Bioware's decisions Good or Bad

[TonyMontana1638]

[QUOTE=FireLighter]Well, Viconia was raised in the underdark and as a female of a high ranking class, she would have been at the academy for priestesses of Lloth. Thus being a cleric/warrior type person.

Aerie is more for the people who feel the need to romance a vulnerable and easily romanceable girl. She has gone through hardship and needs someone to love in order to get over her loss (wings). She relies on the PC as a guardian/protector and as a very (VERY) good friend. She is sad by the loss of her wings and sometimes that sadness is represented as anger at jaheira for being a "selfish harpy". If you have jaheira and aerie in the party, the romance takes a turn and eventually you will have to choose because aerie confronts jaheira about her affection for you (can you say cat fight? ). She likely became a cleric because of the fact that with her loss she could have felt that if she possesed the ability she could have restored her wings and now wanders the land (in your party) to heal those who are in need.[/QUOTE]


Exactly, couldn't agree more with you on both accounts Fire. Conclusion? The fact that they're all clerics is a mere coincidence.

[QUOTE=Raven_Song]I always found the idea of romancing Jaheira rather "icky" given that her role original role was of guardian and she came to be something of an aunt or older sister type-figure. Also the seeming speed with which she seems to get over Khalid is rather unsettling.[/QUOTE]

This has been argued before, but I disagree that romancing Jaheira is icky. She was the first romance I ever did and I never felt that weird about it; her role in the previous game as a guardian never, IMO, made her seem like an aunt figure or big-sister. She always seemed to me to be a just a bit more worldly than the protagonist. Occasionally she'd chastise him like a child, but, as a whole, she never seemed that much older than him/her; just more experienced (which isn't saying alot considering the protagonist had lived in a monastery his whole life). I'd agree with you if Bioware made her look like a grandma or something, but (being an elf), she always looked youthful (and, though I'm loathe to admit it, fairly attractive too) and never gave me the impression you got. As for her getting over Khalid rather quickly, her romance is really fricking long and there is very little romance (just kind words) until rather late in the game. Once again, just my opinion but I never found her that "icky", as a whole.

[FireLighter]

[QUOTE=TonyMontana1638]Exactly, couldn't agree more with you on both accounts Fire. Conclusion? The fact that they're all clerics is a mere coincidence.



This has been argued before, but I disagree that romancing Jaheira is icky. She was the first romance I ever did and I never felt that weird about it; her role in the previous game as a guardian never, IMO, made her seem like an aunt figure or big-sister. She always seemed to me to be a just a bit more worldly than the protagonist. Occasionally she'd chastise him like a child, but, as a whole, she never seemed that much older than him/her; just more experienced (which isn't saying alot considering the protagonist had lived in a monastery his whole life). I'd agree with you if Bioware made her look like a grandma or something, but (being an elf), she always looked youthful (and, though I'm loathe to admit it, fairly attractive too) and never gave me the impression you got. As for her getting over Khalid rather quickly, her romance is really fricking long and there is very little romance (just kind words) until rather late in the game. Once again, just my opinion but I never found her that "icky", as a whole.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the fact that they all are clerics is a coincidence

I am currently romancing Jaheira and yes, I agree she is beautiful. And Im not sure what they are talking about her getting over Khalid quickly. In her dreams, he is basically telling her that he wants her to move on and be happy in life so you cant hold that against her. Also, how is it she get over Khalid fast when it is the longest romance in the game? And most of the beginning (all of the beginning basically) is just kind words like Tony said.

So, yes the romance is long, but thats what I like about it, I dont want some whore to just walk in and feel there is no real commitment (Viconia comes to mind, I always did hate her although I like the fact that shes a drow, which is why I kicked myself when using EoU as I wanted the drow avatars ) Not just that, with the belt of Hill giant strength (which she is using in my game) she not only can take damage with her -8 ac, but dish it out as well with a vengeance. She said "With Vengeance" when she got the 36 damage critical hit that killed firkraag.

(Ranting mode begins)
And what is it with Firkraag if he hates the harpers so much, that when jaheira is in the party he doesn't even care that she is a harper. He claims to have had spies on the party since candlekeep and he should know about all of their history so why not say anything about it.

