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asdfjklsemi
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Post by asdfjklsemi »

This is an *extremely* complicated issue and really can only be judged with extensive knowledge of the local ecosystem. *But*, several interesting things have been said here; so I'll talk about the bits I know something about (a first for me? :) ).

In my experience, reintroductions are often sentimental and focused on predators that capture the public fancy. Sometimes the main point is simply to get public attention focused on environmental preservation. In other cases, it's an important attempt to stabilize an ecosystem.

The whole idea of urban vs. wild and human vs. nature needs to be done away with in these discussions, because it overshadows the complexities. I noticed mentions here of white-tailed deer, which are often viewed as encroaching on or forced into the modern suburbs. In fact, the deer thrive in the suburban ecosystem with big lawns, etc.; so do many other animals, like coyotes here in the states. In many cases, there are lots of animals because there are lots of people. Everything we do has major ecosystem impact like that, so it seems important to remember "the wild" is always right around us.

Beavers can definitely be "destructive" (that being a loaded term, obviously). I have personally hiked a mile-long valley that was completely deforested by beavers. It looked almost insane--almost human, frankly, in its manic nibbled destructiveness. But more to the point, beaver dams can flood people out of their homes. That's a big issue in my area, where they're talking about reintroducing trapping. I have little sympathy with such homeowners, personally, but the "destructive" issue is certainly a valid consideration. As far as the disease issue, that's a red herring for sure. We have lots of beavers around here and no health plagues. Drinking the water downstream from a beaver dam is certainly not a good idea, but that's no different from drinking any other unpurified water.
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Post by C Elegans »

I'm not knowledgable enough about the UK ecosystem to give a serious response to this question, but it general, I think it's good to reintroduce species that were native but made extinct only a short while ago (a short while being some centuries or so in terms of environmental biology).

So if the beaver was native to the UK and went extinct from pelt hunting or farmers killing them because their behaviour was viewed as "destructive".

[QUOTE=slade]As far as reintroducing them into Scotland, people are having second thoughts because they fear that the beaver might bring deadly diseases or sickness to the population..like Giardiasis that targets the immune system also known as "beaver fever"...farmers are also saying that "the beavers are a destructive pest and thats why they were hunted down 400 years ago"
Poor beavers...... :( [/QUOTE]

Giardiasis a deadly disease? Aren't you confusing Giardiasis, the parasite infection caused by the flagellar protozoa Giardia lamblia with something else here? Or maybe this is an exaggregated argument from other people, who wish to see the beaver removed from their area? In any case, it is a misinformed argument, not only a red herring but simply incorrect. Millions of people in East Europe, Asia and Africa live with Giardias. Some of my colleagues recently got it in Egypt, it causes some diarrhea and flatulence for 1-2 weeks. It's easy to treat, and in Sweden where I live it's not even recommended to treat it at all unless it gets chronical, which is quite rare.

[quote="Phreddie]
i saw people trying to destinguish between different species between countires"]

Animals don't care about human political boundaries! :eek: I am deeply impressed by this revelating insight of yours :p Seriously though, unfortunately human political boundaries have a great impact on the life of many other species, so the issue is very relevant. Differences in hunting regulations, wildlife preservation activities, habits and culture of the people living in that country etc, etc are all factors that can make a large differences for a species living in the same biotopic region.
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Post by Hill-Shatar »

[QUOTE=CE]I'm not knowledgable enough about the UK ecosystem to give a serious response to this question, but it general, I think it's good to reintroduce species that were native but made extinct only a short while ago (a short while being some centuries or so in terms of environmental biology). [/QUOTE]

To be nit picky, that is not totally true. The eco system is constantly changing. The reintroduction of a species could throw off an adaption in the line of predators and prey that keep it well balanced. Although Brittain has lost much of its original wildlife, the animals eventually adapted. Hawks now roost in medows in the parks, if there are enough trees, as smaller birds fly through there on the way to the nearest bird feeder.

The ability of these animals to adpat to alterations in the enviromental and climatic conditions and situations is surprising. What sahould have taken years of evolution in theory did not take as long, as some sort of back up type of instincts kicked in.

