ToB Paladin Weapons: Carsomyr vs. Purifier

Rogue · Post by **Rogue** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:52 pm

Well, since TOB is out, there is a new toy for Paladin lovers. The Purifier Bastard Sword is a 1-handed Variant of the Carsomyr. The big question is, which is better, the 2-Handed Carsomyr+6 or 1-handed Purifier+5?

Damage:

EDIT: Look below for this info, it was a nice "ansewer finding session."

Resistances:
Carsomyr wins hands down with Purifier+Sheild of lost only able to get 35% magic resist, Carsomyr gets 50%, nuff aid.

Abilities:
Dispel Magic is completly useless in ToB since the mages are higher than level 15, less this has been changed, anyone know? This means Purifier wins with the Mass Cure ability.

Other:
Sheilds can give an additional +5 to your AC and +4 MORE aginst misseles. This is where the Carsomyr falls. The missele blocking can be neglected by boots of avoidance, but than there are no boots of speed

. The AC cannot be made up but, the Carsomyr had 2x the range as Purifier allowing the paladin to strike from the 2nd row and avoid damage.

My opinion is to go with whatever weapon you like the best, I've defeated the game with Carsomyr and Purifier and there are no differences except ones got a sheild and the other dosen't, but a -12 AC is quite tempting...

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Rogue ]

Sabre · Post by **Sabre** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:04 pm

Originally posted by Rogue:
Carsomyr does 1D12+6 for a roll of 7-18 with an average of 12.5 base damage.
Purifier does 2D4+5 for a roll of 12-18 with an average of 15 damage.

Purifier only get a max of 13 damages; 2 * 4 + 5. So the minimun damage for Purifier is 6 and the max is 13, giving it an average of 9.5

The weapons are very simalar in damage dealing and both get bonuses vs. Chaotic Evil, though Purifier gets 1 mose point than Carsomyr

Um, shouldn't this be the other way around. Carsomyr gives +6 against Chaotic Evil and Purifier only gives +5

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Sabre ]

Rogue · Post by **Rogue** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:10 pm

The damage thing ponders me, becasue it looks as if the thing does 2*(4+5), which means it does the first damage I had listed, if it does (2*4)+5, than the Bastard Swords supposed "higher damage" of a longsword is crap considering Longswords are 1D8, which equals 2D4, mysteries, mysteries. Btw, I took the bonus into accont of +5 vs Chaotic being added to each of the rolls than multiplied by 2. If it's your way, Carsomyr wins hands down almost and thanks for the clarification Sabre.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:22 pm

Do we take into account dual wielding Purifier with, say, Crom Faeyr or the Axe of the Unyielding? That would totally out-class Carsomyr damage-wise. There's still the magic resistance, of course.

Is the missile protection part such an issue? All Paladins except Keldorn gain immunity to normal weapons in Hell (or they fall...). From what I read, most ToB missiles aren't very magical. Besides, I never had much trouble with Archers anyway. It's the Mages and the bosses that are tough.

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:23 pm

Originally posted by Rogue:
 than the Bastard Swords supposed "higher damage" of a longsword is crap considering Longswords are 1D8, which equals 2D4, mysteries, mysteries.

A Bastard Sword does do more damage than a longsword, on average. Bastard swords are 2-8 with probabilites of:
2 damage 6.25% (roll of 1 and 1)
3 damage 12.5% (rolls of 1+2 or 2+1)
4 damage 18.75% (rolls of 1+3, 3+1, 2+2)
5 damage 25% (rolls of 1+4, 4+1, 2+3, 3+2)
6 damage 18.75%
7 damage 12.5%
8 damage 6.25%
and an average of 5 damage.

Long swords are 1-8 with probabilities of:
1 damage 12.5%
2 damage 12.5%
...
8 damage 12.5%
for an average of 4.5. Most people who played the pen-and-paper D&D have this so ingrained that it's simple intuition (all that actual dice rolling instead of the computer).

Rogue · Post by **Rogue** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:26 pm

I was using a "True" Paladin in the since, a classic Knight. In all actuallity the Knights of the past would not use a dual weild, but since this is a video game, yeah, a dual weilding paly with the CF/Purifier combo would be quite wicked, but Paladins already pack a massive punch anyways.

Thanks Doltan, I've never really had the time to sit down and do the pen and paper version D&D.

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Rogue ]

Sabre · Post by **Sabre** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:31 pm

Did some testing with the two swords, the damages are confirmed. Purifier does 2D4 + 5, with another +5 against Chaotic Evil; so min and max is 6 and 13, or 11 and 18 versus CE. Carsomyr does 1D12 + 6, with another +6 against Chaotic Evil; so min and max is 7 and 18, or 13 and 24 versus CE.

Carsomyr wins according to damages.

Edit (again) - Sorry about that Doltan, I realised it after I posted it. So I saw no point of leaving it there.

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Sabre ]

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:35 pm

You don't times it by two, 2D4 means you actually roll two 4-sided dice (at least in the PNP variety, and I believe BG does the same).

(This was in response to Sabre, who has since changed his message...).

