Why Kensai/Mage?

Firecc · Post by **Firecc** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:06 am

I have seen many posts on this forum under other topic debating why or why not one should play kensai/mage from a role playing perspective. I am curious to know if you people have a good explaination why you play kensai/mage.

I have given this matter some thought, wondering what makes a kensai. Well, I figured a kensai strives to be the best melee figher ever. To excell in one particular weapon. To be the best fighter ever that person needs to be very focused and determined (high int). A trained body to endure the battlefield (mainly dex, con and perhaps str).

After many hours of pondering the matter I came to the conclusion that a TRUE kensai would never touch magic. That would be cheating and not portray the true skill of a swordsman. Thus a TRUE kensai would never use any magical items (except potions since I don't consider them magical).

The problem is that a kensai not wielding magical weapons is soon a dead kensai.
I think a TRUE kensai should have the same attributes as a Monk i.e. to be able to hit monsters "hitable" only by magical weapons and not able to dualclass. Like a mage they live for but one thing. But, well, it is not done like that so... In my opinon there is no kensai in BGII, just a kensai cheese kit.

And no, a monk is not a kensai. A monk is driven by a philosofical/religious cause,

not the will to become no.1 in fighting. I would love to play a TRUE kensai.

I have a kensai in my multiplayer party who I will later turn into a kensai/mage.
My reason?
My kensai wants to be the best fighter ever. After a while when the kensai gets more experienced and see's more of the world he/she will get to know magic. With magic a person can be invulnerable to both melee and magic.
My kensai in thus no TRUE kensai. I want to use the Celestial Fury for one thing and if the goal is to become the best fighter ever I believe a kensai would use magic. Wizards also needs to be very focused and determined. The diference in attitude is not to far apart.

Your "excuse" for playing the kensai/mage?

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:17 am

Because i love spellcasting (and mage in particular) and i also like the opportunity of using some of the items you find in the game.....so the kensai/mage is good for both purposes.....

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 10:38 am

Just doesn't look like you'd have time to devote yourself totaly to the art of combat to spend any time researching spells.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 11:20 am

Does this idea of a "true" Kensai originate from PnP? The SoA manual says this about Kensai:

This class is also known as the “Sword Saint”, and consists of a warrior
who has been specially trained to be one with his sword. They are deadly,
fast and trained to fight without encumbrance.

Two lines. Nothing more. Not much to go on if you're looking for a roleplaying angle. Leaves just about everything to the player. In fact, this is exactly the amount of description that pure powergamers need.

It does not say, for example, that Kensai disciplined (or honorable). Monks are supposedly restricted to Lawful alignments because "their training requires strict discipline" (a quote from the 3E PHB). It also doesn't say that Kensai don't like magic. All it says is they are attuned to their swords and fight without armor.

I take such lack of description as carte blanche to fill in whatever I like. The "I want to be the best, and it takes magic to do that" line suits me fine.

<RANT>

Declining obvious power seems like a good way to get killed more easily. Any reasonably intelligent person would have to have either a deathwish or a very compelling reason not to embrace that kind of advantage. If anyone thinks a "true" Kensai stands so much as a snowball's chance in hell against a Kensai-Mage, please enlighten me.

</RANT>

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 11:43 am

preface - i don't care what type of char you use or how you play your game. if the km is fun for you to play by all means go for it.

the kensai datea back to the oriental adventures handbook for 1st edition.

it's much different, and shares more than a few similarities w/ the monk.

a) kenasi cannot use magic weapons, they get a similar bonus to monks to offset this. ie. swords get a non magical / magical bonus as they level up.
b) kensai are always practice their sword play 2 hrs / day. if they don't they lose their skills.
c) again no armour
d) they are very big on duels, to advance to the next level they must defeat a higher level kensai.
e) if they don't use a paticular weapon they don't get full xp.
f) honor is very important, (it's kind of like reputation but much more involved)
there's more i'm going from memory here...
-----
now of course many of these rules are not implemented as they are too restrictive to be used, (like d) and some are kinda silly (e).

would a kensai mage always defeat a straight kensai? of course, since the km can fight just as well & has the advantage of magical spells.

now with that background, rules b,e,+ f really disqualify the km combo imo. the sticking point for me is that the novice km wouldn't have time to sleep w/ all the adventuring / learing spells & practice swordplay. and the time lag from the time he / she becomes a mage to when fighting skills return would lead to a loss of the enhanced fighting skill.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 11:43 am

Me and my brother were discussing Cheese in the game a bit, and we got onto the topic of Kensai-Mages. He came up with the explanation that for the first part of you're life, you devote yourself entirely to the sword, then later, your obsessive-compulsive disorder shifts to mage-craft

Angelus · Post by **Angelus** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:13 pm

Originally posted by Scott:
... then later, your obsessive-compulsive disorder shifts to mage-craft

Wouldn't that negate the possibility of becoming a kensai in the first place, what with "their training requires strict discipline" and things like that?

