Constructive criticism?

[Kahlan]

Before I say anything, I would like the moderator to know that I did read that you could not post things such as, "This game totally sucks! blah blah blah." That is not what I am doing. I am giving the game constructive criticism, and I would like to hear what other people think. But if you must remove this thread I would understand, please at least read the whole thing before you make a decision.

I went out and bought this game for $40 right when it came out. After installing the game with anticipation, I was very disapointed once I began playing. I can honestly say that I could only bring myself to play for two hours, before uninstalling it. I could have spent $20 on a higher quality game.

The gameplay, in comparison to other games, is terrible! The game developers had a good idea going, but they had to ruin it with lack of effort. The dungeons are very cookie-cutter, and could have been soooo much more in depth. The graphics are nothing impressive, and I've seen better char models from older, crappier games.

This game was not fun! There is nothing in DL that I couldn't find in a better game. Out of the four classes, any of them could use magic on a whim! I tried a wizard and was killed by the second baddie due to my spell not being ready, so why not be a magic-wielding warrior that can actually survive? Granted, maybe it's just cuz I suck at the game.

All in all, I will NEVER play this game again, and I will be cautious before buying something from the same developers.

I realize that this is MY PERSONAL OPINION of the game, so if you like it and enjoy playing it, more power to you! I would like people to respond to this thread, because im curious to see some of the reasons you all like it. If there is anyone who agrees with me, respond and give other players your reasons as well.

I quote Game Informer when I say, "Dungeon Lords. Generic name, generic game."

[ferncliff]

If you only played for 2 hours how do you know the dungeons are cookie cutter? You could have only played through 2 at the most and probably only one. I would say that the one thing they got right in this game is the dungeons. There just aren't enough of them. So to your main point I agree the game is incomplete. As far a being a pure magic user in the game it is true that in the beginning you have to use a melee weapon but you can find a magic weapon fairly early and certainly by midway through you can do completely without a weapon. Anyhow I have to generally disagree, the game is fun. Unfortunately it's not as fun as it should have been because for whatever reason they stopped short of finishing before its release. D

[Kahlan]

[QUOTE=ferncliff]If you only played for 2 hours how do you know the dungeons are cookie cutter? You could have only played through 2 at the most and probably only one.[/QUOTE]
You are 100% correct! I only got through about two dungeons in the beginning. Perhaps I was too quick to say they were cookie-cutter, so I apologize.

The dungeons I went through however were very simple. When I entered a new room it seemed as if I was only re-entering the previous room.

But, like you said, I only have two hours to base it on. Thanks for letting me know your opinion!!

[Gobatcha]

I had a blast playing this game

I've posted my experiences with this game in this forum, but I always relish the chance to do it again.
I've played RPGs such as BG, BG2, IWD, IWD2, NOX, Planescape, etc, but this was my first time playing an RPG with the 3rd person perspective and modeled 3D landscape. I had a blast. My experience was not without its share of bugs and glitches, but I worked through them. I'm used to patching/updating and working through such things with any PC game.

Khalan:
You posted that you didn't enjoy the gameplay, but that's a very vague statement. Could you qualify that with specifics?

You posted that the dungeons are very cookie cutter and I think I see your point. The pattern of wall textures repeats continuously and this could've bored you, but I thought it added to the excitment of possibly getting lost as would actually happen to me if I were dropped in a monster infested sewer or tomb.

You posted that there was nothing in DL that you couldn't find in a better game. I would agree. A superior product must include everthing and more than what is found in an inferior product. That's how it qualifies as 'better'.

About any class using magic. To me that's a good deal. Just like a white collar exec could try his hand at carpentry. He probably won't be good at it, but he can do it. The same is true in DL. Specific skills open up to classes that specialize in chosen fields (magic and melee). A fighter type can add advancement points to basic magic skills, but they'll cost him more per level than a mage type would spend. Plus, if a fighter decides to add advancement points to casting skills over melee skills, he won't be a very effective fighter. The opposite is also true. Thus there are advantages to broadening your character and many players choose two guilds to gain benefits from both melee and magic (I chose the Battlemage/Deathlord path). When I began the game as a lowly mage wanna-be my best weapon was something a goblin dropped and a short bow. It got better eventually and I became a Fiend summoning, dual wielding bad-ass. That was a blast!
That's my opinion.
I'm curious to know what games you found more satisfying so I can compare.

[Kahlan]

[QUOTE=Gobatcha]Khalan:
You posted that you didn't enjoy the gameplay, but that's a very vague statement. Could you qualify that with specifics?[/QUOTE]
I just don't think the game was as thought out as it should have been. The game controls took the majority of an hour for me to learn. (Not easy things like attack, but like trying to switch back and fourth between spells and melee.)

