This comparison is made at end game, maximum potential, including equipment. I am using a dual-wielding fighter for this comparison.
HPs:
Monk: 9d8+62
Fighter: 9d10+93
Advantage: Fighter
Level:
Monk: 40
Fighter: 40
Advantage: Neither
Max magical equiv.:
Monk: +4 weapons
Fighter: +6 weapons
Advantage: Fighter
Thac0:
Monk: -12 or so
Fighter: -15 or so
Advantage: Fighter
# of attacks:
Monk: 4
Fighter: 4
Advantage: Neither
AC:
Monk: -16
Fighter: -11
Advantage: Monk
Ranged combat:
Monk: none
Fighter: all
Advantage: Fighter
Special Abilities:
Monk: quivering palm, stunning blow, magic res
Fighter: none
Advantage: Monk
High Level Abilities:
Monk: all except magic res.
Fighter: all
Advantage: Fighter
Immunities:
Monk: charm, disease, poison
Fighter: charm, disease, poison, level drain, a hundred other things you might want to add from weapons.
Advantage: Fighter
OK, now, what's the reason to be a monk again? *scratches his head*
You're really going to sacrifice all of that for a couple points of AC, quivering palm, and magic resistance? Plain vanilla fighter...
Any thoughts/responses?
Monk vs. Fighter
Monks can use darts, slings, throwing daggers, not sure what your "Ranged" category refers to, but probably fighters have the advantage there as well since monks can't use bows.
Monks can also hide (a skill I used a lot with my monk) and detect traps (although without the ability to disarm them this skill is somewhat useless imo)
Natural magic resistance is a nice advantage. Some folks who prefer the monk might put different "weights" on some of the categories you listed, and decide that one ability alone outweighs all the advantages you listed for the fighter...
Monks CAN use many of the +6 weapons, it just so happens that they also have a very versatile weapon that requires NO weapons. Depending on how you choose to use it, this weapon can deal out instant death (Quivering Palm), stun your opponent, etc. etc. Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with the Gauntlets of Crushing your attack and damage are raised by 4. Doesn't this make your fists the equivalent of a +8 weapon at higher levels? If so, that turns the advantage table there a bit....
In the end, I think it's kind of a moot argument, just like saying "Mages are better than fighters" or "Clerics are better than fighters", or even "Thieves are better than fighters", it's a matter of personal choice. Mages probably ARE better than fighters, but even in PnP D&D I always went more for the hack and slash type, it just seemed to fit my personality better. The various choices of kits and classes will appeal to different players for different reasons, from the roleplay to the practical. I love my monk for many of the same reasons that I love to play hack and slash types, and I also love her because she's just a little bit different from the standard "clanking around in platemail" tank.
Monks can also hide (a skill I used a lot with my monk) and detect traps (although without the ability to disarm them this skill is somewhat useless imo)
Natural magic resistance is a nice advantage. Some folks who prefer the monk might put different "weights" on some of the categories you listed, and decide that one ability alone outweighs all the advantages you listed for the fighter...
Monks CAN use many of the +6 weapons, it just so happens that they also have a very versatile weapon that requires NO weapons. Depending on how you choose to use it, this weapon can deal out instant death (Quivering Palm), stun your opponent, etc. etc. Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with the Gauntlets of Crushing your attack and damage are raised by 4. Doesn't this make your fists the equivalent of a +8 weapon at higher levels? If so, that turns the advantage table there a bit....
In the end, I think it's kind of a moot argument, just like saying "Mages are better than fighters" or "Clerics are better than fighters", or even "Thieves are better than fighters", it's a matter of personal choice. Mages probably ARE better than fighters, but even in PnP D&D I always went more for the hack and slash type, it just seemed to fit my personality better. The various choices of kits and classes will appeal to different players for different reasons, from the roleplay to the practical. I love my monk for many of the same reasons that I love to play hack and slash types, and I also love her because she's just a little bit different from the standard "clanking around in platemail" tank.
a good analysis but you forgot a few things.
Ranged combat for monks do include slings and darts. Though they can't use bow and arrows, I don't think you can grant an advantage to either.