(Holy crap, this is the longest post I have written)

[Raven_Song]

The fact that they're all clerics is a mere coincidence.

And Anomen?

First of all, we've all had to rise her 513 times from the dead, something that should be impossible to do with children of Bhaal. They were bread to be fuel, nothing more.

Perhaps that's why I can't identify with the character after sending her off alone to face that bear with nothing more than a butter knife I never bothered to raise her (*smacks forehead* D'oh) Yes she does die far too frequently for a child of bhaal

A new Bhaal-child character could have begun BG2 (replacing Imoen in the starting scene) by forcing you to take a geas if he/she was to open the cells. Such a geas could then force the team to spellhold regardless of what you might think of the new NPC. Then again, why would Irenicus trust that you would come and save your sibling unless he knew about it?

Ooh I like it, its so manipulative!

She always seemed to me to be a just a bit more worldly than the protagonist. Occasionally she'd chastise him like a child, but, as a whole, she never seemed that much older than him/her; just more experienced (which isn't saying alot considering the protagonist had lived in a monastery his whole life).

See to me the protagonist/Imoen always seemed like they were late teens/early twenties whereas Jaheira/Khalid I'd put in their thirties.

she always looked youthful (and, though I'm loathe to admit it, fairly attractive too)

Original portarit yes, Bg2 portrait absolutely hideous! The only female portrait less attractive is the rich-junky-bag-lady (Nalia)

[TonyMontana1638]

Check my above post for my thoughts on Anomen, but to express them quickly the fact that he's a cleric is easily explainable by his story: wants to become a paladin, isn't one yet so it's a natural choice to make his class a fighter/cleric. Essentially, a paladin is (once again, as I said above) a fighter with healing powers so they start him off as a fighter/cleric and, if you follow his story, he morphs into a paladin of sorts. The fact that he's romanceable fits with his story well enough, as he's short on self-confidence and would be vulnerable enough for darn near any female to get close to. Personally, I like Valygar as a romance option better but that's not how Bioware did it: oh well.

[koz-ivan]

why are all the romanceable npc's clerics?

that's not a coincidence - it's a soft force a way for the designers to make us as players choose certain npc's.

here's why...

a. clerics are pretty much required in this and other dnd games, after all they are healers and pre 3e they weren't so hot at much else.

b. while clerics are needed it isn't vital to have many of them at once - so a possible romance conflict won't drive too many pieces out of the party at once. also can make for an "interesting" return from the ud if you rely on a lot of turn undead from a loved one.

c. back to the relative weakness of the cleric class - each of the would be sutors has some additional trick - jaheria & anomen have fighting sklills, aerie's mage abilities, viconia's drow heritage wisdom and magic resistance. each in their own right can do more then the standard cleric.

d. consider yoshimo - his unique status as only single class thief makes him perfect for the role he plays in the plotline. he is cool b/c the designers want him to be there but don't want to look like they are forcing a player to take him. The clerics are the same way - we the player should want them in the party.

e. if there were non cleric npc's it's possible that some parties would never contain a "love interest" and that's not what bio would want considering the effort to craft romances in the first place. (while true some races don't have love interests that may be more a result of plausability then much else)

--

as a side note consider haerdalis as possible love intrest (for female npc's) it's entirely possible bio could of written a great script / plot for him, and it would of been awsomely voice acted, (hey it's the guy from the diamond commericals) and many players wouldn't use him b/c they don't need a bard. - but (almost) every party is gonna need a cleric or druid.

[koz-ivan]

re: imoen.

again the direction bio took her in wasn't going to please everyone, however bio was pretty smart on this one.

a. her levels are a reflection of how a lot of people were playing her in bg1.

b. dual to wizard makes a lot of sense considering she was raised by giorion.

c. she has "enough" thief skills to handle just about anything in soa, and tob for that matter, her mage skills complement that, as a result she's one of the more useful npc's even if her level lags a bit behind nalia, edwin or pc mages.