After reading the AD&D rules on the kensai and the game description, I believe the kensai was created as a duell fighter whose honor doesn't allow him to use magic.
AD&D makes some adjustments wich make it possible for him to hit high level monsters and in BG2 you can use magic weapons and rings etc.

Personaly I don't see a reason for a kensai to quit his studies of swordfighting and become a mage instead, short of a very dramatic event which changes the course of his live completely.

Robert Lee Phillips · Post by **Robert Lee Phillips** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 1:02 pm

Play with whatever class you enjoy! If you you want to play as a bard with questionable sexual orientation & grand mastery in show tunes & skirt wearing, go ahead. I'll play with the old super-cheese K/M and kick a**!

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 2:32 pm

Originally posted by koz-ivan:
now with that background, rules b,e,+ f really disqualify the km combo imo. the sticking point for me is that the novice km wouldn't have time to sleep w/ all the adventuring / learing spells & practice swordplay. and the time lag from the time he / she becomes a mage to when fighting skills return would lead to a loss of the enhanced fighting skill.

A very good point. I never saw the PnP rules, but now I can see (though still not understand) why some people get obsessive about Kensai/Mages.

I see the BG series as fundamentally different from PnP. The designers have taken liberties with the D&D world to create a game that is (in their eyes) more balanced. I do not feel the need to stick to PnP, but would rather go with the flow and play the game the way it was designed.

Bards cannot fast-talk, Thieves cannot climb, Rangers cannot talk to animals, Mages cannot scribe scrolls, Teleport or fly. Kensai are so different from PnP that they might as well have given the Kit a different name.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:55 pm

any one have 2nd or 3rd edition stats on the pnp kensai? does such a thing exist it's not a kit listed in the complete ftr's handbook.

that is really strange, unless i'm missing something there are no 2nd edition rules for the kensai - no wonder it's all out of wack.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 8:24 pm

Firstly - have fun - do it your way, whatever that is.

>>Rant mode on<<
The peicemeal adoption of the inconsistencies introduced into the PnP game by the Oriental Adventures book has long been a source of concern for PnP DnD fanatics. Much of the material released at this time introduced very large imbalances in a game which is complex largely in an attempt to remove such imbalances. As a DM I have always taken a very hard line with these sort of things. If a player insisted on having the 'right' to play a Kensai I would ask them where in my fantasy world they became one? No answer, no character.

The Katana is a joke both in PnP and BG 1,2. In a completely oriental setting O.K. maybe the Katana is the Uber-sword, but in a 'middle earth' setting what makes an elven long sword crafted over centuries by the finest craft-elves suddenly only 1-8 in comparason to the 1-12 (because it is so exquisitly well made) Katana?

The above is off track but highlights the problem with all these now supposedly 'core' additions.

<<Rant mode off>>

All power to BG1 and 2 in attempting to implement so many variants available in PnP. The Kensai/Mage remains the province of the person who has permanently set roleplay to zero. - Curdis

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 11:54 pm

I don't think I have the right to call "x,y,z" cheesy but if I were a PnP DM I would allow a Kensai as kit under the monk class. And I would restrict Monk class to single class only. I would also include a MAJUTSU as kit under the same class. That way you would have the generic Monk, you would have the "fighter"( Kensai ) and you would have the "Mage" ( Majutsu). To add some real fantasy I would have a druid-type figure who could turn into a fire/earth/air elemental; "GENSO" is the most appropriate title I could find!?

Don't get me wrong, the BG series is perhaps the best gaming series ever and we've had so much fun with the game. But since we are talking PnP, this is what I would like to see/do.

White Rabbit · Post by **White Rabbit** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 12:54 am

Have any of you guys thought about getting jobs or anything? Do you realize that this is just a video game? Don't get me wrong bg2 and tob are great games which I play frequently but don't you guys think analyzing the devotion of a peticular sub-class of character is a little over the top?