High level abilities are the same for the monk and fighter. The reason why they don't have magic resistence is because it is useless to a monk. The magic resistance ability SETS it 50. This means that it WOULD DECREASE a monks resistence that is above 50. Hence, no advantage is gained here for a fighter. As for quivering palm, I guess you don't know how useful it is to kill a dragon in one blow, even if it doesn't hit. (they still have to make a save against the spell)
You also forgot that monks cannot be slowed or hasted. Yet, they gain speed factors for levels they progress. Hence, movementwise they are always hasted. As for other added immunities, they too can be acquired through rings, ioun stones, belts and the like. In this case, I would grant the advantage to Monks.
Magic resistence also can be over 100 which means that for most spells they are monks are immune.
Monks also cannot be harmed by non-magical weapons, something a fighter can be harmed by. In SoA this matters. Not so much in ToB.
Monks also have the stealth and detect trap abilites. Something a fighter does not have.
Lastly, a monk will be able to carry more in the inventory because he/she is not weighed down by heavy armor.
Oh, and one more thing, you are comparing fighters and monks. Monks are not fighters in the techincal sense, although are used as such. There is a difference how ever so slight.
Ranged combat for monks do include slings and darts. Though they can't use bow and arrows, I don't think you can grant an advantage to either.
High level abilities are the same for the monk and fighter. The reason why they don't have magic resistence is because it is useless to a monk. The magic resistance ability SETS it 50. This means that it WOULD DECREASE a monks resistence that is above 50. Hence, no advantage is gained here for a fighter. As for quivering palm, I guess you don't know how useful it is to kill a dragon in one blow, even if it doesn't hit. (they still have to make a save against the spell)
You also forgot that monks cannot be slowed or hasted. Yet, they gain speed factors for levels they progress. Hence, movementwise they are always hasted. As for other added immunities, they too can be acquired through rings, ioun stones, belts and the like. In this case, I would grant the advantage to Monks.
Magic resistence also can be over 100 which means that for most spells they are monks are immune.
Monks also cannot be harmed by non-magical weapons, something a fighter can be harmed by. In SoA this matters. Not so much in ToB.
Monks also have the stealth and detect trap abilites. Something a fighter does not have.
Lastly, a monk will be able to carry more in the inventory because he/she is not weighed down by heavy armor.
Oh, and one more thing, you are comparing fighters and monks. Monks are not fighters in the techincal sense, although are used as such. There is a difference how ever so slight.
The reason I started this thread was because I really wanted to play the class, and obviously I don't see how to do it that makes it better than a fighter in any aspect other than the magic resistance. As to the +6 weapons, I was thinking that if I wielded one of those, my # of attacks is reduced to 1. Correct me if I'm wrong there? And slings/darts seriously deal damage?
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: Scott ]
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: Scott ]
Since the Monk is considered a priest class rather than a fighter, monks can us scrolls. not mention their naturally immunties allow you more freedom with items. Stunning blow is an asset. I killed a balor by myself. given the right equipment a monk can be a walking death machine. Right no my monk has a -11 thaco and a -6 Ac with 93 % magic resistance. not mention I carry daystar for those pesky undead. Not mention the thrill of chunking powerful beings with my bare hands. heck I even killed a dragon with one blow
" If they are dead before they hit me, why do I need armor"- an unknown monk
-
ReignsOfPower
Are you refering to the cloak of mirroring?
Anyhow, not as usefull as it seems, plus it`s only usefull against character directed damage spells.
I will list all advantages of a monk, can your 2weapons and armor better them? (most other items are usable by both clases)
-Speed (as per boots of speed or faster even)
-Mag res (a lot, around 78% I think)
-Quivering palm, stunning blow
-Immunity to: disease, poison, charm, slow &
haste, normal weapons.
-GREAT AC
-Hide in shadows & detect traps
-Top that with two very good monk only items
(albeit you can only use one)
-Lay on hands
If you think a few HP`s and your weapons abilities can top this, then yes, a fighter is better. If your answer is no, well then... there you go. Give us your opinion.
