Monk vs. Fighter
Part of the advantage of Monk is that because he has the natural abilties he is more flexible with items, instead of choosing items the give immunities and such, one can use items that add thaco, and Ac. Thus giving the other items ot members of your party. Besides not being slowed is handy, and the cloak of reflection does not affect area affect spells, like cloud kill and Horrid Wilting.
" If they are dead before they hit me, why do I need armor"- an unknown monk
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Dimensional
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I would just like to point out that monks are approximatly ballanced to fighters at the end of TOB only and i emphasise only because they monk loses some of it's most powerful abilities in TOB
1. No. of attaks - This stops increasing after SOA - By lvl 40 it should be 8 attacks per round, all the time. this is much better than any fighter
2. decreased/capped magic resistance - nice monk resistance is in TOB it should be better
actualy i feel the monk is a bit of a waste in TOB due to the fact that he is considered a fighter fo special abilities - i was looking forward to /hoping for some monk specific special abilities . (ah well )
still like playing them , cool but not the crouchiing tiger hidden dragon type uber martial artist i was anticipating
1. No. of attaks - This stops increasing after SOA - By lvl 40 it should be 8 attacks per round, all the time. this is much better than any fighter
2. decreased/capped magic resistance - nice monk resistance is in TOB it should be better
actualy i feel the monk is a bit of a waste in TOB due to the fact that he is considered a fighter fo special abilities - i was looking forward to /hoping for some monk specific special abilities . (ah well )
still like playing them , cool but not the crouchiing tiger hidden dragon type uber martial artist i was anticipating
They say to truly understand reality one must learn to think in Seven Dimensions
Understand there is no chaos - Only a pattern to large for your mind to grasp
Understand there is no chaos - Only a pattern to large for your mind to grasp
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ReignsOfPower
Originally posted by Dimentional.
Maybe these Monk specific abilities where originally to be included in ToB, but were left out of the final version...Who Knows?
Same here. I was surpried to find out than when I fought Balthazar he scouted out calls like "DRAGON FIST!" and a massive white hand flew out (just like bigbys) and hit me for a considerable ammount of damage.actualy i feel the monk is a bit of a waste in TOB due to the fact that he is considered a fighter fo special abilities - i was looking forward to /hoping for some monk specific special abilities . (ah well )
Maybe these Monk specific abilities where originally to be included in ToB, but were left out of the final version...Who Knows?
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Silvanerian
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I think that a fighter can be just as good as a monk. Both classes has their advantages, but using the right equipment you can match the other class' "natural" advantages. Or at least get something that match it in battle prowers.
For instance. IF you want the ultimate fighter, (capable of handling almost every situation), you could keep all the monsterspecific weapons.
In my experince I've encountered weapons and other equipment that when I got it, I just thought "hmm...this sword (or whatever) was specifically made for battling eg undead" or dragons or whatever.
So, if you want to compare the two classes as which is best at completing the game I would say, that it's fairly even.
Monks got some advantages (MR q. p. and stun - (but hey - how many of those do you have in a day, and how often wil a level 20+ character with all the right equipment fail the save? (I know you've whacked dragons, but still. I've flesh - to- stoned them also - just took a couple of tries)) but so does the fighter.
Oh...about the monks are underrated in ToB....if they should follow the AD&D rules, the monks' fists doesn't get better then +3. Just think about that for a while.
Anyway, I never play as a monk, as it doesn't fit into my playing style. I have supreme difficulty having fun playing a monk, as I really can't see how he fits in my perception of the game.
But that's just me, anyway.
-Silvanerian
For instance. IF you want the ultimate fighter, (capable of handling almost every situation), you could keep all the monsterspecific weapons.
In my experince I've encountered weapons and other equipment that when I got it, I just thought "hmm...this sword (or whatever) was specifically made for battling eg undead" or dragons or whatever.
So, if you want to compare the two classes as which is best at completing the game I would say, that it's fairly even.
