Druids- CRAP?!?!

seanthony · Post by **seanthony** » Mon Aug 06, 2001 11:26 pm

Okay, I've been reading in many reviews and articles, and it seems that everyone reckons that Druids are absolute crappy party members (and Protagonist members too!). Is this true?

I'm sure this question/debate has been answered many times now, but I only just became a member of this great forum. I could use a insight on whether to import my Shapeshifter Druid from SoA into ToB.

I heard from somewhere that Druids would ROCK in ToB, hence the majoy XP jump .. but it doesn't seem so.

(

So for all you Druid fans... what great bonuses/abilities did you guys get in ToB after Level 14?!?

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Mon Aug 06, 2001 11:53 pm

I just got a game where I just BARELY managed to break Jaheira into 15th level druid....and it made a HUGE difference in her effectiveness.

However, having played high level druids in ToB, IMO the XP jump is an artifact form ADnD. That huge spell increase from 14th to 15th level only serves IME to put them pack on par with clerics. In ToB, the Druid is a weak class...but not *as* weak as in SoA.

-Polaris

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Mon Aug 06, 2001 11:59 pm

Druds are great. I'm not a fan but, but nothing in the world even unbalance from the byoware programers will make your favored class ruin. Btw BALANCE is your responsability an your belief. And for what you want to know the druids abilities, this will crapp the surprise.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 12:06 am

Druids are better in ToB than in SoA if you are single-classed, but they have problems:

1. Poor AC (contrast this to a cleric whose's AC is equal to a fighter). This relegates them to backline duty.....

2. Long spell casting times. With few exceptions, those neato druid spells take a long time to cast. That also makes them firm back-row people.

3. So-So special abilities. OK, I will agree that Greater Elemental Summoning is awesome, and both insect plague and creeping doom are a party's best friend, and nature's beauty is good for 'crowd control'...but what then? For the same XP total, a Mage does these things far better than a druid....and a cleric will have far more levels and healing (and raise dead). [A Planetar is about equal to a Prince in combat, and the spells put it over IMO.]

Don't get me wrong...you can have a great time with a Druid, but they are still weak.

As for multiclassed druids given the XP table.....fergettaboutit....geez!

-Polaris

rarsus · Post by **rarsus** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 12:37 am

One cheesy way to make the druid a bit stronger is to dualclass a fighter to druid at level 10 (be sure to put 5 dots into staves as a fighter)

edited for typo's

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Ash ]

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 12:43 am

Ash,

I can do one better

[This is a repeat from the Cheese-Master Guild thread]. Take a ranger to moderate level and dual him over to cleric. You will get a MUCH better XP table (with more spells and higher casting levels) and you will get ALL the Druid and Clerical spells of *all* levels (including creeping doom, elemental summoning, ironskins, etc).

-Polaris

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 12:47 am

If you haven't played a druid in ToB before, you'll be pleasantly surprised by some of the changes made to the Shapeshifter class. First of all, Shapeshifters are allowed to wear Shadow Dragon (AC 1) and White Dragon (AC -2) scales. The Greater Werewolf form was made stronger and has a better AC. Finally, like the rest of the druid kits, the Shapeshifter gets a serious boost to his spells at level 15.

In general, druids in ToB can achieve a decent AC since they can wear Ankheg plate (the description is wrong) and most of the dragon scale armors - they just need to meet the strength requirements. They have good mid- to upper- level spells, and there are some outstanding weapons available to the druid class.

If you like playing a druid, then go for it.

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Sojourner ]

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 1:00 am

First of all, I wish to say I agree with Sojourner on two important points:

1. In ToB, they did improve the druids (a lot...especially the shapeshifter).

2. If you are into playing a druid, then by all means do so. Just because many of us (like me) think it is a weak class, does NOT mean you can not enjoy it (in some cases the opposite is true).

Having said that, let me point out why I think the druids are still underpowered and get the proverbial short-end:

1. Generally pointless special abilities. OK, the greater wolfwere form is nice, but it doesn't improve any! In addition, you can not use *any* of your items when 'wolfed out'. I have found that that means you are actually *weaker* (at very high levels characteristic of ToB) in your shapeshifted form as compared to your normal form. When you add the fact it takes a full round to change and *can* be interruped (like spell casting), I'd call this ability a net loss.

