top of the automatic one, where master speed adds 2. While I admit I overlooked using valor with the 10 str character (which would add a total of 6 damage using master speed-- 2 per swing added), we're still looking at an overall difference of 18 damage per round more with the high strength, which in the end results in the high strength character being able to do what the low strength character can do WITHOUT taking the flurry line and instead going with power attack, critical strike, or something else.

So, given the same level, powers, and equipment, and both using one single-bladed, non-upgraded saber, this was my point when comparing the 28 str char to the 10 str char and saying the former gets in effect a free swing without spending the feat slots on flurry and two-weapon fighting:

Character with 10 STR(level points spent elsewhere), using master speed and master valor:
3 x 2d8+2 (valor) = 12-54 dmg, 33 damage average per round, 11 average per swing

Character with 23 STR(counting level points), using master speed and master valor:
3 x (2d8+3 (valor adding 5 to odd strength) + 6 (raw strength)) = 33-75 dmg, 54 damage per round, 18 damage per swing.

If you look at the difference in damage per round(54-33), and compare it to how much damage can be expected with the low strength, we come up with a difference of about 21 damage, or just a hair under TWO more swings than the low strength character.

So, commiting fully to raw strength will yield effectively the same damage with fewer swings, and the option to replace master flurry with something else.

Even if we cheat a little with the 10 str char and have him dual-wield using master flurry, the 23 str still does better in the long run as far as lightsaber combat goes:

Character with 10 STR(level points spent elsewhere), using master speed, master valor, master flurry, and dual-wielding:
5 swings(1 main hand, 1 offhand, 1 flurry, 2 master speed) x 2d8+2 (valor) = 20-75 dmg, 47.5 damage average per round, 9.5 average per swing.

(copied from above)
Character with 23 STR(counting level points), using master speed and master valor:
3 x (2d8+3 (valor adding 5 to odd strength) + 6 (raw strength)) = 33-75 dmg, 54 damage per round, 18 damage per swing.

Keep in mind though, that taking master flurry and master two-weapon fighting wastes 6 slots that you'd have if you cranked up the strength instead, which could be better spent somewhere else. If you're that hell-bent on getting the extra AC that you really don't need, maybe take dueling so you can have the best of both worlds, getting the +3 AC without spending attribute points on dex, plus an extra +3 to-hit bonus that you wouldn't have otherwise, while keeping the high-damage.

But ok, so you don't want to go full strength. That's fine too, becaue if you go half strength (by this I mean halfway between 10 and 23, or 17 so using valor makes it come out even), you'll still do a swing better than with only 10:

Character with 17 STR, using master speed and master valor:
3 x (2d8+3 (valor adding 5 to odd strength) + 3 (raw strength)) = 24-66 dmg, 45 damage per round, 15 damage per swing.

(copied from above)
Character with 10 STR(level points spent elsewhere), using master speed and master valor:
3 x 2d8+2 (valor) = 12-54 dmg, 33 damage average per round, 11 average per swing

Again compare the difference between the average per round (12) and the average for the lower strength, and you get a full swing, which means you could go without either the two-weapon line or the flurry line, freeing up 3 slots for something else, while still maintaining the same damage output.

If you do this though, note that you're better off putting the points you don't put in strength in wisdom or charisma rather than dexterity because they'll give you more force points (which you'll be thankful for if you're a guardian) and will help make your powers less resistable if you're a consular. The 2-3 points you gain in AC by putting 4-6 points in dex aren't going to help as much as you think-- I'd even consider putting them in intelligence to get extra skill point per level rather than dex.

In the games I've played, and I'll admit I was skeptical myself the first time someont told me "raising Dexterity is pointless", but after I looked into it myself, I don't see how raising dex at all can be more beneficial than raising any of the other stats.

You know, you don't even have to take my word for it. Try making a character and go full strength, then the rest in wis, int, or cha, with only 8 or 10 dex, put AC at the bottom of the priority list while running through the game, and see how it goes. You might be surprised at how things turn out-- I sure was.

[yoyopogo104]

AHHHHHHHHH! haha, jk...

talk about an analysis, gees...ok, so would somebody clear this up 4 me and make it simple? here's what i'm getting out of all this: when using a single saber its more beneficial to stock up on strength, and when using 2 sabers/double bladed its more beneficial to stock up on dex. no?

