What BGII is GOOD/BAD at.

[two]

Most of us have finished at least half of BGII. (right?) So how does it compare to real-life RPGing? Any ideas?

My opinion is that BGII absolutely nails the AD&D ruleset far better than a real-life human would/could. What DM actually looks at weapon speed? Calculates the exact radius of a stinking cloud? Allows fun tactics like run/arrow/run/arrow vs. stupid monsters, or backstabbing, or monster summoning? And BGII handles huge battles (50 goblins vs. 4 characters) wonderfully fast.

I think, however, BGII suffers wretchedly with regards to romance, plots, narrative. Even a bad DM can come up with some decent spur-of-the-moment rapartee for a budding PC/NPC romance, and is far more flexible with regard to sub-quests, etc. I am often bored with the narrative of BGII -- it's all just get X give it to Y, buy stuff, rest, get Z give it to A, repeat, etc.

My opinion, to sum: BGII is an excellent pure strategy game, fast, complex, fun. For example, there are at leats 10 ways to kill a dragon, all different, all legal. And 10+ ways to get killed too. But the whole NPC interaction thing is just lame. The overall plot pretty shabby. Humans, even dull ones, just are way better at this sort of thing.

BGII gives me the sense that I'm in a cheezy fantasy novel. It's fun, stakes are nearby when I need to nail a vampire, monsters guard weapons they should use themselves, but I just can't take it very seriously. Which, for a computer game, is ok I guess.

It's not a replacement for Role Playing live, maybe it's not trying to be either. But it is a hell of a game, given its limitations.

[Anatres]

Did you play BG I? BG II has loads more depth!

Try NOX, or Revenant, or RAge of Mages (I & II), for linear, shallow unimaginative poop! (IMHO )

[Krom]

Originally posted by two:
Most of us have finished at least half of BGII. (right?) So how does it compare to real-life RPGing? Any ideas?

My opinion is that BGII absolutely nails the AD&D ruleset far better than a real-life human would/could. What DM actually looks at weapon speed? Calculates the exact radius of a stinking cloud? Allows fun tactics like run/arrow/run/arrow vs. stupid monsters, or backstabbing, or monster summoning? And BGII handles huge battles (50 goblins vs. 4 characters) wonderfully fast.

Depends on the DM. In my opinion, there will never be a replacement for a good tabletop RP session. I know several DMs (myself included) that figure in speed factor, area of effect, range effects of missle weapons, chances of hitting allies, partial cover, flanking and rear attacks, experience for successful use of skills/spells/abilities, weapon skills, good monster tactics, morale checks, material component/spellbook page limitations for mages, penalties for drinking too much, "uh oh" checks for male characters that get a little "too friendly" with tavern wenches/farmer's daughters (angry fathers also can become involved...heh heh), saving throw bonuses for having high stats (this is tricky, because it depends on the save), and much more.

Granted, this may sound like a lot, but once you've done it a few times, it's real easy. The hardest part is describing the picture you have in your mind to your players, so they are seeing the same thing. A lot of things also depend on the kind of fight you have. If it's just a random bunch of goblins/hobgoblins/ogres/etc, I won't necessarily be as picky about monster tactics as I would if the characters were facing a "major" battle (i.e. planned and not a filler).

BG2 does a great job of revitalizing the CRPG genre, which has become lazy with a bunch of regurgatated plots that would a PnP group to sleep in 5 minutes.

BG2 does suffer from some implementation bugs, which can be expected from a game as "complex" as this. However, this is to be expected from a computer game and goes back to my first paragraph about not being able to replace a good tabletop RP session.

[Jhareth of house Noquar]

@Krom- I started to type a reply, walked away from my desk for awhile, then discovered that you had already (not quite word for word...) expressed my thoughts perfectly.
BG2 is great, but simply cannot compare with the depth, attention to character development, and customizable plots of a pnp session with a good DM. I don't want to knock BG2 at all, as it is the best possible with the tech we have now. We'll need sentient computers to get anywhere near the pnp experience.

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Lil alurl velve zhah lil velkyn uss...
<^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^>
Your friendly neighborhood
Drow in Sunglasses,
Jhareth of house Noquar

[Cloud]

well hopefully never winter nights will help satisfy the craving you have for the originality that human input gives. I am really looking forward to nwn and the expansion pack for bg2

[Quitch]

Surely the main thing to note is that BG2 is a step forward? BG 1 showed the first ideas, BG2 has taken it even further forward. If there is to be a BG3 I think we can expect even more depth as the programming team get better and better at this.

