Don't you wish BGII was more like BG?

[Vikramaditya]

After starting SOA for the 100th time a few days ago ( finished TOB only once) with most tactics mods installed, my party had completed most of the quests in Athkathla (except unseeing eye & Astral Prison) and stumbled into the crooked crane. As I'm RPing, they open the wall door and get the shock of their lives with the lich and his pet pit fiend (who with improved demons, summons the first in a chain of pit fiends. Joy )
Then it stuck me. The tactics mod and similiar enhancement mods have added a lot to the game, but have also created situations where we need to cheese or use uber items like the item upgrade mod or extreme reload knowledge to beat them. Is this arms race really worth it? I played my charecter through BG, and with the exception of Aec'Letec (whom I abandoned by my party ditching Hurgan for using us) I did not cheese any battles or prepare for a specific battle unless the game told me what to expect. I remember the simpler times in BG more fondly than the uber-tactics and uber-weapons in SOA/TOB.
I currently have true grandmastery installed (I created a GM in BGI, so I would not want to nerf him in SOA/TOB) and started SOA with 250k experience. Other than this, I don't use any cheese. My party starts each day with the same spell selection, don't use bonus merchants. I haven't bought any wands, other than the ones from Irenicus dungeon or any that I pick up as loot.
I've read six-of-spades tactics reviews, and was wondering if the forum members had any opinions on which tactics components to install/leave out to keep the game realistic. I like a challenge, but any component that requires me to use TOB abilities in SOA (I have disabled the cap, but will only use the regular 9th level spells, not the 'epic' spells or abilities) or the item upgrade mod or the bonus merchants is not worth it. Many Thanks..

[Aztaroth]

I have to agree with you... I played BG2 before BG, and I loved it. I still think BG2 is the better game, mostly since the NPCs are better developed. That's part of why it took me 2 years to get around to complete BG... Still, just about every other feature of BG appealed to me more than most in BG2. BG2, IMO, let's you in deeper into the game, but I can't help but find it odd how much more powerful the enemies are in BG2 (and especially ToB) than in BG... I mean, Sarevok was this extremely powerful godling, right? He completely *owned* Gorion, and Gorion was someone who was supposed to be almost equal to Elminster! Then, consider that at the end of BG the player kill Sarevok. Thus, the player is more powerful than Gorion was? Then he gets even more powerful in BG2! This means that just about every enemy that is a challenge for the player in BG2 is about as powerful as Elminster in BG!!! If you think about it, just about every enemy in ToB is INSANELY powerful! Any simple unnamed guard-ish guy in ToB is easily more powerful than Sarevok or Gorion was in BG!

Still, if they had kept us under level 10 throughout BG2 and ToB it wouldn't have been any fun at all...

[masteralef]

Well, Elminster was still vastly more powerful than Gorion. He's rated (in 2nd ed) with levels in the mid to high 20s in at least 3 (and I think all 4) classes.

As for do I wish?...no. To put it simply, wandering through random open areas got pretty tedious after a while. Granted, Alkathla has far too many liches for its own good floating about, but at least I don't have to search over 30 open areas to find a real quest!

[Thrifalas]

[QUOTE=Aztaroth]If you think about it, just about every enemy in ToB is INSANELY powerful! Any simple unnamed guard-ish guy in ToB is easily more powerful than Sarevok or Gorion was in BG![/QUOTE]

I don't think so, Sarevok still hit for about 30 hp, have high magic res, pretty decent amount of HP and is hasted - He'd be able to take down those guardguys. Gorion was a pushover (though he can still instakill your maxlevel sorceress - pretty strange), but he could mass those missiles. How many can he release before a guard is even able to hit him, given that they start far from each other? 20? 30? That's also pretty decent damage.

On to the topic - I'm very not sure. Love both games veeery much, though BGI is way to much nostalgia for BGII to ever compete with. BG1 have better feeling, non-abusive tactics, and is overall more comfortable. BG2 have some quite interesting characters (though they've failed with most of them), awesome spells and HLAs.

I wouldn't chance any of them though. This is still the ONLY game ever made which is able to give you the feeling that you're actually growing strong - very strong. At the beginning you fight Kobolds and run from Ogres, at the end you slay Dragons and Demons alike, and if you're lucky you'll be able to get yourself some demigod goodies. Compare it to the one of the everpopular games, like any of the FF series - there's no such feeling in any of them, and that's what they lack the most.

[krunchyfrogg]

[QUOTE=Vikramaditya]
I currently have true grandmastery installed (I created a GM in BGI, so I would not want to nerf him in SOA/TOB) and started SOA with 250k experience. Other than this, I don't use any cheese. My party starts each day with the same spell selection, don't use bonus merchants. I haven't bought any wands, other than the ones from Irenicus dungeon or any that I pick up as loot.
[/QUOTE]
How did you get to grand mastery without cheating in BGI?

