IWD2 Powergaming guide: please post related questions, comments or input here!

[myrophine]

honestly the low level caster buffs are not even worth using and do not make too big of a difference

If you look at Silverdragon's post he was talking about wizard and cleric MAJOR classes. So in the first place they would have more than just minor buffs. They would have the whole shebang..like 8th and 9th level spells.

In second place wizard is good even with 3 levels as mixin because you get mirror image. I don't think I stand alone in the feeling that mirror image is a good spell. I would sacrifice a few hp, feats, or whatever i need to get several casting of MI (well at least leave that as an option and not scoff at it as a 'low buff').

The rest of your post was some ad hominem invective...something about ego. I think anger/jealousy smell more like ego to me than sharing some opinion thread about the power party {a quality well researched one at that}.

myrophine

[Dedigan]

I don't usually respond to obvious trolls, but Raumoheru has touched on a couple of outdated paradigms which need to be dispelled.

First, drow are the best race. If they had no other ability than spell resistance, they would still be the best race. A properly run drow character will rarely, if ever, take magical damage or fall victim to control spells. Drows are better than deep gnomes only because of the ECL difference.

Second, and if you have ever played heart of fury mode you would know this, melee builds are only useful if you like constantly resurrecting your character. It doesn't matter how much punishment your character can take, the idea is to create characters who take no punishment. The old fashioned tank always takes punishment, therefore isn't as useful as another priest or mage.

If you had actually played the game, you would know how important extra skill points are early in the game. You only asked that question to troll.

Paladin levels above level 3 are wasted because if you want a fighter, a fighter is the better choice for higher levels. The paladin doesn't gain unique skills while the fighter constantly gains bonus feats. So if you insist on having a fighter in the party(remember, it is not recommended), a fighter is a better choice than a paladin. The higher level paladin skills are better used by a priest class.

As mentioned a million times before, low level arcane buffs, specifically mirror image, can turn the tide of any battle. Blur and blink can also make a huge difference in the game.

The reason that SD comes off like he thinks he knows what he's talking about is simple. He knows what he's talking about.

[krunchyfrogg]

Again, about character 1: I'm building a character similar to him, and was wondering what if the 4 Fighter levels are really worth it? If so, what weapons are good to specialize in (I have a more classicly built tank in a pure class Battleguard of Tempus, so I've already got the Axe covered)?

I was thinking that I might be better off ditching two handed weapons with this guy, and instead of going Rogue 3/Barbarian 3/Fighter 4 like your guide suggests, I'd go Rogue 3/Barbarian 3/Fighter 2/Ranger 2. Since this character won't wear armor after starting to gain Wizard levels, dual weilding might outweigh using one large weapon (especially when you consider the sneak attack damage can be added an additional time/round).

[Raumoheru]

The rest of your post was some ad hominem invective...something about ego. I think anger/jealousy smell more like ego to me than sharing some opinion thread about the power party {a quality well researched one at that}.

yes, ok the post was partialy made out of anger because of this:

Second, and if you have ever played heart of fury mode you would know this, melee builds are only useful if you like constantly resurrecting your character. It doesn't matter how much punishment your character can take, the idea is to create characters who take no punishment. The old fashioned tank always takes punishment, therefore isn't as useful as another priest or mage.

If you had actually played the game, you would know how important extra skill points are early in the game. You only asked that question to troll

i have soloed the game with a fighter 4 barb X build, and a pure monk. they are powerfull classes and Silver Dragon thinks that they are not. thus i think he does not know what he is talking about.


The thread title is called "IWD2 Powergaming guide: please post related questions, comments or input here!" and i am merely putting in my comments/input.

i think that guide is a load of crap.

[myrophine]

@krunchyfrogg: I think you can make a really good character like you suggest. But I like the F4 better.

You might be interested in looking up some old threads on dual wielding vs. 2 hand weapons vs. weapon plus shield.

Also compare F4 vs R2F2. I like the first better since you have 3 feats. They can be ambidex/2weapon plus something. With ranger you still get 3 things: dual wield = ambidex/2weap, and 1 favored enemy, but you don't get to choose what they are. Weapon specialization is superior to 1 favored enemy. You are stuck on a certain weapon, true, but you get +1/+2 against every enemy in the game with that weapon.

Edit: oops i overlooked that R2F2 gets 2 fighter feats too! My bad! So maybe its good. But you still miss out on Weapon specialization.

myrophine

[silverdragon72]

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@krunchyfrogg: R2F2 is quite a good option for build 1 but has some IWD2 specific disadvantages:


-> dual-wielding and ambidex are great feats and you should take them no matter if F4 or R2F2! But R2F2 get only access to these feats if they wear no or only light armor. Wouldn't all be a problem so if there wasn't dracca's chain / fury! This is the perfect armor for a spellsword - but for some reasons classified as medium armor! So if you want to use dracca's you will lose the free ranger feats!