NPC interactions are somewhat lacking, because as the game gets on there are more and more variables. The first dungeon I think showed what could really happen, where as later on the number of variables increases exponentially. A DM can cope by making up stuff on the fly, which the game can't do as it needs a script. However I disagree with the Romance part. Sorry, but having some male DM lean over and try to act out, say, the Jaheira romance just wouldn't work. They'd have to be really good, and even then, it's missing the soothing female voice, or the picture, or whatever it is that did it for you (if anything ). This is after all, the same person who will be giving out the cry of orcs in 5 minutes time..... Myself, I got a lot of enjoyment out of having adventured with these people for a whole two games (which involved hundreds of hours of play). Watching them fight, hearing them scream and shout, seeing them die and also watching as they ignore my commands going beserk over the death of a comrade.

A DM currently has the edge (by some way) in plot, interaction, and is way ahead in the little things (like getting over friendly with tavern wenches), because they can put these things in when they want, where they want, and you can try whatever you want. In a game you know the engines restricts you.

But in the end, I think the computer version will win out. Visualising is all well and good, but having the people there, in front of you, living, speaking and breathing, backed up by atmospheric music tracks, and beautiful visuals. Imagination can generate the scene, but the computer means it's really there in front of you, allowing your brain to concentration taking in the beauty of it all.

I'm sure someone will disagree.

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Quitch
"Well since you asked, I would like to register a complaint. I want to kill a dragon. Right now. No, don't look. Go kill one now. Go find one and kill it. Right now. That would be SO cool" - Lilarcor

[MistJaguar]

just wait till NeverWinter Nights come out, the way it's looking it should have the best of both worlds

------------------
"Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The farther you go, the less you know."
--Lao Tsu


[This message has been edited by MistJaguar (edited 02-12-2001).]

[Radek]

I think some heretics are needed.

BG2: grade C+

Why?
1. The game is highly unbalanced. Consider a spellcasting for example. Every spellmonger at every corner casts spells that can cause reloads: stun, hold-like spells, domination spells and so on. You cannot counter stuns at all (unless you are a berserker), you can counter hold/paralyze with ridiculously short-timed Free Action, you can counter domination but for a limited period of time because you have only a few level 5 spells available. What to do next? Rest after every battle? Isn't it silly? Note also that almost all spells cited above have area effect. Note also that monsters can cast Remove Magic like spells that can dispel your defenses. Let us summarize: a lot of combats is paper-stone-scissors like. BUM! The fascist is dead. BUM! You are dead. Okay, reload. From where do we know that?
2. Gigantic Expert Effect: Let us consider a Beginner who does not know what is waiting behind next corner and an Expert who knows it. We call the difference beween them the Expert Effect. Well, the Expert Effect is unavoidable and it is undesirable to remove it completely. But the Expert Effect must be kept in decent limits. Otherwise we get BG2: the Beginner will be finding out continually that he has memorized bad spells, that he does not have the necessary spells at all, that his equipment is unsufficient for him to survive. Blood, sweat and tears. Because you must know what is waiting behind next corner in BG2. Using your brains does not suffice in MANY situations.
3. Too many irritating moments. As an example, let us consider item identifying. You will need lore 50 at least to identify at least something. You will need lore at least 60 to identify ca 1/2 of unidentified items. Suppose you do not have a bard in your company. Your mage gets lore 50 at level 14 and lore 60 at level 17, i.e., at pretty high levels. Until then, you have the following possibilities: a) inventory full of unidentified items during a considerable part of the game; b) rest, identify, rest, identify,... - isn't it silly? c) pay for something that you should do yourself - isn't it silly?

That's why the grade cannot be better. The storyline does not help - RPGs aren't about storylines, they are about readiness for different types of opponents. And readiness for opponents is something that is really suppressed in BG2.

[Krom]

Originally posted by Quitch:
Surely the main thing to note is that BG2 is a step forward? BG 1 showed the first ideas, BG2 has taken it even further forward. If there is to be a BG3 I think we can expect even more depth as the programming team get better and better at this.

