I was REALLY p*ssed off with...
I was REALLY p*ssed off with...
This new character creation guide, in particular the bit that told me that single-classed thieves "suck". Now I've played through BG1 twice and BG2 three times, each with a single-classed elf thief/assassin. I'm going to take my assassin through ToB too. Pretty much every single game I've started with a different class just bored me. That does not "suck". Okay, so having masses of useless skill points can get a bit silly, but not if you use them sensibly. I don't like being told that what I chose "sucks".
I have to concur, the writer of that article was very biased... What I found especially irritating was his use of the word "munchkin."
I'm not sure if this guy was around in the early Diablo 1 days but calling someone a "munchkin" is a pretty big insult as it implies a "hacked" character.
i.e. using shadowkeeper to give yourself a million hp's or 25's in all statistics.
I think the term he was looking for was power-gaming, which implies maximizing your characters abilities WITHIN the confines of the game.
I also found it rather amusing that he referred to everyones (well thieves traps and some mage spells) special abilities except fighters special abilities as "munchkin." The fact of the matter is you can powergame with any class. On top of that, since it's a single player game and your having fun, do whatever floats your boat. I imported a halfling assasin from BG1 and I am having a blast playing him at insane difficulty.
UberJason
I'm not sure if this guy was around in the early Diablo 1 days but calling someone a "munchkin" is a pretty big insult as it implies a "hacked" character.
i.e. using shadowkeeper to give yourself a million hp's or 25's in all statistics.
I think the term he was looking for was power-gaming, which implies maximizing your characters abilities WITHIN the confines of the game.
I also found it rather amusing that he referred to everyones (well thieves traps and some mage spells) special abilities except fighters special abilities as "munchkin." The fact of the matter is you can powergame with any class. On top of that, since it's a single player game and your having fun, do whatever floats your boat. I imported a halfling assasin from BG1 and I am having a blast playing him at insane difficulty.
UberJason
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fable
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Powergamers as a class are extremely narrow-focused. They remind me of television producers--it doesn't matter if something brings in a lot of money, it has to bring in *the most* money, or it doesn't work.
And I disagree with this. The most important thing is to have fun, and having fun means (for me) working with a variety of goals and strategies, taking my time to enjoy the view, and not looking for the BEST weapon or the BEST party. Because, as the boards show, there just isn't a "best" of anything.
And I disagree with this. The most important thing is to have fun, and having fun means (for me) working with a variety of goals and strategies, taking my time to enjoy the view, and not looking for the BEST weapon or the BEST party. Because, as the boards show, there just isn't a "best" of anything.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
IIRC, the term "munchkin" was originally coined by RPG-guru and game-developer Sandy Petersen, and was meant to describe PnP-players whose only interest was to max out their characters to a point where it was sheerly ridiculous and insane, while not paying any attention to plot, atmosphere or realism. The kind of players I hate in PnP-games...Originally posted by UberJason:
<STRONG>What I found especially irritating was his use of the word "munchkin."
</STRONG>
He used the word to refer to this kind of activity - what else can you call a kensai/mage character ?
But then, as long as you play single player, it's really your own business.
Post in a public forum, and get all the flaming you deserve... 
Now how about...
[*]Berserker-Mage
[*]Swashbuckler-Mage
[*]Priest of Helm-Mage
[*]Fighter/Mage multi
[*]Cleric/Mage multi
Anything wrong with those, from a roleplaying perspective? Or is simply any Mage combo cheesy? In that case, are Mages just cheesy?
[*]Berserker-Mage
[*]Swashbuckler-Mage
[*]Priest of Helm-Mage
[*]Fighter/Mage multi
[*]Cleric/Mage multi
Anything wrong with those, from a roleplaying perspective? Or is simply any Mage combo cheesy? In that case, are Mages just cheesy?
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
That's why all these "Monk vs Fighter" and "Kensai/Mage" posts are kind of pointless, imho. The whole idea is to have fun, and if you have fun playing a Jester or some other character class out there that other people say is "stupid" or "Cheesy" or "worthless", why should you care? From a powergaming perspective, some characters may be better equipped to get the maximum experience or wear the "best" equipment, but from a roleplaying or a "just for the hell of it" perspective, you truly can finish the game with any class and any combination of npcs.
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Lews Therin
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Do you think this is true for ToB as well? I'm having a heck of time with the final battle, and couldn't imagine tackling it without powerful characters.Originally posted by Laurelei:
<STRONG> From a powergaming perspective, some characters may be better equipped to get the maximum experience or wear the "best" equipment, but from a roleplaying or a "just for the hell of it" perspective, you truly can finish the game with any class and any combination of npcs.</STRONG>
Full plate and packing steel.