If they reintroduce the beaver after hunting down all the predators of it, then they could cause damage to the eco system. I am sure you all know the stories of the moths in Brittain. A while ago, in the industrial growth years of Britain, mass amounts of wood was burned. The resulting soot covered the birch trees, covering the white bark. Those moths that were white died off almost completely, as the contrast was so large the birds could pick them off. The black ones, nearly extinct, thrived, and therefore another adpation was made.

Eventually, it reversed when the widespread burning of forests was halted.

We can not tell what effects may happen. Europena micro organisms may be permeable to the Beaver Disease, therefore dying off. Or, they may block off some streams that supply some towns.

Neither of us can tell what can really happen... I know you said that, but I wanted to expand it further.

[QUOTE=CE]Giardiasis a deadly disease? Aren't you confusing Giardiasis, the parasite infection caused by the flagellar protozoa Giardia lamblia with something else here? Or maybe this is an exaggregated argument from other people, who wish to see the beaver removed from their area? In any case, it is a misinformed argument, not only a red herring but simply incorrect. Millions of people in East Europe, Asia and Africa live with Giardias. Some of my colleagues recently got it in Egypt, it causes some diarrhea and flatulence for 1-2 weeks. It's easy to treat, and in Sweden where I live it's not even recommended to treat it at all unless it gets chronical, which is quite rare. [/QUOTE]

Beaver Fever just makes you sick, however, it does have a chance to mutate and become a real pain in the butt. Plus, some people are somewhat lacking in the immune systems to deal with Beaver Fever parasitic infections.

Nothing else comes from it in multicelluar organisms. :)

[QUOTE=HS] A bah to you. One of the reasons that animals are here in Canada is because they were hunted to extinction elsewhere. Althoguh the animals do not reconize (I would not say care) human political boundaries, they still can not live in a plce where they can easily be killed.

The incapability of americans to kill things on Canadian soil halted them in their tracks, since we do not need to hunt the animals as much as other countries. Thus, they live in Canada.... but not in America. They live on our side... but no in the states. Recently those crossing the border are not killed and we are assisting in the movement of those (most of them) that do not migrate that far south naturally.

A political line if you will. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=CE]Animals don't care about human political boundaries! I am deeply impressed by this revelating insight of yours Seriously though, unfortunately human political boundaries have a great impact on the life of many other species, so the issue is very relevant. Differences in hunting regulations, wildlife preservation activities, habits and culture of the people living in that country etc, etc are all factors that can make a large differences for a species living in the same biotopic region.[/QUOTE]

Bah! Copier! ;) :D
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Post by C Elegans »

Hill-Shatar wrote:If they reintroduce the beaver after hunting down all the predators of it, then they could cause damage to the eco system. I am sure you all know the stories of the moths in Brittain.
I also know the stories of the toads in Australia, the bees in South America etc, etc...I actually assumed that the UK wildlife conservation would have studied the circumstances well enough to be sure the country would not be overflooded with beavers.
Beaver Fever just makes you sick, however, it does have a chance to mutate and become a real pain in the butt. Plus, some people are somewhat lacking in the immune systems to deal with Beaver Fever parasitic infections.
Does it become treatment resistent when it mutates? It must be quite unusual seeing that treatment is not even recommended here. Regarding people with immune system deficits, I've only heard it can become a problem for people who have HIV/AIDS, but that's not specific to Beaver fever, a lot of common infections strike these patients much harder.
Bah! Copier! ;) :D
Bah, you just said it yourself above:
I know you said that, but I wanted to expand it further.
:D
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Post by Hill-Shatar »

CE wrote:I also know the stories of the toads in Australia, the bees in South America etc, etc...I actually assumed that the UK wildlife conservation would have studied the circumstances well enough to be sure the country would not be overflooded with beavers.
You would be surprised. They may check through all the obvious variables, but there are infinite possibilites that would take forever to wade through. So, either you make a stab at it now or you never do so.

Besides, I would like to see how beavers adapted to the harsh conditions in Canada will deal with the rainy enviroment of the UK. They would probably think of it has a vacation. :D
Does it become treatment resistent when it mutates? It must be quite unusual seeing that treatment is not even recommended here. Regarding people with immune system deficits, I've only heard it can become a problem for people who have HIV/AIDS, but that's not specific to Beaver fever, a lot of common infections strike these patients much harder.
Mutations of the Beaver Fever never lead to any widespread panic. It just made a few people sicker, and a couple had to check in to the hospital for a while with bowel problems, among other things.