[Draconin]

One of the things that got me REALLY annoyed when I first played BG2 was the innability to explore. In the first game, you could go travelling all over the map. But in BG2 you have to trigger some event in order to travel to areas outside the city.

Additionally, I liked the plot of the original much better. You start as a kid from Candlekeep who's foster father was killed by a mysterious figure in the night. You travel across the Sword Coast unravelling the mystery as to who is behind the iron shortage, bandits, and the beginnings of what might be a war with Amn. I personally was shocked the first time I found the letter that reveals the PCs true heiritage. You track down Sarevok, stop his plans to become a grand duke, and finally confront him in the temple of Bhaal under Baldur's Gate. (I loved the final battle; it really gave me a sense of 'you saved the day' and all that). Then, in BG2, you are captured by some people who are able to defeat easily(despite the fact that you killed Sarevok) and end up in a dungeon. You go out, raise some money, fight some badguys, chase the villains. There's very little depth to it, and the final battle is quite anti-climactic. Now, who's the better villain: A sinister armored figure with diabolical plots for war, who happens to be a godling AND your sibling, who you can look at and know right away that he's one bad dude, or some crazy elf(kinda) sorcerer with an obsession with death who wants a lot of power.

There were a lot more optional quest in BG1, and I think that certainly counts for something. Also, the memory of travelling with my old party(Jaheira, Khalid, Imoen, Xan and Xzar) really touches something deep down.

EDIT: I should have said something about my favorite character ever, my elf ranger.

[Chanak]

@Draconin: Do not post back-to-back in a thread. I have taken the content of your second post and added it to the first, and deleted the second one. Do this yourself in the future: that's what the "Edit" button is for.

[Xandax]

I greatly missed the feel of Baldur's Gate 1 in Baldur's Gate 2, and would have liked if BG2 was more like BG1 in the design of the areas.

I liked the fact that there were more areas which one could explore while still keeping the game somewhat liniar so you didn't loose focus on where to go and when.
Baldur's Gate 2 felt cramped compared to this - you couldn't step outside the starting area before you had a number of quests, and the quests came in rapid succession. Here I felt it could have been good to have more areas so the quests could have been spread out.

As for the power-ratio, then that is how games go. The fact that Sarevok was "high level" in BG1 but not by BG2 standards, only goes to show that the levels of BG2 were placed on a higher platform.
If Sarevok had been the end boss in BG2, then he would have had a level to match, however, you couldn't add a level 20-25 character (for instance) as the end boss of a game which only brought the player to level 7.
So you can't compare levels across the games in this manner.
But with Throne of Bhaal, I do feel the developers went overboard and increased the levels to insane and with the cheesed up foes and items. It was "to much".

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=Xandax]If Sarevok had been the end boss in BG2, then he would have had a level to match, however, you couldn't add a level 20-25 character (for instance) as the end boss of a game which only brought the player to level 7.
So you can't compare levels across the games in this manner.[/QUOTE]
I think you're underestimating the Sarevok we had to fight in BG1. If memory serves, here are his stats:

285 hit points
5 attacks per round with a +5 two-handed sword (+6 damage with his Strength bonus)
THAC0 -6 (with all bonuses applied) (he can hit AC -8 on a roll of 2 or higher)
AC -5
90% resistance to fire, cold, electricity, and acid
50% resistance to missile damage
invulnerability to many types of magic
hasted movement rate

That looks like a buffed, tricked out 25th Level character from Throne of Bhaal to me. If he were a member of my party, I'd let him fight an army of fire giants all by himself.

[Vikramaditya]

[QUOTE=krunchyfrogg]How did you get to grand mastery without cheating in BGI?[/QUOTE]

Hmm...Well, I created a grandmaster in my BGI install, (of course, he takes some time to get there..Lvl9, since we're only allowed 2 prof points in any weapon at the beginning of BGI), and he has the same Thaco as my grandmaster in BGII with the Grandmastery patch applied..so unless I patched my BGI install too (which is possible, it's been a while) I always assumed true grandmastery was implemented in BGI.

I guess I was nostalgic for BGI, as BGII seems about loss - the loss of a friend, the loss of innocence.. Another issue is BGII gives you insane amounts of XP for trivial things. Come on, Mae'var is a challenging fight for a low level party, but almost 35000 Xp per person? That's 1/6 of my BGI xp (which took me 90 days of game time)!.. I feel you lose a sense of accomplishment in these quick level ups. I remember being delighted when I crossed all of the Sword Coast to get from lvl6 to Lvl8. In BGII, hey, go talk to x, do y, and presto! another level!

Mods like Tactics which feed into this, and are created specifically to counteract any player tactics were the icing on the cake. The game stopped being enjoyable, just a series of chess games to be won.