NPC interactions are somewhat lacking, because as the game gets on there are more and more variables. The first dungeon I think showed what could really happen, where as later on the number of variables increases exponentially. A DM can cope by making up stuff on the fly, which the game can't do as it needs a script. However I disagree with the Romance part. Sorry, but having some male DM lean over and try to act out, say, the Jaheira romance just wouldn't work. They'd have to be really good, and even then, it's missing the soothing female voice, or the picture, or whatever it is that did it for you (if anything ). This is after all, the same person who will be giving out the cry of orcs in 5 minutes time..... Myself, I got a lot of enjoyment out of having adventured with these people for a whole two games (which involved hundreds of hours of play). Watching them fight, hearing them scream and shout, seeing them die and also watching as they ignore my commands going beserk over the death of a comrade.

A DM currently has the edge (by some way) in plot, interaction, and is way ahead in the little things (like getting over friendly with tavern wenches), because they can put these things in when they want, where they want, and you can try whatever you want. In a game you know the engines restricts you.

But in the end, I think the computer version will win out. Visualising is all well and good, but having the people there, in front of you, living, speaking and breathing, backed up by atmospheric music tracks, and beautiful visuals. Imagination can generate the scene, but the computer means it's really there in front of you, allowing your brain to concentration taking in the beauty of it all.

I'm sure someone will disagree.

Yes, I definitely agree that BG2 has taken a step forward. However, there are a lot of things that cannot be simulated in BG2. For example, the fear of death is not in BG2. You have the ability to say, "Oh well, I lost that battle, so I'll just reload my saved game". You also have the ability to exploit programming flaws or use "cheesy" tactics to beat monsters.

In a PnP version, if you cast a cloudkill on a dragon that (for some odd reason) does not see you, it will get up and start pounding the crap out of you. Also, good DMs don't let their dragons sit there and get whooped inside their lair (with some exceptions of course).

Point is there will always be some sort of limitation on what you can do in a video game. Even in NWN. While NWN might allow much more diversity, will you ever have the chance to do something random like: build a house; go fishing; sleep on the floor; steal radishes from an NPC's garden. I know these sound strange, but these are the kind of random things players like to do. A crafty DM can often allow these things and use them as a springboard for an adventure.

As far as NPC romances, this is indeed a difficult thing. I was never able to master this, so consequently I allow the PC to figure out what happens. However, I have played in campaigns where the DM was able to pull it off well. It is better whenever you have a female player in the group and let the players RP romance dialog.

As far as mood, most DMs usually have some sort of mood music playing in the background (not too loud otherwise it takes away from the mood). Candles are good too when you need dim lighting.

Visualizing the world is the most complex part. For this, you will need to be completely relaxed, so gaming with a group of people you enjoy being around is a must. You also have to be there to play the game, not talk about old adventures, discuss the football game, or BS in general. There's nothing more frustrating for a DM than to be describing a scene and someone start talking about a past adventure and completely going off on a tangent.

This all sounds like a long and difficult process for a DM, but like anything, it just requires practice. Most of your good DMs will have most everything taken care of before players arrive. Within a few minutes of starting, the DM can have you hooked on the story and in character.

With a computer game, you have too many other factors that can take you out of the immersion. Perhaps your game is moving too slow, or you accidently dropped an item when rearranging your inventory (and consequently must load a game). Or, in the case of NWN, perhaps you lose your internet connection and get booted in the middle of an important part of a quest.

IMHO, you will never replace a good PnP gaming session. The sheer unpredicatability as well as a true sense of "danger" for the characters can't be replicated in a computer game.

[Quitch]

Now I must disagree with these comments on "you will never replace PnP" because of course you will. A DM is a human, relying on a human brain. What most people seem to forget is that the humanh brain is a machine, it has its limitations.

Of course, brains are well ahead of computers, and if I saw this situation change in my lifetime, I'd be very suprised, but change it shall. It's easier to build a machine than an organic brain for one.

However the real advantage of the game over the PnP, is that it hides all the dice. Nothing is worse than building up to a big fight, then suddenly out comes the dice, out goes the atmosphere.

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Quitch
"Well since you asked, I would like to register a complaint. I want to kill a dragon. Right now. No, don't look. Go kill one now. Go find one and kill it. Right now. That would be SO cool" - Lilarcor

[Krom]

Originally posted by Quitch:
Now I must disagree with these comments on "you will never replace PnP" because of course you will. A DM is a human, relying on a human brain. What most people seem to forget is that the humanh brain is a machine, it has its limitations.