It is still treatable, but the best way to deal with the Beaver Fever is the same way with the flu; let it run its course, and try to get it over with as soon as possible.

Immune system and Lymphatic system deficiencies are what leads to the dangerous amounts of Beaver Fever victims. They go to the Georgian Bays, put there hands in the water, east with their hands and they may get a mild infection. What should have triggered a responce does not and they get a severe case, leading to either extreme constipation/ diaherria, vomiting, and the like.

It also carries along with it some other effects... mostly it leaves the patient dazed and confused, as if drunk. They may repeat the same question repeatedly.

In any case, it is, as you sdaid, no contained to some diseases. It is just that the parasites tend to make a home of these hosts a little easier, stay longer, and spurt out a few more kids then they should. ;)
Bah, you just said it yourself above:
Bah, I gave you credit. :D

*gasp*

Did you just use my words again... naughty, naughty... :p Here I was thinking you are a good girl. :D
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Post by Phreddie »

[QUOTE=C Elegans] Regarding people with immune system deficits, I've only heard it can become a problem for people who have HIV/AIDS, but that's not specific to Beaver fever, a lot of common infections strike these patients much harder.[/QUOTE]
It goes for all who have auto-immune diseases, I know one person who had a cold, she couldn't get out of bed for a week, it was a combination of the cold, and the medecine she takes for the aforementioned disease.
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Post by Georgi »

[QUOTE=Hill-Shatar]Besides, I would like to see how beavers adapted to the harsh conditions in Canada will deal with the rainy enviroment of the UK. They would probably think of it has a vacation. :D [/QUOTE]

It is the European beaver they reintroduced, not the North American one. Apparently the former is less destructive.

I think it's a good idea, in theory, but will it work? They actually tried to reintroduce beavers into the UK a few years ago, and it failed because they didn't breed.
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Post by Phreddie »

Sounds like pandas, has no one thought of replicating their sex-drive hormones? i tihnk ovr breeding is something that needs to be done for the first generation or so until the males have a nice selection to choose form or vice versa.
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Post by Hill-Shatar »

[QUOTE=Georgi]It is the European beaver they reintroduced, not the North American one. Apparently the former is less destructive.

I think it's a good idea, in theory, but will it work? They actually tried to reintroduce beavers into the UK a few years ago, and it failed because they didn't breed.[/QUOTE]

Bah. Your right, Gerogi. They are tagging 50 beavers from Norway to reintroduce to the UK.

Less destructive? Exactly how? They are destrcutive over here, and our population is not very dense. In a nountry such as Britain, with a more compact culture, would not the effects of even the lest destructive beaver be pronounced?

Coming back for another one of your short comebacks? I've heard a lot about you... :p
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Post by Georgi »

Hill-Shatar wrote:Bah. Your right, Gerogi. They are tagging 50 beavers from Norway to reintroduce to the UK.
Well, that is the proposed programme in Scotland, yes, but it hasn't gone ahead as yet. The six beavers that have just been introduced are in Gloucestershire, and they are Bavarian. Incidentally, they havne't actually been properly released into the wild as yet, they are in a fenced enclosure on private land.
Less destructive? Exactly how? They are destrcutive over here, and our population is not very dense. In a nountry such as Britain, with a more compact culture, would not the effects of even the lest destructive beaver be pronounced?
Don't ask me, I believe everything I read on the BBC! :p I did say "apparently". From what I can make out, it's because the European beaver builds less dams than the North American beaver, preferring to live in burrows, so less deforestation and also less likelihood of causing floods. The beaver has been reintroduced in 13 other European countries without causing problems - again, apparently. ;)
Coming back for another one of your short comebacks? I've heard a lot about you... :p
Oh, I am not away as much as you'd think, just less prone to spam. :p It's all true... except if you heard it from Bloodstalker. :D
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Post by Hill-Shatar »

[QUOTE=Georgi]Well, that is the proposed programme in Scotland, yes, but it hasn't gone ahead as yet. The six beavers that have just been introduced are in Gloucestershire, and they are Bavarian. Incidentally, they havne't actually been properly released into the wild as yet, they are in a fenced enclosure on private land.