Examine this list and you will find that the monk is the most independant character around
(be it single or dual)
I mean... if I`ve chosen it, it must be REAL good... (ups, there goes my ego again...)
Anyhow, not as usefull as it seems, plus it`s only usefull against character directed damage spells.
I will list all advantages of a monk, can your 2weapons and armor better them? (most other items are usable by both clases)
-Speed (as per boots of speed or faster even)
-Mag res (a lot, around 78% I think)
-Quivering palm, stunning blow
-Immunity to: disease, poison, charm, slow &
haste, normal weapons.
-GREAT AC
-Hide in shadows & detect traps
-Top that with two very good monk only items
(albeit you can only use one)
-Lay on hands
If you think a few HP`s and your weapons abilities can top this, then yes, a fighter is better. If your answer is no, well then... there you go. Give us your opinion.
Examine this list and you will find that the monk is the most independant character around
(be it single or dual)
I mean... if I`ve chosen it, it must be REAL good... (ups, there goes my ego again...)
I am "the one", "the chosen"...
Speed - well, you said it, boots of speedOriginally posted by Koren:
<STRONG>Are you refering to the cloak of mirroring?
Anyhow, not as usefull as it seems, plus it`s only usefull against character directed damage spells.
I will list all advantages of a monk, can your 2weapons and armor better them? (most other items are usable by both clases)
-Speed (as per boots of speed or faster even)
-Mag res (a lot, around 78% I think)
-Quivering palm, stunning blow
-Immunity to: disease, poison, charm, slow &
haste, normal weapons.
-GREAT AC
-Hide in shadows & detect traps
-Top that with two very good monk only items
(albeit you can only use one)
-Lay on hands
If you think a few HP`s and your weapons abilities can top this, then yes, a fighter is better. If your answer is no, well then... there you go. Give us your opinion.
</STRONG>
Magic res - cloak of mirroring, pretty sure this works for all area effect spells as well
Quivering palm & stunning blow - decapitation weapons, stunning weapons
Immunities - there are a ton of weapons that give immune charm, ring of gaxx is immune poison/disease, there's armor that gives immune normal weapons, probably wouldn't use that though.
Great AC? How's that? A warrior with a shield can get much better.
Hide in shadows/detect traps. Potions of invis, can't get detect traps tho..
Two very good monk only items, heh, a million fighter useable kickass items.
Lay on hands.. well, potions of superior healing come close, can be used a lot more, and don't get interrupted.
Nope, cloak of mirroring does`t reflect area spells (have you ever seen a fireball bouncing back?)
Ring of gax is also usable by monks, as are most "fighter kickass" items (fighter usable, not fighter only, therfore monk usable also).
It is true that many weapons give better abilities than the monk, but all in one/two weapons (I think not), so unless you can quadruple weild you will have to choose only some abilities.
Besides, can your figter sneak up behind a mage and quiver/stun him? Nope!
Also, not needing boots of speed will alow you to make yet another party member faster, and equip say, Gargoyle boots (2 stoneskins+ backstab immunity)
Ring of gax is also usable by monks, as are most "fighter kickass" items (fighter usable, not fighter only, therfore monk usable also).
It is true that many weapons give better abilities than the monk, but all in one/two weapons (I think not), so unless you can quadruple weild you will have to choose only some abilities.
Besides, can your figter sneak up behind a mage and quiver/stun him? Nope!
Also, not needing boots of speed will alow you to make yet another party member faster, and equip say, Gargoyle boots (2 stoneskins+ backstab immunity)
I am "the one", "the chosen"...
Fighter items - i was talking about weapons/armor, and yes, you can get all of those abilities from 1 or 2 weapons.
Cloak of mirroring - yes, it does not reflect any more, it absorbs. It absorbs even area spells (doesn't help party members, but makes the char with it on immune).
Boots of speed - need to give them to someone else?! By the time you leave Saradush in ToB, you will have 6 perm haste items.
Sneak up behind a mage - potions of invis. Anything that doesn't work for, hiding/sneaking won't work either.
Cloak of mirroring - yes, it does not reflect any more, it absorbs. It absorbs even area spells (doesn't help party members, but makes the char with it on immune).