[sigma1932]

Hehe, I hear ya there, I get a little long winded sometimes.

Anyhow, my main point was that since you already have more than enough defense with minimum Dexterity, and you get the same to-hit bonuses from Dexterity as you do from Strength, I'd go for the added damage gained from raising strength. As far as strength and dexterity go, it doesn't matter what type of lightsaber you're using-- short, single, or double-- they're all affected the same way. The only difference between single-bladed and double-bladed/dual-wielding sabers is the number of feats you have to take to use them effectively and how many swings you get per round.

Also remember that this isn't an MMO, as in it doesn't take weeks to level up. You can always start over if you feel severely gimped, but to be honest, you most likely won't feel that way whichever way you go unless you're purposely trying to screw up the character.

[DaveO]

Strength vs Dexterity spoiler

You'll get a maximum of +10 to dexterity thru three items in the game. You can only get +7 to strength. It's up to you to choose which is important, but in my opinion dexterity is more important for the highest difficulty. If you can't hit often, it could mean the difference between survival and defeat.

[Sarg]

I don't normally ever go above 14 as a basic for str, I just prefer to put everything into wis and dex.
It just seem's to make more sense being faster rather than relying on brute strength

[sigma1932]

Ok, first of all, if you're playing darkside, the max strength bonus is +11, lightside guardian is +10 with the mastery bonus, and it bears mentioning that a darkside guardian gets a +1d8 raw damage bonus for mastery, in addition to the +11 strength. Also, the max bonus to dex is +16. I also know there's a rule in 3E DnD rules (which are similar to the PnP Star Wars game that KotOR is based on) that says you can't go more than +10 in enhancements over the raw base of any attribute, but I'm not sure if that applies to KotOR. Regardless, it doesn't matter, because while that +3 to-hit bonus from the extra 3 raw dex may be helpful at first, the raw damage starts to overtake that because that +3 to-hit becomes less significant as your BAB starts going up, the extra damage will still be better in the endgame.

Example: Going by the un-rule-hindered maxes of +11/+16 str/dex bonuses, respectively, the numbers work out like the following on extreme strength and dexterity heavy builds each using one single-bladed saber, master speed, and master valor:

Char 1(dexterity heavy):
18(base) + 5(lvl) + 5(valor) + 16(item) = 44 dex(+17 bonus)
10(base) + 5(valor) = 15 str(+2 bonus)

3 x 2d8 + 2 = 12-54, 33 avg dmg/round, 11 avg dmg/swing

Char 2(strength heavy):
18(base) + 5(lvl) + 5(valor) + 11(item) = 39 str(+14 bonus)
10(base) + 5(valor) = 15 dex(+2 bonus)

3 x 2d8 + 14 = 48-90, 66 avg dmg/round, 22 avg dmg/swing

That means the strength heavy build can manage the same damage while hitting 1 time for every 2 the dex heavy build does with a basic one-handed lightsaber. While this ratio will eventually drop some as you add crystals to your lightsaber, it won't drop so much that the endgame 5-15% increase in accuracy due to the +3 to-hit bonus on the dex-heavy build will make as much of a difference.

If there is an enhancement limit rule and both can only add +10 over the natural base, then all numbers more or less stay the same except that the dex-heavy character loses the to-hit advantage, making the str-heavy build the better choice. Also, pending whether or not it was implemented into the game, there's also the question of the +8 max dex bonus from wearing jedi robes.

I'm sure someone will point this out, so I'll bring it up now. How much of a bonus you get for each is just as important as WHEN you get that bonus. For those who don't know it, +4 of that +11 for strength darksiders get isn't available until practically the end of the game (though dark guardians can get their mastery damage bonus as early as immediately after leaving taris, or shortly thereafter), and it takes considerably longer to get the +3 mastery bonus for lightside guardians. At the same time, the items that give +9 of that +16 dexterity aren't available until after you've completed about 70-75% of the main quest(leaving +7 before then), whereas items that give +6 str are available after only completing about 25-30% of the main quest (there's another item that comes available at the same time as the late dex items that gives the extra point of strength). Furthermore, you have to buy all three items that give the +7 dex, but only one of the two that give the +6, the other is given as a reward, so cash flow might be an issue at first.