Of course, brains are well ahead of computers, and if I saw this situation change in my lifetime, I'd be very suprised, but change it shall. It's easier to build a machine than an organic brain for one.

However the real advantage of the game over the PnP, is that it hides all the dice. Nothing is worse than building up to a big fight, then suddenly out comes the dice, out goes the atmosphere.

It all depends on how your DM runs fight. Yes, fights require dice rolls, but you can add an element of suspence to each roll by how you tell the story. As a player, there was only 1 fight that comes to mind that was ever boring, but that was due to other things going on in the group. As a DM, I only recall a couple "boring" fights, but that was also due to outside circumstances (i.e. one player cheating).

As far as the human mind vs. the machine, now we're getting into philosphy. A computer program that could silmulate the versatility of a good DM as well as allow a character to do anything in a game is a long ways off (anybody remember how long it took before we could finally break glass in a FPS?). I will agree that technology will probably progress that far, but I highly doubt that a computer program with that kind of versatility would be "geared" toward the CRPG community.

[MistJaguar]

Originally posted by Radek:
RPGs aren't about storylines, they are about readiness for different types of opponents. And readiness for opponents is something that is really suppressed in BG2.

wtf? if anything RPGs _are_ about the storyline and the interaction, not just which and how many monsters you can wack upside the head

------------------
"Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The farther you go, the less you know."
--Lao Tsu

[Radek]

That's why I used the term "opponent" and not the term "monster". Killing monsters is only a part of a good game. Another kinds of oppenents are traps, locked doors/chests, a dungeon as a whole, gaining an information, a spell cast on you and so on. I daresay we are too often forcibly unprepared for the opponents in BG2. In other cases we are forced to do things that do not fit our style (an example, you MUST have a thief in your party if you want to do something with traps - and you must do something with them because the game is overtrapped).
As an example, let us consider the spell system. Everybody casts Chaos or Domination on you. How long does it take it before you can cast Chaotic Commands on ALL your party?
It's a level 5 spell and you need 6 of them. In the late stage of the game? Yes, correct. And what about the course BEFORE the late stage? You cannot protect your party (forced unreadiness). You are forced to restart whenewer two confused members of your party are about to kill one another. A Dispel Magic spell? Well, you need a level higher by 10 with respect to the level of the caster. Suppose, the caster is level 8 (nothing unusual at all). You will need level 18... Well, you can try a prayer to your God while casting the spell but do not forget: those two are killing themselves and you have no time to cast again and again, moreover, you have only few Dispel Magic spells. Therefore: another example of forced unreadiness. We can demonstrate many such examples as far as BG2 is concerned.
I am convinced that forced unreadiness is typical for Doom-like stupidities and that a good RPG allows at least good readiness to any opponent in the game at any stage of the game. This does not mean that the opponents must be weak. This does not mean that you are prepared automatically. You must prepare your hero(es) for the opponents and you must prepare him carefuly. Any RPG is about preparation and readiness. The opponents are testing it.

[MistJaguar]

but that still doesn't account for your saying that the storyline is unimportant, which you completely avoided, the way you talked it sounds like you just wish a fantasy based single-party strategy game instead of a _role_playing game

------------------
"Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The farther you go, the less you know."
--Lao Tsu


[This message has been edited by MistJaguar (edited 02-14-2001).]

[two]

I'm glad the thread is getting some responses...

As I have mentioned in an earlier thread, I actually think BGII is way too EASY for even beginner players (like I was). For example I kept Mazzy, and by the time she got to the Drow city, with unexceptional magical weapons&armor, she and Misc could wipe out pretty much anything with no strategy involved. There is a shield that makes you immune to confusion by the way, also a helm I think, very useful. I won't finish BGII it has gotten too boring/no challenge. It's more fun when you can get beat!

Anyway back to this thread: of course a computer RPG is lame compared with a human DM, particularly with narrative and story-line. This is trivially true; the computer cannot change the story line, the human can. If the human wants to expand/contract the quest, he/she can. If she wants to put in something specific for a character or event, he/she can. If the characters are bored with the big quest he/she can concoct another one one the spot, or a fun sub-quest. With BGII it's always the same thing, same goal. Which may get boring. You don't have a choice.