That was enough to sort of momentarily turn me off to the game. However, I kept trudging through the dungeon trying to stay as unbiast as possible. As I kept coming upon unsuspecting sewer rats, I realized that when fighting it was basically a mad click-fest! There were no special attacks, no cool combos, nothing to make the fighting exciting for me. This kind of took all the fun out of it. I have to admit though, that I did enjoy using the shield to hide from the enemies.

[QUOTE=Gobatcha]You posted that the dungeons are very cookie cutter and I think I see your point. The pattern of wall textures repeats continuously and this could've bored you, but I thought it added to the excitment of possibly getting lost as would actually happen to me if I were dropped in a monster infested sewer or tomb.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate that even though you enjoy the game, you see where I'm coming from. The way you described it is very interesting. I can see that it would be kind of cool the way you explained it. Having the feeling of helplessness because you keep taking a wrong turn, all the halls look the same, and you feel like you'll never get out!! But for me, I like feeling like I'm exploring different places each time.

[QUOTE=Gobatcha]You posted that there was nothing in DL that you couldn't find in a better game. I would agree. A superior product must include everthing and more than what is found in an inferior product. That's how it qualifies as 'better'.[/QUOTE]
VERY good point! I kind of feel stupid now! I was just meaning that I would rather buy the better game.

[QUOTE=Gobatcha]I'm curious to know what games you found more satisfying so I can compare.[/QUOTE]
Some games I might recommend instead of this would be World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Asheron's call, Final Fantasy XI, Everquest, Neverwinter Nights... But those are just a few.

Thank you, Gobatcha, for respectfully meeting my criticism!!

[Gobatcha]

What else ya got?

Kahlan,
You posted: Some games I might recommend instead of this would be World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Asheron's call, Final Fantasy XI, Everquest, Neverwinter Nights... But those are just a few.

These are MMORPGs. Could you recommend any single player RPGs? I'm not a fan of MMOGs with subscription fees, e-bay(ing) for weapons and money, haughty super-god newbie haters, etc.

[CM]

I am going to allow the post as long as it is constructive and you discuss the legitmate issues with the game play. I don't want comments like the quests are boring and the chests under water are a pain. Make the comments legitmate and respectful. I do not want this to turn into another "Bash DL" thread.

If people feel this thread should be closed, please pm me and I will take it up with Buck personally and he can decide what course of action should be taken.

[oldcodgergamer6]

constructive critisisim {sp}

i for one have found the game fun to play and very challenging. i guess i haven.t run into any major bugs as of yet. i have played diablo 1 and 2 and dungeon seige and in my opinion this ranks as good as they do. i am in the midst of fighting old nausouelm and have died many times already. but that is the challenge of the game. i wandered around in the sewers and the human lands but so what. i gained experience and found a few treasures along the way. all in all if you keep an open mind when you play the game it is a fun game. you didn,t think it was going to be a 2 hour dash to the finish i hope.

[Kahlan]

@Gobatcha: That's true, all these titles are MMO's. Neverwinter can be played offline, and has a pretty good storyline. If you played and enjoyed the Baldurs Gate games, you'll love Neverwinter Nights. Sacred is a good single player, Diablo-style RPG. Star Wars: KOTOR is a D&D type game that is very enjoyable. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind is a MUST for an awesome 3rd person RPG. I would also recommend Fable if you haven't yet tried it.

@CM: Thank you for keeping up my thread!! If you read some of the previous posts you will see that I just want others opinions, and have not been disrespectful towards anyone.

@oldcodgergamer6: I have also played the Diablo games, and am a HUGE fan!! Dungeon Siege was not one of my favorites, but it was a good RPG for Microsoft. It's interesting that you would rank Dungeon Lords up with Blizzard's Diablo titles. And no, when I bought DL, I expected to spend hours and hours playing it. That didn't work out as I had planned.

[Damn Snakes!]

The inital phase of the game is a bit numbing - but as my character grew in skills and speed - the cool combo attacks we eventually there - my warrior had to earn them! They were not just a quick learn of the keypad, but opened up only after a LOT of time and effort - my 2nd and 3rd time through this game were much more fun at the begining -as I understood my character's limitations and learning curve, and I could plan accordingly - my major complaint is that it was over too soon, once I really got the hang of it - I love the one-on-one aspect of the battles with the bosses - going toe to toe with a ninja lord or a troll giant - I love the "shield" usage - I am still learning the strategy of the game - but I am on my 4th time through - as a rogue magician - with lots of hope for future versions of this game!