[Raven_Song]

I like Valygar as a romance option better but that's not how Bioware did it: oh well.

as a side note consider haerdalis as possible love intrest (for female npc's) it's entirely possible bio could of written a great script / plot for him, and it would of been awsomely voice acted,

I believe mods are in production for both (Haer'Dalis at g3, I think the Valygar romance is part of the tortured souls mod at blackwyrm but thew sites down so I can't check this)

consider yoshimo - his unique status as only single class thief makes him perfect for the role he plays in the plotline. he is cool b/c the designers want him to be there but don't want to look like they are forcing a player to take him.

Actually the fact that he is a single class thief generally makes me avoid him like the plague, I'd rather take Jan or play a thief multi/dual class myself

e. if there were non cleric npc's it's possible that some parties would never contain a "love interest" and that's not what bio would want considering the effort to craft romances in the first place. (while true some races don't have love interests that may be more a result of plausability then much else)

But if you want to play a cleric/druid yourself, you wouldn't necessarily need another healer, as the game provides ample enough potions to make it possible to survive with only one.

[koz-ivan]

I believe mods are in production for both (Haer'Dalis at g3, I think the Valygar romance is part of the tortured souls mod at blackwyrm but thew sites down so I can't check this)

that's fine, doesn't impact the decision made in the first place, otoh one could point out that bg2 has had a great mod community for years now, and they still haven't completed these mods?

anyway this is more about timing - sooner or later somone at bio had to make the call to keep the project (bg2) moving forward or continue to tinker w/ various romances ect. considering the gamer market is male centric, it's easy to see someone choosing not to continue to spend resources and time on alternate romance scripts - esp considering they wouldn't appeal to most of their audience.

Actually the fact that he is a single class thief generally makes me avoid him like the plague, I'd rather take Jan or play a thief multi/dual class myself

from everything i've seen - that's a minority position. jan is a very good trap and lock thief, and a good backup mage - but he lacks yosi's backstab and is slower to develop as a thief, and has a turnip fetish. either way it's a valid decision. i tend to avoid him b/c i know where that story goes. but my first time through, yoshimo was one of my fave npcs.

But if you want to play a cleric/druid yourself, you wouldn't necessarily need another healer, as the game provides ample enough potions to make it possible to survive with only one.

entirely possible even considering the relative unpopularity of divine casters. which is why all the romance option clerics (and druid) have that backup ability - ano & Jah's ftr levels, aerie's mage, viconia's drow. makeing them good 2nd string healers and utility players. also worth noting that a pc druid still can't raise dead - which all the romanceable npcs can.

otoh consider valygar or haerdalis they very rarely find a way into one of my parties long enough to even trigger a romance conversation. (i just don't consider them useful enough when compared to the npc they would be replacing) again it's gut instinct and a lot of reading the boards here there and everywhere but valygar and haerdalis are underused npcs.

as a tank valygar is completely replaceable, minsc, keldorn, mazzy, korgan, jaheria and anomen all provide a suitable replacement, otoh valgar can also replace minsc, mazzy or korgan w/o giving up too much.

haerdalis is fairly unique both in backstory and statwise, and sooner or later i'll have to build a party he fits into. but unless he's really micro managed, there are better mages, or better fighters, or better rogues.

[Raven_Song]

but he lacks yosi's backstab and is slower to develop as a thief, and has a turnip fetish.

But if you want a thief specifically for backstabbing you are far better creating either a PC assassin or a dual kensai/fighter. Yoshi's thieving abilties are oddly distributed: he has only 55 in Hide in Shadows and I think he is the worst thief at opening locks (worse than Nalia), and I think his set traps ability is really poor for a bounty hunter (I might be wrong with this as I rarely use this skill) As a Bounty Hunter he only gains 20 skill points per level, which you'd probably want to invest in open Locks if he is your only thief. You could have a mage take knock, but there are more useful level 2 spells. That means you'd have to wait at least 3 levels for him to be easily able to pull of a backstab, but there is little he can do in the meantime.

which is why all the romance option clerics (and druid) have that backup ability - ano & Jah's ftr levels, aerie's mage, viconia's drow. makeing them good 2nd string healers and utility players. also worth noting that a pc druid still can't raise dead - which all the romanceable npcs can.

OK I'll agree with you on the druid not being able to raise and Anomen as a heaer support/tank player (If I were playing a druid I'd take Anomen too) but

Viconia - while the drow magic resistance is nice it doesn't change to the fact she is still only a cleric, she can't do a lot beside heal/summon, armed with a sling she's an average ranged support, as a tank she's pretty much dead.