In my new game, I've uninstalled all tactics mods (expect grandmastery), installed quest packs like UB and Quest pack. I've cut Xp for non-combat related tasks (lock-picking, scribing, quest xp) to 1/5 of normal Xp. (I implement the changes via Shadowkeeper at levelup)

I've currently finished several quests in Athkathla. The ones left are Astral Prison, Copper Coronet, Unseeying eye, Mae'var and the graveyard. I still have to leave town for the first time. My 3-char party gained 200k xp through combat, and would have gained around 250k xp through non-combat tasks! Instead, they get only 50k xp for non-combat tasks, for a total of 250k xp. They will level up slower. Basic battles will be more difficult. Torgal will be tough now, not a pushover who needs improved Torgal to be challenging. They might crack the Xp cap only near the very end (if at all) instead of gaining handfuls of HLAs in SOA. I think this will give me a far greater sense of achievement than playing chess games with unbeatable scenarios...

[rotschopf]

Well, I never managed to finish BG1. I got bored half-way through it. The only reason I'm currently trying to finally do it is that I need the detailed background of the player character.

But anyways, back on topic. No, I don't wish that BG2 was more like BG1. I certainly could've done without TOB because, to me, that one has more of an ego shooter to me than anything else, and if I want that, I play Sacred.

Other than that, I like BG2, especially with Solaufein and The Darkest Day installed (yes, I hear you, Ronin ). The Solaufein quests are really challenging IMHO, but they still didn't need any cheese to be completed. The only thing you need to know is how to effectively play a fighter/mage.

What grates on my nerves in BG2 are the stronghold quests, especially if you have the De'Arnise Keep. After the nth time, you just wish for it to be gone (hearing you again, Ronin. do that mod, pretty please). Or for other options.

I enjoy mods best that add new areas to BG2. Simply because you won't even be tempted to power play since you don't know what to expect. So, if you want a challenge, install TDD.

My two cents.

Take care!

luv & hugs
The Drow

[mr_sir]

[QUOTE=rotschopf]Well, I never managed to finish BG1. I got bored half-way through it. The only reason I'm currently trying to finally do it is that I need the detailed background of the player character.
[/QUOTE]

i'm the same. i start playing it then end up getting bored and then forgetting to go back to it. i really enjoy the main quests and things but i personally feel like there are too many little areas to explore, especially as i'm the kind of guy that can't just miss and area or not fully explore it lol. i'm nearly up to the final battle now, but i have to say, as good as bg1 is, i much prefer bg2 and the way it is set out. tob was a bit of a disappointment though.

[fable]

Spam removed. If you want to discuss another RPG, or a mix of RPGs, find the appropriate forum. This forum's about BG2/SoA, and the question's "Don't you wish BG2 was more like BG?"

[krunchyfrogg]

A) Relax mod-man, I was just trying to be helpful.

B) Definition of spam: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... efine:Spam

[vzdor]

In a way, yes. Even though its was a good thing that BG2 was much more focused and detailed than the prequel, i kind of missed the open wilderness areas with dozens of encounters that didnt have anything to do with the main plot or the major side quests.
My major pun with BG2 was the sheer amount of experience rewards and über items being tossed around, many which were too easy to acquire. It was a bit silly that in the end of BG2, your party's gear comprised only of powerful magical items.
And yes, TOB went totally over the board.
I didnt really like the fight-cheese-with-cheese-approach of the Tactics mods (though some of the components were good), but i recently ran into an interesting mod at pocketplane.net which severely cuts down the insane amount of XP the player gets even from rather simple quests and tasks, thus making it harder for the player to ascend into a ultimate avatarhood of cheesiness.
Looking forward to trying that the next time i play the game.

[MisterMan]

I have to say it's about even. I love BG2 because of the higher levels and better systems and what not, but I love BG because it's a completely open, non-linear map where you're free to explore the wilderness. This may sound silly, but BG1 strikes me as more Tolkienesque. Orcs, goblins, elves, dwarves, forests, rivers, etc. I like that better. No mind flayers or other such crap. You brought up an interesting point that I never even thought about. Not preparing spells for a specific fight. I don't do this the first time, but if I get stomped I will.

[Bekk]

To be honest I liked Baldur's Gate I a bit more than Baldur's Gate II. The story was slightly better and I like the traveling. It's more realistic to have you travel from place to place, and it gave the game a feeling of adventure as well as challenge. In BGII it was boring to find the end of your area and then point to one way across the map and be there a few seconds later. There was no adventure along the way, simply a load screen. The story was also better, but not because of Sarevok, because Irenicus is a far more interesting character. He's evil yet an existential thinker at the same time, giving him reason and logic behind his action whereas Sarevok just caried a reckless hatred about that had to be stopped. Sarevok was the rather typical enemy whereas Irenicus was a bit more complex.