[Goth_Furox]

Aww, so shoot me, I'm a fan of MMORPG's as well. I've been online throughout diablo, starcraft, NWN, EQ, SWG, EQ2, the re-vamp of EQ....However, you still have it wrong bro. The best way to divorce yourself from reality and therefore ENJOY a fantsay game is to make the game more real and that's what this does, much like Gobatcha said. Yeah, the graphics may just be a bit behind the times, but look at the headlines EQ made when it came out and it's graphics were (and still are, I might add) behind the "power curve". Yet people still played (and still do). The graphics and the plot are much less intensive to a game once YOU decide to not have expectations of it. If you expect a game to look like x, play like y and have a plot like z, you'll not have fun no matter which game you decide to take off the shelf. This game lets me do things I simplky can't do in MMORPG's, that's why I enjoy it, despite it's "lack of plot and graphics".

If my BH is having a hard week in SWG I can't just take a day off to gather parts and cobble together a starfighter, which you can approximate here. When your fighter gets tired of hacking away, he can shoot off a nova burst and summon some peons to annihilate his enemies through nether magic (or vice versa). Try getting my chanter in EQ to pick a lock and you can guess how it turns out....but here you can. No matter how much the odds are stacked against you in here, you can always at least TRY something, which is something that just about every other game out there lacks. That realism lets you play your character the way YOU want to in a way other games don't seem to be able to match.

In short, I think you might find the game more enjoyable if you forget everything you think a game should be. Instead, with this game try to get your character to be what you would be...after all THAT'S what a role-playing game's about. It's not supposed to test the limits of a given set of rules by min/maxing somebody to get the best DPS; it's about becoming your toon FIRST and then trying to figure out how to survive....

[Kahlan]

@Damn Snakes!: That's cool that your still having fun! As for the combo attacks, its good to know that they exist if you get far enough in the game. Congrats of your fourth time through the game, and good luck with your rogue-magician!!

@Goth_Furox: I agree. MMO's are awesome, but they are very different from dungeon crawling in a good single player RPG, where you can focus on a single storyline, and worry about your char's personal growth. Both game styles are cool, depending on what you feel like. About the game graphics, that's not the reason I stopped playing it, I just thought I would state that there is room for improvement. By the way, you can't tell someone, "That's what an RPG is all about," because the concept of an RPG is so much more! Yes, you usually try to create a character that portays yourself, but that is only the 'tip of the iceberg.' A true RPG should consist of many things. A strong storyline. One that will stand tall as you immerse yourself into the other aspects of the game. A wondrous in-depth world, with people full of life and personality. Characters that the player can be relate to. That you want to spend hours with, bringing to their full potential. Gameplay that will, regardless of other obligations, keep you constantly playing and craving for more. Even I cannot fully explain the significance of an RPG, as most of the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Kborom]

As you are after opinions I'll give you mine

I held off buying this game given the reviews, and when I finally relented it was after checking forums such as these to see the extent of the problems and after 1.3 was released.

I am really enjoying the game, it is a tough RPG (thankfully - I'm fed up with the easy ones and I include Neverwinter/Fable as "easy") and your character does slowly get better and able to do more things, just like an RPG character should.
The best thing for me is that the gameplay changes as the game progresses, the puzzles/trials are not the standard "kill loads of monsters" quests even though it is action orientated. With the Diablo (and Dungeon Siege) series, I felt that the gameplay there was the same after 5 minutes as it was after 30 hours - not the same with DL.

Overall, I am happy with the game from 1.3 onwards (have not played the previous versions) and am looking forward to improvements as and when 1.4 is available.

[Kenrenk]

Dam no reason I don't give my feeling too. :laugh:

Dungeon Lords isn't in the same category than BG or Morrowind and you can't compare to them the world size and depth of Dungeon Lords. It isn't in MMORPG categories, a chance for me, I still have to see a MMORPG wich is fun to play solo or that you never play solo, this side note includes WOW. Also judging it after a couple of hour doesn't deserve to the real fun it has.

Dungeon Lords (1.3) is far to be a finished game because of many missing features and unpolished design parts. Anyway, now I don't regret at all my buy. I finished it once and I am at the half of a second play. It's far to be a perfect game, I have many complain, but it's still a good game. In my own pantheon I feel it as good than Dungeon Siege and Diablo 2 and better than Icewind Dale.

Dungeon Lords is even better in giving an RPG feeling than those 3 games. The goal of Diablo 2 was mainly to be an action game and online multiplayer, but not to feel like an RPG so it's not surprising that DL succeed better on this. DL RPG approach is very similar than in Icewind Dale or Dungeon Siege and Dungeon Lords beat them both on this aspect.

Those three are more polished games than is DL 1.3, but even in its unfinished state, DL 1.3 at least never crash and has only very few bug arround saving/reload. Also it offers a good gaming value despite the missing features.