I think it is true. By the time you get to the final battle in TOB, you almost can't help having powerful characters. This is true pretty much whatever the case: if you solo, or if you have a party of 6 thieves. As long as you took the time to develop some kind of strategies along the way, any battle can be won in my experience.Originally posted by Lews Therin:
<STRONG>Do you think this is true for ToB as well? I'm having a heck of time with the final battle, and couldn't imagine tackling it without powerful characters.</STRONG>
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." -President George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001
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fable
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I don't know about you guys, but I don't think it's healthy to have so much commonsense as we've all shown above placed in one topic area. It's a matter of hubris, as though we're inviting a lightning strike from the gods for being wise.
So let's all just pat ourselves on the back once more and then fold up our tents and slip away into the night...
So let's all just pat ourselves on the back once more and then fold up our tents and slip away into the night...
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
You know Panda, I never knew that was where the term "munchkin" originated. You learn something new every day. In any case, I will retract my previous criticism of the use of "munchkin" terminology, and offer my humble and sincere apology that my knowledge of RPG terminology lore was so lacking.
Just out of curiousity how would you all define the following:
Munchkin:
Power-gaming:
Cheesy:
Beardy:
Are they all synonymous or are there subtle differences?
UberJason
Just out of curiousity how would you all define the following:
Munchkin:
Power-gaming:
Cheesy:
Beardy:
Are they all synonymous or are there subtle differences?
UberJason
My best guesses would be:
Munchkin: Cheating to gain an advantage (using ShadowKeeper to increase all stats to 25, max level and the best equipment). Breeze through the game and give yourself a pat on the back...
Cheesy: Abusing some design flaw in the game (Cloudkilling Dragons off-screen, setting traps around creatures with blue circles, combining Blade Barrier and Sanctuary, pickpocketing Kangaxx).
Powergaming: Making decisions purely based on maximum advantage, ignoring roleplaying aspects (killing innocents because you can "buy back" reputation anyway, setting Str/Dex/Con to 18 but Int/Wis/Cha to 3, and, last but not least (apparently) dualling Kensai to Mages ).
Add to that:
Tweaking: "Cheating" to alter some minor aspect of the game (using ShadowKeeper to alter your character's appearance, removing the XP Cap, using custom spells and items).
Common sense: Making full use of what the game offers and was meant to offer (using the best items you find, resting often, placing attack spells in triggers).
Roleplaying: Making decisions based on what you believe would be the preference of your character (not using Crom Faeyr because you like swords better, playing a Wizard Slayer ).
Love to hear what others think.
Munchkin: Cheating to gain an advantage (using ShadowKeeper to increase all stats to 25, max level and the best equipment). Breeze through the game and give yourself a pat on the back...
Cheesy: Abusing some design flaw in the game (Cloudkilling Dragons off-screen, setting traps around creatures with blue circles, combining Blade Barrier and Sanctuary, pickpocketing Kangaxx).
Powergaming: Making decisions purely based on maximum advantage, ignoring roleplaying aspects (killing innocents because you can "buy back" reputation anyway, setting Str/Dex/Con to 18 but Int/Wis/Cha to 3, and, last but not least (apparently) dualling Kensai to Mages
).Add to that:
Tweaking: "Cheating" to alter some minor aspect of the game (using ShadowKeeper to alter your character's appearance, removing the XP Cap, using custom spells and items).
Common sense: Making full use of what the game offers and was meant to offer (using the best items you find, resting often, placing attack spells in triggers).
Roleplaying: Making decisions based on what you believe would be the preference of your character (not using Crom Faeyr because you like swords better, playing a Wizard Slayer
).Love to hear what others think.
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
Hehehe, let's try to make things simple.
Twinkie/Cheeser: a Person who has the best possible items reguardless of levels or their place in the game. Also used to refer to someone who is "full of it".
Munchkin/Tweaker: Person who deliberately cheats to get perfection.These are people who believe themselves to be god or uber and use messed up words like "d00d".
Powergamer/Crackhead: Person who ignores all purposes for playing a game and instead dedicates him/herself to the mechanics of getting to the end of the game first (believing he/she is in a race). These are the people who literally beat the game in days if not hours just to prove they can.
Purist: A person who plays a game by the rules, tends to take their time and experience the game for what it is.
Roleplayer: A person who plays by the rules and totally gets caught up with the setting and story. These people tend to refer to the P-n-P rules. They usually have massive collections of books stuffed around their computer and refer to them with a sort of god like awe when needed.
hope that helps
Orland
Twinkie/Cheeser: a Person who has the best possible items reguardless of levels or their place in the game. Also used to refer to someone who is "full of it".
Munchkin/Tweaker: Person who deliberately cheats to get perfection.These are people who believe themselves to be god or uber and use messed up words like "d00d".
Powergamer/Crackhead: Person who ignores all purposes for playing a game and instead dedicates him/herself to the mechanics of getting to the end of the game first (believing he/she is in a race). These are the people who literally beat the game in days if not hours just to prove they can.
Purist: A person who plays a game by the rules, tends to take their time and experience the game for what it is.
Roleplayer: A person who plays by the rules and totally gets caught up with the setting and story. These people tend to refer to the P-n-P rules. They usually have massive collections of books stuffed around their computer and refer to them with a sort of god like awe when needed.
hope that helps
Orland