-> besides this, the decision R2F2 vs. F4 mainly depends on the decision one extra feat vs. weapon spec. - but as this build gets already more feats (fighter & wiz bonus feats) as it needs I would tend to weapon spec.


...but as long as you don't plan to use dracca's both builds are more or less equal!

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[Melondar]

I'm trying to make a HoF party with just 3 PCs (more challenge, faster advancement, and I don't like dealing with 6 characters. 3 seems like the minimum I would need to do HoF.) It seems like the three best characters to have for this would be your characters 1,3 and 4. Here's my dillemma: One of these three characters needs to be the "diplomacy" character, and none of them have both high int and cha (which are both needed for that.)

I figured it would be possible to take the Pal/Sorc, lower her WIS to 4 and CON to 10, and raise her INT to 18, so her stats would be 10/18/10/18/4/20. Although I'd be sacrificing a huge amount of HP, it shouldn't matter too much, as I can probably get her AC above 60 anyway (and use the Pal/Clr as the main tank for tougher opponents.)

My two questions are this:
First, is there any huge disadvantage (other than penalty to saves) that I'm not realizing I would be taking by lowering WIS to 4?
Second, would I, in fact, be better off with 10 DEX and 18 CON, which would give me 120 more HP, but allow more opponents to hit me (and more often)? I'm thinking since this character could just cast MI anyway, she'd be better off with the DEX.

EDIT: I just realized that you can only decrease WIS to 5 with an Aasimar, but also that you only need 16 INT to get all of the diplimat skills plus concentration, so it works out. You only need 14 INT if you forgo intimidate, though I'm not 100% sure if that's a good idea.

I also noticed that for the Pal/Clr, you cite Combat Expertise as being an important feat to have, but she only has 3 Int (13 is required for the feat.) Is there some way to get this feat without having the required 13 int?

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=Melondar]I'm trying to make a HoF party with just 3 PCs (more challenge, faster advancement, and I don't like dealing with 6 characters. 3 seems like the minimum I would need to do HoF.) It seems like the three best characters to have for this would be your characters 1,3 and 4. Here's my dillemma: One of these three characters needs to be the "diplomacy" character, and none of them have both high int and cha (which are both needed for that.) [/QUOTE]

you should think about adding a 4th party member, adding PC 5 isn't a big deal and you even advance faster if you keep her at level 6 to 8, even have more challenge, as you need to protect her all the way through the normal game and she doesn#t need much management...-...and is the perfect diplomat even at low level...

[QUOTE=Melondar]I figured it would be possible to take the Pal/Sorc, lower her WIS to 4 and CON to 10, and raise her INT to 18, so her stats would be 10/18/10/18/4/20. Although I'd be sacrificing a huge amount of HP, it shouldn't matter too much, as I can probably get her AC above 60 anyway (and use the Pal/Clr as the main tank for tougher opponents.)[/QUOTE]

CON is an important stat for caster!


[QUOTE=Melondar]My two questions are this:
First, is there any huge disadvantage (other than penalty to saves) that I'm not realizing I would be taking by lowering WIS to 4?[/QUOTE]

for an arcane caster - no - but you will miss quite a lot of will saves!


[QUOTE=Melondar]Second, would I, in fact, be better off with 10 DEX and 18 CON, which would give me 120 more HP, but allow more opponents to hit me (and more often)? I'm thinking since this character could just cast MI anyway, she'd be better off with the DEX.[/QUOTE]


I would go for DEX but only if there is absolutely no other choice...


[QUOTE=Melondar]EDIT: I just realized that you can only decrease WIS to 5 with an Aasimar, but also that you only need 16 INT to get all of the diplimat skills plus concentration, so it works out. You only need 14 INT if you forgo intimidate, though I'm not 100% sure if that's a good idea.[/QUOTE]

...just try a 4th party member...


[QUOTE=Melondar]I also noticed that for the Pal/Clr, you cite Combat Expertise as being an important feat to have, but she only has 3 Int (13 is required for the feat.) Is there some way to get this feat without having the required 13 int? [/QUOTE]

...sorry - just a "copy and paste" mistake! there is no way to get this feat with less then 13 INT!


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[Melondar]

Ah, thanks for the advice. I started the game already, but I'm only the Horde Fotress so far, and I'm already thinking I made a mistake with the Pal/Clr character. I stupidly didn't realize at first that tensors is a self-only spell, and requires 11 wizard levels to cast. Without either that, the +5 from barkskin or the Deep Gnome racial bonus, the maximum I can get my AC (with 1 level each of Rogue and Wizard added in) is 64. Tensors is enough to get it to 70-71 which is good enough, but that requires a complete reworking of at least one character. If I add in a fourth as well, as you suggest, who could cast barkskin, then that AC would be raised comfortably above 72. So, it might be best if I start over.