• Story stuff and RPG background is much better and deeper than in Diablo 2. A bit better than in Dungeon Siege and roughly equal than in Icewind Dale.
• Even if the world is limited you get much more a feeling of a world than in Diablo 2 and DS. This is mainly because of a much better management of non linearity even if there is in fact a lot of (well) hidden linearity. To tell the truth this RPG world feeling even works better than in NWN (despite NWN is much more at RPG depth of BG than DL).
• DL class system is more original and more complex than in DS. It is less original than in Diablo 2 but almost as complex. Icewind Dale inherits of the BG class system and is overall more complex but this is classical old stuff with the default of having strict path building with most of the character building decided at creation and through items used. Dungeon Lords class system is a little limited in order to fit the size of the game, but it has a good complexity and depth. It mixes both a lot of flexibility and gives different classes that have different mood something missing to Morrowind. I am still discovering it but for now I feel it very interesting. In fact with some tuning of the various magics, some development of the guilds and class progressions, some corrections for some skills to make them more usefull in solo play (backstab and sneak), more hieraldy stuff and perhaps a few more skills, that could be the best RPG Class system if developed in a game of the size and depth of games like Morrowind or BG.
• Action system cannot be compared to DS which is too different, but it can be compared to any RPG using single character approach by opposition to team. NWN, Diablo 2 and Morrowind can be used for comparison. In this area DL borrows many stuff to Morrowind but improved it significantly. It works better than in NWN but it doesn't has one or two NPC joining the main player, a feature that puts NWN out of the single character approach. DL action doesn't have the depth and complexity of Diablo 2 but Diablo 2 get a lot of depth from a dexterity level I refuse to learn, so I feel DL mostly as good than Diablo 2 in this area but not so many people will feel the same. Anyway overall the action system is pretty good and has a good depth and complexity.

After to have been very positive with DL let go for the criticism, constructive I hope. Ok the first hour of play of many good games are far to show their real fun but DL failmore than most and too much to tell the truth. During the first two area (first outdoor and first dungeon) which means at least two hours of play :

• The action doesn't show a lot because it isn't easy to discover/learn and because most of the stuff isn't yet available.
• You won't feel a lot the class fun because you won't met any guild and won't have a class progress. Because you will get less experience points at first levels and will have only a limited skill points to choose. Because you won't get any hieraldy or special class stuff through some merchant.
• You won't see story progression because you'll get only three limited NPC talking.
• You won't get a world feeling because the first outside area is very limited and the dungeon won't help.

In fact later these features will improve a lot. You'll get class feeling, story progression, world feeling. And the action will improve a lot. Partialy because you will have discover/learn stuff like using jumping attacks, back flip, mixing well the different sort of attacks, managing fighting against group. Because you will really get spells to discover and setup tactics with them. Because you'll have invest skill points to get combo attack and athletism moves or eventually the very fun hand fighting (for few classes). Because you will found new weapons and discover the adventadges and disaventadges of different weapons to use in different situations for different tactics.

But there are also other weakness hurting your first hours of play that won't improve later or rarely, and some weakness you'll discover later:

• Lack of good puzzles. You'll find them only in some dungeons and some of them perhaps too tough with lack of hints.
• Lack of mid-secrets and secrets that are put in evidence and that aren't too difficult to find.
• Outdoor area with an impressive look and realistic diversity but in fact too few stuff to discover. About this point a comparison with Morrowind is terrible but Morrowind performs particularely well in this area.
• Sometimes an abuse of design based on random encounters involving sometimes a feeling of fighting repetitions.
• Rooms in towns a lot too big and terribly empty, or just empty houses in towns or empty camp.
• Elven town badly designed with too big distances involving some feeling of empty area.
• In some parts of some dungeon including in the first one, an abuse of graphic and architecture reuse involving some repetition feeling.
• In one dungeon plenty mini real mazes that are totally boring stuff, thanks to the banshee walkthrough I could skip this crap.
• Unlock and disarm trap system is quite original but becomes tiedous in the long run.
• The save system through only 10 slots is very tiedous if not a crap. It doesn't match the lack of auto-save feature, potential bugs even if they are rare, depth of classes and character developement that involve to try alternate pathes without to replay the whole from the begining. And worse because patch 1.4 will correct a "bug" that was very helpfull to overcome a some problems linked to this, no more really usefull resurect feature as you won't be able after death to spend your skills points but will lost them all, this will make resurect a useless feature that won't use anymore any players appart in very few cases and well prepared before.

Additionaly I don't have yet a good overview on this because I haven't yet tried enough classes and character developement choices nor used and explored enough some parts as Neither or Runes magic. But I feel some more general design weakness that should have been tuned, like tuning rogue class and skills, probably tuning some aspects of Nether and Runes magic, having some classes more dedicated to Rune magic like there is for Nether magic.