Don't ask me, I believe everything I read on the BBC! :p I did say "apparently". From what I can make out, it's because the European beaver builds less dams than the North American beaver, preferring to live in burrows, so less deforestation and also less likelihood of causing floods. The beaver has been reintroduced in 13 other European countries without causing problems - again, apparently. ;)



Oh, I am not away as much as you'd think, just less prone to spam. :p It's all true... except if you heard it from Bloodstalker. :D [/QUOTE]

Ooh, goody, other countries that are not as densly populated at England. Apparently. :D

Anyways, here was call those beavers that burrow woodchucks or muskrats. They must not differ in England... besides,may beavers now reside in lakes here, having there damn along the side of the coast, and not blocking anything.

Looks like another adaption made long ago to allow for living in different enviroments. I truthfully thought that all European countries were without beavers due to over hunting. Then again, I usually do not follow developements of the beaver loving community.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
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Post by Georgi »

Hill-Shatar wrote:Anyways, here was call those beavers that burrow woodchucks or muskrats. They must not differ in England... besides,may beavers now reside in lakes here, having there damn along the side of the coast, and not blocking anything.
Well, they are all different species: the muskrat is Ondatra zibethicus, the woodchuck is Marmota monax, whereas the beavers are Castor canadensis and Castor fiber (North American and European, respectively), so they're definitely not the same thing.
Looks like another adaption made long ago to allow for living in different enviroments. I truthfully thought that all European countries were without beavers due to over hunting. Then again, I usually do not follow developements of the beaver loving community.
Are you saying you're not a beaver fan? :confused: :D I think a lot of European countries did hunt beavers to extinction, hence all these reintroduction plans - they must do something useful ecologically, or they wouldn't bother.
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Post by Lestat »

[QUOTE=Hill-Shatar]Ooh, goody, other countries that are not as densly populated at England. Apparently. :D

Anyways, here was call those beavers that burrow woodchucks or muskrats. They must not differ in England... besides,may beavers now reside in lakes here, having there damn along the side of the coast, and not blocking anything.

Looks like another adaption made long ago to allow for living in different enviroments. I truthfully thought that all European countries were without beavers due to over hunting. Then again, I usually do not follow developements of the beaver loving community.
[/QUOTE]They were also reintroduced in the Netherlands, which is even more densely populated.
Woodchucks & muskrats are completely different species alltogether.
Beaver: Castor fiber (European) & Castor canadensis (American) of the Beaverfamily (Castoridae).
Muskrat: Ondatra zibethicus of the Cricetidae (Hamster family)
Woodchuck: Marmota monax of the Sciuriadae (Squirrel family).
So we have our own beaver which is just slightly less inclined to build dams.
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Post by Georgi »

@Lestat beat you to it :D although in slightly less scientific detail ;)
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Post by Hill-Shatar »

Bah, my statement was an off the cuff comment. :D I am a beaver fan... obviously you donot spend enough time in the tap and tea. :D

Does anyone have any other links other than the one provided? :confused:
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Post by Georgi »

[QUOTE=Hill-Shatar]Does anyone have any other links other than the one provided? :confused: [/QUOTE]

No, that seems to be the premium beaver reintroduction website around. Maybe if you went to Google and searched for "beaver"... :D
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Post by Hill-Shatar »

[QUOTE=Georgi]No, that seems to be the premium beaver reintroduction website around. Maybe if you went to Google and searched for "beaver"... :D [/QUOTE]


No, random surfing is not good to go by. I would ask BS, but all he has are pictures of Fas and sheep, and Fas vice versa...

Maybe Aegis has some sites that do with introducing the beaver to the snakes...? :confused: :o :D They are quite common over here, you know... :D

All my knowledge with beavers comes first... hand. :D
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Post by Fiona »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/conservation/ ... 51,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 65,00.html

These two stories appeared in the guardian newspaper today. Are they, by any chance, related?
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Post by Dottie »

Well, as far as I can tell one of them is about Britain and the other about Sweden. How do you mean they are related? If you mean that reintroducing any animal will cause meetings between that animal and humans then that is obviously the case, but I can hardly see that as a problem in any foreseeable future.
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Post by Fiona »

sorry Dottie. I was being facetious. I just had a vision of how British people would handle drunken elks :D
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