Monks got some advantages (MR q. p. and stun - (but hey - how many of those do you have in a day, and how often wil a level 20+ character with all the right equipment fail the save? (I know you've whacked dragons, but still. I've flesh - to- stoned them also - just took a couple of tries)) but so does the fighter.
Oh...about the monks are underrated in ToB....if they should follow the AD&D rules, the monks' fists doesn't get better then +3. Just think about that for a while.
Anyway, I never play as a monk, as it doesn't fit into my playing style. I have supreme difficulty having fun playing a monk, as I really can't see how he fits in my perception of the game.
But that's just me, anyway.
-Silvanerian
Qualis Artefix Pereo
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Dimensional
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@Silveranian
I was not refering to True AD&D rules but rather to the initialy Monk abilities as set down by bioware In SOA like many abilities which get better with level thse became unbalanced at the rediculously high levels of TOB and had to be toned down. any class if all abilities wre allowed in would be insanly powerful at this level (followers etc.) and it is to be expected that some of these abilities aould be clipped for game balance. even if it does ruin our superhero fantasyies somwhat.
about Monks fist being capped at 3+ in The rule books. are you sure the enchantment level of the fist is capped at 3+ . most tables specifing level abilities only go up to lvl 20. The high level campaign rules say that in general one should extrapolate such tables for higher levels.(case in example is cleric's Turn unDead which if capped at the highest level in the table does not allow a cleric to destroy vampires).
Note - all my coments on PnP are based on 2nd eddition Rule books I do not have and have not read 3rd ed and as such may be totaly ignorant of specifics.
also does anyone know the specifics of the monk class in 2nd ed. I seem to remeber that it was a priest kit but have been unable to find it.
I was not refering to True AD&D rules but rather to the initialy Monk abilities as set down by bioware In SOA like many abilities which get better with level thse became unbalanced at the rediculously high levels of TOB and had to be toned down. any class if all abilities wre allowed in would be insanly powerful at this level (followers etc.) and it is to be expected that some of these abilities aould be clipped for game balance. even if it does ruin our superhero fantasyies somwhat.
about Monks fist being capped at 3+ in The rule books. are you sure the enchantment level of the fist is capped at 3+ . most tables specifing level abilities only go up to lvl 20. The high level campaign rules say that in general one should extrapolate such tables for higher levels.(case in example is cleric's Turn unDead which if capped at the highest level in the table does not allow a cleric to destroy vampires).
Note - all my coments on PnP are based on 2nd eddition Rule books I do not have and have not read 3rd ed and as such may be totaly ignorant of specifics.
also does anyone know the specifics of the monk class in 2nd ed. I seem to remeber that it was a priest kit but have been unable to find it.
They say to truly understand reality one must learn to think in Seven Dimensions
Understand there is no chaos - Only a pattern to large for your mind to grasp
Understand there is no chaos - Only a pattern to large for your mind to grasp
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Silvanerian
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I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty positive about the +3 cap.
Yet, logically speaking, why would it stop there?
My point was more that all classes have been modified a bit (or more), to basically make every class playable without people getting annoyed about some classes are too hard to play.
(In AD&D a level 20 mage have to spend about 28 hours concentrating to memorize all of his spells! (this I'm sure off) (10 min pr. level of spell - eg 90 min per level 9 spell))
-Silvanerian
Post Scriptum: I wasn't able to find any data about the monks in 2nd ed rules.
Yet, logically speaking, why would it stop there?
My point was more that all classes have been modified a bit (or more), to basically make every class playable without people getting annoyed about some classes are too hard to play.
(In AD&D a level 20 mage have to spend about 28 hours concentrating to memorize all of his spells! (this I'm sure off) (10 min pr. level of spell - eg 90 min per level 9 spell))
-Silvanerian
Post Scriptum: I wasn't able to find any data about the monks in 2nd ed rules.