Jaheira - Only becomes useful as a back up tank when she reaches high enough levels to cast Iron Skin, which takes time since she's multi-class. I use Divine Remix mod so as a druid she's also restricted to non-metallic armours. Where as Anomen can actually hold his own even without magic, I'm still not convinced Jaheira can. And if you consider that if her healing abilities are not essential there are much better support warriors that add other dimensions to a group, Valygar (self-buffing scout/back-stab) Mazzy (ranged support, self-buffing abilities)

Aerie - As a back-up mage hmm, same problem as Jaheira, in that she takes longer to level up, which while not a problem in the long run (especially if you have TOB), isn't so good at the beginning, especially with her less than average constitution. Unless people are really into caster-heavy parties Imoen seems to be the most popular choice for back-up mage.

The argument that every party needs a cleric while valid is equally applicable to Fighter/Tank type and Mage yet these classes are not represented romantically. OK I'm willing to take Anomen for the fighter, Jaheira no she's a druid foremost, and who really thinks of Aerie as their first choice of mage (above Edwin, Imoen, Nalia)

haerdalis is fairly unique both in backstory and statwise, and sooner or later i'll have to build a party he fits into. but unless he's really micro managed, there are better mages, or better fighters, or better rogues.

I'll give you that one! I tend to play as either a bard, thief or ranger so have yet to actually find a niche for him either.

[koz-ivan]

good stuff.

yoshimo - of the npc's he's the best backstabber, yes a pc thief will be better than him. otoh he will level very quickly and is quite capable, starting proff's in katana (cel. fury) and bow (tugian) make him quite capable once he gains a few levels. if i plan to use a dual that includes some thief he is a good bridge while the pc is either building their primary non thief class or regaining their thief skills as they advance in the 2nd.

anomen - poor dex is only drawback, he's good in a fight, has enough cleric spells to fall back on can use the flail of ages and or the crom. he and keldorn form the backbone of most of my parties.

(there isn't much that minsc, keldorn, anomen and imoen can't do as part of the same group)

viconia - actually i agree w/ you 100% while she's a capable cleric she is only a magic resistant cleric with fairly low hit points. however she has been a very popular choice among players who aren't you or me. ;~) though she was interesting when i used a pc monk to romance her. between both innate mr's and a few key items used by the rest of the party (or timely spells) that group wasn't adversely affected by much magic.

jaheria - i think you are selling her short, in metal armour and shield she has a very low ac, resonable combat ability, hit points aren't great - but not bad. a strength boost (strength spell or item) is all she really needs. some very cool druid spells. clubs - not great weapons but a few quirky enough to be cool. end result a fighter that can heal, cast insect plague, kick in a few summons. ect. pretty good mix of abilities imho.

aerie - really selling short here - remember that she is a cleric that can use mage only items - and she's a mage that can use cleric items. put her in the robe of vecna, the similacrum helm, shield of reflection. sensate amulet... ect - and she can be extremely effective. lots of synergy w/ her. she can also use cleric spells as part of contengencies, triggers, sequencers...

other classes - yes i'm sure convincing and good romance stories could be written about most of the npc's w/ possible exceptions for korgan, cernd, jan & keldorn.Heck nalia seems as if she was supposed to romance a ftr...

- but this is where the decision comes in - they (bio) chose to focus on using the cleric / hearler role as a soft force for romance plots. this may of been a natural extension of both viconia and jaheria surviving from bg1. By focusing only on the 4 primary healer npc's bio only had to write 4 (5) romance scripts (5 counts anomen as dependent on the results of his trial)

[Raven_Song]

jaheria - i think you are selling her short, in metal armour and shield she has a very low ac, resonable combat ability, hit points aren't great - but not bad. a strength boost (strength spell or item) is all she really needs. some very cool druid spells. clubs - not great weapons but a few quirky enough to be cool. end result a fighter that can heal, cast insect plague, kick in a few summons. ect. pretty good mix of abilities imho.