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Doltan ]

Rogue · Post by **Rogue** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:36 pm

I think I figured out what he meant Sabre, when the computer goes and randomizes the numbers, it selects two seperate numbers, such as when you roll two dice at once, it than adds the two numbers together to get the weapon's damage.

EDIT: Your faster than me Doltan

, but is the +5 added to each roll or the overall total?

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Rogue ]

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:40 pm

The +5 is traditionally added to just the total damage. (woops, wrote that wrong the first time)

By the way, in 2nd edition PNP, I believe (there are those who can correct me, as this was my DM's convention) that multipliers like backstab and even critical hits do not multiply the +5, just the base roll. But, it is my understanding that BG actually multiplies all of the damage by either the backstab multiplier or times 2 for a critical hit.

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Doltan ]

Rogue · Post by **Rogue** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:44 pm

I stand corrected in my first post than, I am quite sure after doing some number crusching w/ Carsomyr, that the +5 does multiply on a critcal hit I belive, and I'm sure it does on a backstab, (a 110 with the backstabbing sword at 5X?) <-that was nuts and got the S/S to prove it, lol. Thanks again man.

LOL, editing frenzy here tonight.

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Rogue ]

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:45 pm

Originally posted by Sabre:


Edit (again) - Sorry about that Doltan, I realised it after I posted it. So I saw no point of leaving it there.

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Sabre ]

Oh, no problem. I just didn't want my message and Rogue's message to make no sense when others were reading this thread. It's one of the difficulties of having an archive like this rather than just being in a chat room.

By the way, I appreciated your analysis Sabre.

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:46 pm

Originally posted by Rogue:
If the +5 is added to each roll, likeI first thought, than my afore mentioned post stands true, but, I am quite sure after doing some number crusching w/ Carsomyr, that the +5 does multiply on a critcal hit I belive, and I'm sure it does on a backstab, (a 110 with the backstabbing sword at 5X?) <-that was nuts and got the S/S to prove it, lol. Thanks again man.

Yes, I'm sure you are right. I've seen some posts about outrageous backstabs and that wouldn't be possible without multiplying the modifiers. I didn't mean to add any confusion, I just thought that Bioware was "cheating" a little by upping the damage from the old convention.

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:49 pm

Ok, stop the madness! I promise not to edit another one of my posts if you guys stop as well .

It's funny that we can all be so confused and typing so fast that such editing is really necessary.

Most the time, people don't even know how to edit their posts.

Lews Therin · Post by **Lews Therin** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:50 pm

Originally posted by Sabre:
Did some testing with the two swords, the damages are confirmed. Purifier does 2D4 + 5, with another +5 against Chaotic Evil; so min and max is 6 and 13, or 11 and 18 versus CE.

I'm confused shouldn't the min for 2d4 + 5 be 7. Two 4 sided dice plus 5.

Rogue · Post by **Rogue** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:52 pm

Deal Doltan

, I edited the main one and said look below, and lets leave it like that, the member prolly think we are nuts and are talking in code now.
P.S. I'm not a English major... lol

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Rogue ]

Sabre · Post by **Sabre** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:56 pm

Lews Therin: You're right, it should.

Ok here's the new states for the damages:
Carsomyr: min 7, max 18; versus Chaotic Evil: min 13, max 24
Purifier: nim 7, max 13; versus Chaotic Evil: min 12, max 18

(Poor Korgan took all the damages for the test)

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:56 pm

Yes, for the record, I am accepting complete responsibility for the +5 fiasco (and subsequent edits by both of us). I originally stated it incorrectly, which led to a whole bunch of editing right after the Sabre edits. If anyone is reading this thread, go ahead and assume that I am the one that was "out to lunch."

Lucian_Garland · Post by **Lucian_Garland** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 12:32 pm

Umm...these calculations doesnt look allright to me..lets see

carsomyr is a 2hander..but masterwork since its 1d12..then theres is the +5 enchancement, and then the +5 bonus versus CE
minimum value versus CE 1+5+5=11
maximum value versus CE 12+5+5=22

add 1 damage to the final result for carsomyr +6
and dont forget that the upgraded carsomyr allso gains a speedbonus, meaning a pally with 2 stars in 2handed mastery can get it down to speedfactor 0

purifier +5
2d4+5 +5 versus CE
minimum damage
1+1+5+5=12
maximum damage
4+4+5+5=18

the purifier has higher minimum damage than carsomyr, but 4 less maximum damage.

one question about these weapons that should be considered..at what level is their dispell working?
especially counting for carsomyr with its dispell strike...with tests, one had proved its dispell to count as level 15..so if you where up against higher mages..byebye dispelling stoneskins..
and i later looked in the itemfile with infinity explorer..and carsomyrs dispell spell also is counted as level 15.

im wondering if anything has improved for the upgraded versions of purifier and carsomyr, as this may be the deciding thing...i cannot check it out, as ive uninstalled bg2

[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Lucian_Garland ]

Lucian_Garland · Post by **Lucian_Garland** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 12:34 pm

arrrgh, double post

[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Lucian_Garland ]