As for the character who needs to be reworked, I was thinking that it would be best to go Drow, and level (in this order) Rogue 1/Monk 1/Ftr 2/Clr 15/Wiz 11. The last 9 wiz levels would be squatted to avoid an exp penalty. The monk would be a monk of the old order, and the cleric would be a cleric of bane. The ability scores to start out would be 10 Str/20 Dex/10 Con/16 Int/18 Wis/6 Cha. All extra points gained would go into Wis. This character, with the aid of a druid, could get 75+ AC. Without a druid, this character would need to be a Deep Gnome instead of a drow in order to get above 72 AC, although the margin would be much smaller, and this character would have Illusionist as a preferred class instead of Cleric, meaning that most of the cleric levels would need to be taken last in order to avoid an exp penalty, which would not be good since this is the only divine caster. Plus, with a +3 LA, this character will level quite slowly anyway. I think I prefer just having the extra character. A fourth one wouldn't kill me, and you make good points.

So, what do you think about this revised build?

[silverdragon72]

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...as I assume you will take the 9 squatted wiz levels last, you will get the full potential of this build quite late in HOF...

I would suggest to keep quite close to the builds 1, 3, 4 & 5 of my guide and you will have a quite powerfull party almost right away from the beginning...

...even if you leave out PC 2 this way (which is quite fun to play and much more of a loss then PC 6) but as you want a small party...


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[Klorox]

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-> dual-wielding and ambidex are great feats and you should take them no matter if F4 or R2F2! But R2F2 get only access to these feats if they wear no or only light armor. Wouldn't all be a problem so if there wasn't dracca's chain / fury! This is the perfect armor for a spellsword - but for some reasons classified as medium armor! So if you want to use dracca's you will lose the free ranger feats!

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Will the Rogue's Evasion ability work while wearing Dracca's Armor if it counts as medium armor?

[silverdragon72]

Will the Rogue's Evasion ability work while wearing Dracca's Armor if it counts as medium armor?

heavier armour then light doesn't count against rogue feats like it does with the ranger feats!

...so this will work!

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[Klorox]

heavier armour then light doesn't count against rogue feats like it does with the ranger feats!

...so this will work!

.

Are you sure that it'll stop the Ranger feats? I just read on another board that this armor is actually coded as a Robe.

Can anybody confirm or deny this?

[silverdragon72]

Are you sure that it'll stop the Ranger feats? I just read on another board that this armor is actually coded as a Robe.

Can anybody confirm or deny this?

rangers lose their free feats when wearing any "vanilla" med armour...

...don't know how this works with drakkas - don't know how the game mechanics work...

...maybe you need to code drakkas as a robe for the "no spell failure" effect. If drakkas is coded that way, rangers shouldn#t loose their feats.

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[Klorox]

So the text I quoted from you (first post on this page) could be inaccurate.

[silverdragon72]

So the text I quoted from you (first post on this page) could be inaccurate.

for your first question:

....even that it's not mentioned anywhere, the rogue evasion seems just to work with light armour or less...


for your second question:

official draccas is a med armour, so rangers should lose their free feats...

...if for coding reasons draccas counts as a robe, it would sound logical that rangers keep their free feats - but never tried this...


.

[Klorox]

Rogues can only use Evasion it light or no armor.

[silverdragon72]

Rogues can only use Evasion it light or no armor.

...right, but I think this is just mentioned nowhere...

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[Lazigothi]

Above Level 20 question

Since I'm near the end of the game and eager to play HOF, I'm curious about what happens after 20th level. Are there any epic abilities or any other new powers that are gained in classes after 20th level, or is it relegated to just the basic elements that advance (hit points, BAB, saves, # spells/ day)? The manual doesn't mention anything, and I can't find anything on the forums.

Is there any special incentive to stick with a class after 20th?

My Barbarian and Monk are both very close to reaching 20th, and I'm eager for the special abilities both of these classes offer at 20th. I've got a single class Fighter and Cleric, though, and although they're also close to 20th, if there's nothing special after 20th level, and since there doesn't seem to be anything special at 20th, I was thinking of picking second classes with them as well. With the Fighter, I was thinking as soon as they get that last bonus feat before getting at 20th, and switching the Cleric just a soon as she can cast 9th level spells (I can't recall what level that is at work).

[Klorox]

There aren't Epic abilities like in the pnp game, but Barbarians and Monks are the two classes that have some added bonuses. I personally don't think there's much of a point in adding more spellcasting levels though, as after level 20 the gains are rather minimal. Dips into other classes can really help (I'd prefer 2 levels of fighter for feats and HP, for example).