Qualis Artefix Pereo
Thank God 2E AD&D rules are dead as Dillinger. They were completely convoluted, a true pain in the backside. Basing PnP on the d20 is ingenius. A 20th Level monk in 3E is probably the most versatile class after the bard which is versatility incarnate. Not to mention, according to 3E rules, a 20th lvl monk is an Outsider, i.e. a planar. Heh
As for this discussion, hmmm...I think only a power-gamer would concern himself with whether a fighter or a monk is better and that's not what BG2 is about- stick to Diablo. A fully-equipped 40th lvl fighter in BG2 will indeed be better number-wise, but how's this relevant to anyone but a power-gamer? A good player can beat even the most difficult setting of BG2's AI with any characters anyway.
As for this discussion, hmmm...I think only a power-gamer would concern himself with whether a fighter or a monk is better and that's not what BG2 is about- stick to Diablo. A fully-equipped 40th lvl fighter in BG2 will indeed be better number-wise, but how's this relevant to anyone but a power-gamer? A good player can beat even the most difficult setting of BG2's AI with any characters anyway.
I see the right, and I approve it too; condemn the wrong and yet the wrong pursue.
I ran a several hour test last night, created two characters with the same stats etc and gave them both max level with correct abilities and the best possible set of eq at end game. One was a monk, one was a fighter. First off, the fighter won every time, whether dual wielding or wearing a shield, with half hp's left.
I did take into account quivering palm, stunning blow, etc. I fought 5 battles under each configuration (shield and axe of the unyielding or dual wield axe and crom faeyr) for the fighter, then I switched the monk's hand eq over to gauntlets of crushing. Huge difference! Monk tore fighter into chunky bits with him wearing shield. Dual wielding was close, but the fighter still won. Crom Faeyr is just too damn powerful! Monk couldn't ever win if the fighter was wielding it, could do max 3/4 of fighter's hps (which would incidentally be enough to kill another monk).
So, fighters are better at fighting, unless they don't have Crom Faeyr, at which point they're worse. With cloak of mirroring, they're just as good vs mages. They just can't quivering palm or stunning blow.. oh well. Not much loss there.
As for powergaming, I definately do not consider myself to necessarily fall into that category simply because of my discussion. Number crunching is what's supposed to determine the balance of the creation of the class. My point here was that Bioware failed in balancing the monk class against it's counterparts, therefore penalyzing those that wished to roleplay the game. You'll still win, but you will end up reloading more often...
[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Scott ]
I did take into account quivering palm, stunning blow, etc. I fought 5 battles under each configuration (shield and axe of the unyielding or dual wield axe and crom faeyr) for the fighter, then I switched the monk's hand eq over to gauntlets of crushing. Huge difference! Monk tore fighter into chunky bits with him wearing shield. Dual wielding was close, but the fighter still won. Crom Faeyr is just too damn powerful! Monk couldn't ever win if the fighter was wielding it, could do max 3/4 of fighter's hps (which would incidentally be enough to kill another monk).
So, fighters are better at fighting, unless they don't have Crom Faeyr, at which point they're worse. With cloak of mirroring, they're just as good vs mages. They just can't quivering palm or stunning blow.. oh well. Not much loss there.
As for powergaming, I definately do not consider myself to necessarily fall into that category simply because of my discussion. Number crunching is what's supposed to determine the balance of the creation of the class. My point here was that Bioware failed in balancing the monk class against it's counterparts, therefore penalyzing those that wished to roleplay the game. You'll still win, but you will end up reloading more often...