Boots of speed - need to give them to someone else?! By the time you leave Saradush in ToB, you will have 6 perm haste items.
Sneak up behind a mage - potions of invis. Anything that doesn't work for, hiding/sneaking won't work either.
Scott:
the cloak of mirrioring doesnt begin to compare with monks magic resist, its only good for direct damage spells , and honestly i think only gauth's and beholders even use direct damage spells. The monk resist is good for damn near anything. No spell of any kind can match 100% magic resistance, not even close.
Also if you get the guantlets of crushing , the monk will have at least as good a THAC0 as a fighter.
The party i took through bg2-Tob included a half orc bezerker (maxed hps) and a monk (maxed) , when i completed the game i had them duel each other a bunch of times, the result was that the monk won nearly every time unless vorpal hit . The bezerker had crom fear and axe of the unyeilding and around 200 hps, monk was about 140 i think. Monk can also totally resist saravoks deathbringer assault, just as an example of the MR in action.
the cloak of mirrioring doesnt begin to compare with monks magic resist, its only good for direct damage spells , and honestly i think only gauth's and beholders even use direct damage spells. The monk resist is good for damn near anything. No spell of any kind can match 100% magic resistance, not even close.
Also if you get the guantlets of crushing , the monk will have at least as good a THAC0 as a fighter.
The party i took through bg2-Tob included a half orc bezerker (maxed hps) and a monk (maxed) , when i completed the game i had them duel each other a bunch of times, the result was that the monk won nearly every time unless vorpal hit . The bezerker had crom fear and axe of the unyeilding and around 200 hps, monk was about 140 i think. Monk can also totally resist saravoks deathbringer assault, just as an example of the MR in action.
There you go then, a 25 str bezerker with another of the best weapons in the game getting wooped by a monk (who isn`t supposed to be a tank anyway). Need more proof?
Good stuff Lykwid...
...Ah...sorry `bout the cloak, didn`t know, but the mag res is still better.
By the way Scott, you mentioned 1 OR 2 weapons, gimmie 1 with more/better abilities
(remember Carsomyr is pally only...well,or thief) The mag res almost outweighs anything...
Good stuff Lykwid...
...Ah...sorry `bout the cloak, didn`t know, but the mag res is still better.
By the way Scott, you mentioned 1 OR 2 weapons, gimmie 1 with more/better abilities
(remember Carsomyr is pally only...well,or thief) The mag res almost outweighs anything...
I am "the one", "the chosen"...
A few things I forgot to mention...
Better saving throws for monks...
6 speedy items?
Amulet of the cheetah...not that much faster, and there are better uses out there for your amulet slot.
Grandmaster leather, anyone that can wear that can also wear white dragon scale... and who would you give it to anyway?, thief NPCs are all mage related and Valygar`s a front line fighter and needs good AC...
Better saving throws for monks...
6 speedy items?
Amulet of the cheetah...not that much faster, and there are better uses out there for your amulet slot.
Grandmaster leather, anyone that can wear that can also wear white dragon scale... and who would you give it to anyway?, thief NPCs are all mage related and Valygar`s a front line fighter and needs good AC...
I am "the one", "the chosen"...
5 boots of speed (you get 2 in SoA, 3 from Saradush) and yes, grandmaster armor. White dragonscale is better on a fighter than a thief, despite the ability to use thief abilities, and any PC character that is a thief would use grandmaster armor.
I would like to re-iterate that my purpose for this thread was not to bash monks, but a way to argue out their strengths, so that I can see how they would be better at playing the game than a vanilla fighter.
I love their magic resistance, and I'm sticking with the monk class. Just trying to pull out the strengths. As far as I can tell, magic resistance and stunning/quivering palm is it, even after everyone has posted in defense of the class.
I would like to re-iterate that my purpose for this thread was not to bash monks, but a way to argue out their strengths, so that I can see how they would be better at playing the game than a vanilla fighter.
I love their magic resistance, and I'm sticking with the monk class. Just trying to pull out the strengths. As far as I can tell, magic resistance and stunning/quivering palm is it, even after everyone has posted in defense of the class.