OK I'll give you Jaheira, after switching from spears to scimitar/shield combo she is slightly improved as a tank.

aerie - really selling short here - remember that she is a cleric that can use mage only items - and she's a mage that can use cleric items. put her in the robe of vecna, the similacrum helm, shield of reflection. sensate amulet... ect - and she can be extremely effective. lots of synergy w/ her. she can also use cleric spells as part of contengencies, triggers, sequencers...

Perhaps she does get powerful to be honest the hassle of keeping her alive proves too much for me. I'd rather play a cleric/mage than keep having to reload/resurrect the little witch. (I must have reloaded the outside of the Shadow Temple 6 times because of her dying - in the end I shoved her under a sanctuary and made her stand in the corner so she could think about what she had done)

[Ian Kognitow]

[QUOTE=koz-ivan]
viconia - actually i agree w/ you 100% while she's a capable cleric she is >only a magic resistant cleric with fairly low hit points. however she has been a very popular choice among players who aren't you or me. ;~) though she was interesting when i used a pc monk to romance her. between both >innate mr's and a few key items used by the rest of the party (or timely spells) that group wasn't adversely affected by much magic.
***


Yes, items. Constitution belt, skin armor, balduran cloak, crom fayer. Not just magic resistant, 100% magic resistant, more hit points (if you care about that kind of thing), 25 str. Crush those mages/liches. Crush them to goo.

[Coot]

[QUOTE=Raven_Song] in the end I shoved her under a sanctuary and made her stand in the corner so she could think about what she had done)[/QUOTE]=grin=

I'm curious; how come Aerie died so much in your party? I've used her quite a few times and she can be real powerful. She's not melee material though but I'm assuming you don't use her as such.

[Raven_Song]

Aerie as melee material ... if I'm feeling particularly cruel I'll send her to face a group of beholders with a Desert Spoon of Deliciousness +5, (makes the user five times tastier than normal) but other than that no.

In the last partcular session it was early in the game, I'd rushed ahead to the Shadow Temple to rescue/recruit Mazzy. My party at that particular moment was PC Elven Stalker, Anomen and Aerie. (I was going on the old fewer party members quicker levelling plan) Every time I got to the point with the mirror, outside of the temple, Aerie would manage to get surrounded and die.

More generally I tend to have pretty bad luck with her, if there's a stray lightning bolt flying round its usually her that gets hit (or Kivan if the mod is installed), if the party is attacked by surprise she dies (sometimes with only one hit), worse if shes is attacked and survives she gets herself killed by cancelling her own sanctury (I often forget to cancel those useless custom scripts).

By the time I've reloaded several hundred times I'm fed up with her, what with her dying constantly and having Victim stamped across her forehead I can never be bothered to carry her to a point in the game that she starts to pull her own weight.

[SleeperAgent]

[QUOTE=Raven_Song]Aerie as melee material ... if I'm feeling particularly cruel I'll send her to face a group of beholders with a Desert Spoon of Deliciousness +5, (makes the user five times tastier than normal) but other than that no.

In the last partcular session it was early in the game, I'd rushed ahead to the Shadow Temple to rescue/recruit Mazzy. My party at that particular moment was PC Elven Stalker, Anomen and Aerie. (I was going on the old fewer party members quicker levelling plan) Every time I got to the point with the mirror, outside of the temple, Aerie would manage to get surrounded and die.

More generally I tend to have pretty bad luck with her, if there's a stray lightning bolt flying round its usually her that gets hit (or Kivan if the mod is installed), if the party is attacked by surprise she dies (sometimes with only one hit), worse if shes is attacked and survives she gets herself killed by cancelling her own sanctury (I often forget to cancel those useless custom scripts).

By the time I've reloaded several hundred times I'm fed up with her, what with her dying constantly and having Victim stamped across her forehead I can never be bothered to carry her to a point in the game that she starts to pull her own weight.[/QUOTE]

Well...I never had much problems with Aerie dying...but random encounters are a pain (especially because they target back row first and that's where she is). She is IMHO alright if you manage to keep her away from melee range and send her to cast spells or ping'em to death using everard's sling +5.

However, I don't really use scripts - I follow my OWN script - NONE!

Having said that, I DO think I'd rather be a cleric/mage if I wanted one - I ABSOLUTELY HATE her starting spell repetoire (I use 2-3 Magic users and I have to waste money on this wingless whelp).