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 1:09 am

Originally posted by White Rabbit:
Have any of you guys thought about getting jobs or anything? Do you realize that this is just a video game? Don't get me wrong bg2 and tob are great games which I play frequently but don't you guys think analyzing the devotion of a peticular sub-class of character is a little over the top?

Words like "thrones" and "grass houses" spring to mind

Laurelei · Post by **Laurelei** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:37 pm

I wish I knew how to do quotes, but I don't. However, this one by Sly One Mr. Grinch--Play with whatever class you enjoy! If you you want to play as a bard with questionable sexual orientation & grand mastery in show tunes & skirt wearing, go ahead. I'll play with the old super-cheese K/M and kick a**!

ROFL! I'm at work and laughing my ass off, I hope noone asks what I'm doing

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:21 pm

Let me see if I understand the reasoning against Kensai and Kensai/Mage......

This is a fantasy character/class that has no place in the 'real' setting of a fantasy game.

OOOHHHHHKKKAAAAYYYYYY.....

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 4:34 pm

Originally posted by White Rabbit:
Have any of you guys thought about getting jobs or anything? Do you realize that this is just a video game? Don't get me wrong bg2 and tob are great games which I play frequently but don't you guys think analyzing the devotion of a peticular sub-class of character is a little over the top?

While this strikes me as a classic troll (not a classic fantasy world troll - that is) Yes I have a job and I run a business too. I believe the words PnP fanatic did appear in my post. If you want to NOT role play in a CRPG fine your choice. I play these CRPGs because I accidentally got a life and can't devote the days, hours etc. to playing real RPGs with a bunch of other lunatics.

Originally posted by Antarese
Let me see if I understand the reasoning against Kensai and Kensai/Mage.. This is a fantasy character/class that has no place in the 'real' setting of a fantasy game. OOOHHHHHKKKAAAAYYYYYY.....

Ah the false dicotomy. Does Fantasy necessarily include all of the possible fantasies ever? Hmm. If you wanna be a munchkin and choose the be a paladin cause they get a nifty -2 on saves and then slap around innocents and pay to restore your reputation - your game - your call, but perhaps this fantasy setting isn't the one you would most enjoy.

I suppose as Firecc orginally asked for any good explanations on why you would play a kensai mage I am obliged to observe that the only ones given to date are:
It's a game get over it.
If I wanna be a munchkin I can.
Happy it generated some heat, light, and laughter - Curdis

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 4:35 pm

From my perspective, I've played a kensai/mage in two of my four run-throughs. I didn't do it for any powerplaying (which people who post here regularly will know is hardly my goal). I did it because I like playing warrior mages--did so, in Daggerfall, and in very old GemStone, pre-AOL days, and in DragonRealms. I like a mage whose magic is attuned to war and battle, so my mage hefts a longsword.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 6:05 pm

Originally posted by Fable:
I did it because I like playing warrior mages

And fair enough. As the Kensai kit is available and so obviously fits the role on abilities/restrictions it is the one to go for.

In fairness to Firecc's original question though, the additional benefits which a Kensai recieves when coupled with spell ability make the class combination pretty munchkin like. The Kensai benefits are supposedly confered to a fighter kit as a consequence of a very special devotion to a regime of training and ethics which would exclude the special devotion to a regime of training and study which a mage requires.

The game does not constrain you to be a Kensai/Mage if you wish to be a spellsword. You can be a (nonhuman) fighter/mage (no kits) or a (human) dualed fighter/mage - mage/fighter. The game does constrain you so you can't be a barbarian/mage or paladin/mage and the same reasoning used for these restrictions sits very well against the Kensai.

So with all due respect Fable your answer appears to be a slight variation on "If I wanna be a munchkin I can". - Curdis

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 8:12 pm

Curdis writes:
So with all due respect Fable your answer appears to be a slight variation on "If I wanna be a munchkin I can"./

If I wanna is an important phrase. I've never used the kensai ability. On the other hand, by choosing a kensai/mage, I'm not tempted to wear armor, and I can't cast missiles--my GemStone mage never did.

I fully accept the penalties of the kensai class, in other words, and take only the benefit of the extra weapons training. My warrior mage is simply a mage who's extremely good with a sword, and that's what I wanted.