As I said before, BGII is light fun, great at combat, totally true to the AD&D system (which is itself pretty cheezy -- I mean come on mages memorize spells individually every morning then forget them totally after casting, thieves cannot pick up a long sword, etc. Metal armor "hurts" magic users, etc. Game balance can be achieved through other means than arbitrary rules. Like a point system for spell casting, proficiencies with armor, etc.)

BGII is great but it's not an RPG I don't think. Or if it is, it is rudimentary, like playing with a pre-teen human DM who is VERY single-minded.

[Radek]

@MistJaguar: The storyline IS important but the storyline does not make the game an RPG. Where did I say the storyline is unimportant? Doom had a storyline (you saved the Earth!), nevertheless, Doom wasn't an RPG. Every good RPG must contain:
1. Readiness for opponents - and that's YOU who is responsible for it! You might decide to run a risk - but that's YOU who took such decision and that's YOU who will bear the consequences!
2. Character development - in fact, a part of readiness. Again, that's you who is controling the development and who is responsible for the reasonable development.
3. Interaction - gathering information allows you to be ready.
4. Fight - the general test of readiness.
5. Storyline - must be here because an RPG is, in fact, a fairy tale in which you have the decisive part.
Therefore, an RPG is something different from a "strategy game", even if a good strategy is extremely important in the RPG.
I must still insist on my statement that every RPG is about readiness first and foremost.

[Quitch]

I will agree that technology will probably progress that far, but I highly doubt that a computer program with that kind of versatility would be "geared" toward the CRPG community.

Now you're not being forward thinking. Just think back to the 60's, do you tink anyone thought back then that those machines that only groups such as the military had, that filled houses, would one day be thrashed in terms of performance, by machines that the public owned, and fitted on a desk?

Of course not, and I don't see why a similar situation can't exist in the future. The brain is of course a coded machine. It makes decisions, we have free will, but we still send around electrical impulses to make things happen. There is no difference.

Unless you're religious, but I'm not wandering off down that road.

Oh, and I feel that RPGs are very much about storylines, not fights. An RPG is in effect, an escape from reality, the chance to be someone else. That's what taking on a role is. A major part of RPG is believing in your enviroment, and believing, and even caring for, the people around you. This can't be done without some founding reason which drives you one from locations to location, fight to fight, and brings the group together. Without the story an RPG is nothing.

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Quitch
"Well since you asked, I would like to register a complaint. I want to kill a dragon. Right now. No, don't look. Go kill one now. Go find one and kill it. Right now. That would be SO cool" - Lilarcor

[This message has been edited by Quitch (edited 02-14-2001).]

[Kieran_Frost]

Baldur's Gate II is like a revamp of the first game. Firstly your quests are cancelled off each time you complete one, THANK GOD. Did you play Baldur's Gate I? Try running through 20 pages of wuests just to find one you haven't done. Also with your journel the same information isn't put down twice. The number of times I had, "somethings scaring the town's folk", plus, WHICH TOWN'S FOLK (I have issues).
Second, how cool is 'annotated maps' = VERY.
You can add your own personal choices and more spots. I have dark purple = faviote spot, red = danger, orange = abandoned and grey = exit. It helps filter through a map and area really quickly.
Overall it's better in nearly every way. I love the dreams, the dialogue, the questions from NPC's, no matter how many times it hapens (I know, is this guy for really) Plus stronghold and bags. A blessing. The number of scrolls and books I carried arounf, just in case, in Baldur's Gate I, I could tell you stories

Kieran_Frost

[Quitch]

I must agree, especially on the issue of the journal. Thank God!

It's suprising just how replayable it is though, just choose a few different NPCs, and the game can be very different, the different interactions are always good fun.

Actually, the only really annoying thing about the game (other than the fact that the Jaheira romance is flakey, and the game is generally too easy), is that there's no way you can do everything, so I'll always be left wondering things like "What if I'd been a Druid and owned their stronghold......"

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Quitch
"Well since you asked, I would like to register a complaint. I want to kill a dragon. Right now. No, don't look. Go kill one now. Go find one and kill it. Right now. That would be SO cool" - Lilarcor

[L]

Bad = can't play it.
Good = I don't know yet.