[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Scott ]
I'm always amused be these types of discussions most because it is totaly pointless.
compairing fighters and monks is like compairing strawberries and kwi. yes, they have similar tastes, but they are completely different in many other ways.
maybe some of you haven't noticed, but you can bring along 6 characters! even after getting some of your basic party functions like healer, magic user, and lock picker/trap remover out o the way, you still have 3 slots to play with. so if you want to see both in action, start a multi player game with 2 pc, and move the save over to the single player folder.
compairing fighters and monks is like compairing strawberries and kwi. yes, they have similar tastes, but they are completely different in many other ways.
maybe some of you haven't noticed, but you can bring along 6 characters! even after getting some of your basic party functions like healer, magic user, and lock picker/trap remover out o the way, you still have 3 slots to play with. so if you want to see both in action, start a multi player game with 2 pc, and move the save over to the single player folder.
What's up with Quivering Palm? I read about it killing Dragons at least once a week. Firkraag has saves of 3-5, so you'd have to hit him on average 5 times before he would fail. By that time he should be dead from the damage alone (remember; your party members are helping). Does it have some save adjustment? Otherwise I cannot see it being any more useful than, say, Polymorph Other or Feeblemind (or even level 1 Blindness, since that's pretty much fatal too).
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
Right, first of all, making a fighter fight a monk doesn`t determine who`s better!! Why one of the monk`s best assets (mag res) doesn`t even take part in the battle. Fighters are SUPPOSED to be the best tanks!!
The comparison isn`t who can beat the other, but who can deal better with all the situations/combats the game presents. All in all I have to admit that fighters may have the upper hand in brainless combat (though not much)
Conclusion: the fighter is a slightly better fighter (it`s in the name after all...), but the monk is a better character.
PS: limiting your items to dual wielding with Crom (25str) limits the fighters AC (compared to a monk) and means you only have one weapon giving u abilities (since crom doesn`t give you any). As per that combat, if the fighter didn`t wield Crom, he normally didn`t win...
Now really, there both great, just choose what you feel more comfortable with...
The comparison isn`t who can beat the other, but who can deal better with all the situations/combats the game presents. All in all I have to admit that fighters may have the upper hand in brainless combat (though not much)
Conclusion: the fighter is a slightly better fighter (it`s in the name after all...), but the monk is a better character.
PS: limiting your items to dual wielding with Crom (25str) limits the fighters AC (compared to a monk) and means you only have one weapon giving u abilities (since crom doesn`t give you any). As per that combat, if the fighter didn`t wield Crom, he normally didn`t win...
Now really, there both great, just choose what you feel more comfortable with...
I am "the one", "the chosen"...
In reply to XyX
The deal with quivering palm is that it can be useful especially in a bind. I killed the mad king with my first strike in the Sanghuin city.( But that is niether here nor there). Let us talk about dragons. While a dragon has saves greater mailson takes out those saves.
The only Dragon i killed with the technique was the black dragon in the elven city. He was injured and had wing buffeted most of my characters except my monk, I tired quivering simply on a Whim, I blinked and the dragon was down. I scrolled up the lines of text and I had killed him with one blow. I guess like with most other things it is luck
The deal with quivering palm is that it can be useful especially in a bind. I killed the mad king with my first strike in the Sanghuin city.( But that is niether here nor there). Let us talk about dragons. While a dragon has saves greater mailson takes out those saves.
The only Dragon i killed with the technique was the black dragon in the elven city. He was injured and had wing buffeted most of my characters except my monk, I tired quivering simply on a Whim, I blinked and the dragon was down. I scrolled up the lines of text and I had killed him with one blow. I guess like with most other things it is luck
" If they are dead before they hit me, why do I need armor"- an unknown monk
I too have killed dragons. I have so far killed the black dragon, white dragon, and shadow dragon with qp. I've tried with others but had to reload.
As for fists being capped at +3, I don't know either, but you may want to consult the "new" Swords and Fists book for fighters. It came out after the 3rd ed. rules and so should follow them. From what I hear, the descriptions of monks abilites are detailed there.
As for fists being capped at +3, I don't know either, but you may want to consult the "new" Swords and Fists book for fighters. It came out after the 3rd ed. rules and so should follow them. From what I hear, the descriptions of monks abilites are detailed there.
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incandescent one
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