Anyhow, considering that the character I'm playing right now is just about to leave Taris, and he's already got +11 BAB with 20 str (he's level 5 with 18 base str, +1 str from level 4, +1 str from an item, and +2 BAB from his weapon), I think it's safe to say that by the time I'm through 70% of the game and those extra dexterity increasing items come available, my BAB will be in the lower to mid 20's and a +3 to-hit bonus will be negligible compared to being able to do an extra swing's worth of damage per round without having to spend extra feat slots to do it.

The last issue is that light-side sentinels/consulars don't get the darkside robes, a +3 strength mastery bonus, or the 1d8 damage mastery bonus. My question for them would be why they're screwing around with a lightsaber in the first place. They should be concentrating on force combat instead, in which case they'd be looking for wisdom/FP-regen first rather than strength OR dexterity. Regardless, unless the +10 max enhancement rule was implemented into KotOR, then yes, ok, they're better off with dexterity, or maybe a combination of items that give +12 dex and +5 str...

Someone else can do that math though, I have a headache .

[DaveO]

I have to agree that use of Force powers is far more important on the Difficult setting. That was part of the reason I restarted, since Normal seemed too easy. There were a few challenging encounters, but nothing completely frustrating. It does matter to some extent how much damage you can deal with the lightsaber, but in my minor opinion you are better off on offense using Force powers rather than melee skills.

[sigma1932]

Yeah, force powers rock. I felt like I could do a whole lot more with my dark consular than with my dark guardian as well, but the original poster was asking for advice on a lightsaber-focused build.

[fable]

[QUOTE=sigma1932]Yeah, force powers rock. I felt like I could do a whole lot more with my dark consular than with my dark guardian as well, but the original poster was asking for advice on a lightsaber-focused build.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. So let's stay focused on that question, or start a new thread to discuss anything else.

[DaveO]

I'd forgotten about the light side bonus for Guardians. And don't forget that maximized Valor gives another +5 benefit. I do believe that for each +2 you have on Dexterity, you get +1 to hit and +1 to defense. I could be wrong, but Strength provides +1 to damage and +1 to hit. I think the main focus is on lightsaber vs melee weapons. Quite honestly, I was not using a double bladed saber until the end. This is one melee weapon at the very end that rivals the power of a single bladed saber. I suppose it all really comes down to how much the poster expects to be using the lightsaber. If it's almost all the time, then I put my vote on dexterity.

[MalaksBane]

Many force powers can not be used while wearing armor and this means that you'll probably be using robes and dexterity for your defense. If the force powers you use are not constrained by wearing armour, you could go the strength way, otherwise, dexterity is probably the best way.

As to the damage difference, a strength focussed build could get +2 to +3 damage from pure stats, plus another +6 or so from items. Compared to the approximately 25 average damage of a (fully upgraded) lightsaber the +10 extra a strength build may gain is noticable, but not overwhelming.

Keep in mind that with both types builds can boost stats with stimulants as well, giving a nice temporary boost to either (or both) stats. A dex build can easily up strength to around 20, further reducing the damage advantage of a strength based build.

The Master Speed power, which adds two attacks(!) and +4 AC, iIrc, can not be used when wearing armor. This is a big disadvantage for the strength build, since it's nearly impossible to compensate the extra damage from those two attacks by any amount of strength.

On a side note, the dex limit on armor never applies to the attack bonus (AB). The +8 limit of robes should apply to AC, but it doesn't.

[DaveO]

I think the whole point of asking the question in the first place is where to put emphasis on a character build. I believe the most appropriate reply is based on what you want more from the game: Damage in combat or force powers. There are some builds that would benefit from strength and others from dexterity. A melee heavy build would emphasize strength, and I can think of some feats that would work well. Don't forget that you start the game with at least one combat related skill. I prefer to not waste feats unless I feel a default feat won't work well for my character, so the emphasis for me is to determine what my character focus is and proceed from that point. You could always have even strength and dexterity, and decide later.