Now, the elemental forms were supposed to fix this, but while they are stronger, I still find they are weaker in general to the base form (and I did find out the hard way).

2. AC....yes the ability to use dragon scale (shadow, white...and SILVER btw) along with ankeg plate helps a great deal. Unfortunately you can not use rings or cloaks of protection with that...so the AC benefit is somewhat limited.

3. Spells....yes Druids get some great spells, but I have found that the leap in the number of spells at 15th level only serves to put the Druid back on par with a cleric of the same XP...and the cleric still has something like a five level advantage on the druid (for spell casting level).

Finally, the fact the Ranger/Cleric gets ALL clerical and druidic spells (a major cheese IMO) really takes the starch out of anyone that wants to play a druid. After all the Ranger/cleric gets the *same* great druid spells, outdoor special abilities with the *clerical* XP table and spell progression chart (both of which are head and shoulders over the druidic one). If that wasn't enough, he gets better armor and weapons to boot.

Please don't get me wrong (reread my first two points). Druids can be great fun and you can win just fine with a druid pro. I still think on an absolute scale, however, that they are on the weak side and could stand being toned up (fixing the ranger/cleric problem would help).

-Polaris

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 1:41 am

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>2. AC....yes the ability to use dragon scale (shadow, white...and SILVER btw) along with ankeg plate helps a great deal. Unfortunately you can not use rings or cloaks of protection with that...so the AC benefit is somewhat limited.
</STRONG>

Silver dragon scales? Do you mean the Human Flesh Armor? If so, druids can't wear it. True, druids can't wear rings/cloaks of protection with the magical armors, but neither can the other classes.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 1:47 am

Druids are great IMO although I have to agree that they suffer a few disadvantages compared to some other classes. Still, they are very fun to play so don't hesitate to import your Shapeshifter if you liked him in the first place. As for that kit in particular, I wouldn't recommend any magical armor that excludes Rings/Cloaks of Protection. Most fighting should be done in werewolf form and you keep the AC bonus of these rings/cloaks when in werewolf form.

rarsus · Post by **rarsus** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 2:56 am

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>Ash,

I can do one better [This is a repeat from the Cheese-Master Guild thread]. Take a ranger to moderate level and dual him over to cleric. You will get a MUCH better XP table (with more spells and higher casting levels) and you will get ALL the Druid and Clerical spells of *all* levels (including creeping doom, elemental summoning, ironskins, etc).

-Polaris</STRONG>

I know that this is a "more powerfull" character than a druid, but it is hardly the same as a druid. I agree with the fact that a F/D isn't a true Druid either, but it comes closer.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 3:26 am

I think everyone here has agreed that if you liked your druid before, then go ahead and import him into ToB....just be well aware of his strengths and weaknesses (but that goes for any class I think

).

I also think that the ranger/cleric is pure cheese (which is why I put it in the prior thread), but I see no reason why you couldn't play him just like a druid. The only differences (other than the armor and weapons to a lesser degree) would be the alignment (which is not a big deal) and the stronghold quests (which Druids can not do until level 14 anyway). [This was for Ash btw

]

I was under the understanding that if you killed the silver dragon, you got scales and blood. Was I wrong? I never killed Adalon so I don't know...but am willing to be educated.

Finally to the original poster, I think you got a pretty mixed (and good) response from the supporters of the druid to the critics of the druid (with me being the critic). I hope this helped.

-Polaris

KillerKid · Post by **KillerKid** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 3:29 am

any character can be good hell u can win the game easy with anyone just play and work at it

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 3:39 am

Polaris,

The silver dragon scales don't exist. You only get her blood to make the humam flesh armor, but surely a silver scale armor was a good Idea.

I kill Adalon, I save before and kill her, I don't resist she, was so beautiful.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 3:41 am

Ivan,

Humph....learn something new every day. Thanks for the info. 'Tis a pity though....silver dragon armor would look so KEWL

-Polaris

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 4:54 am

You can get white though

seanthony · Post by **seanthony** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 4:57 am

Oh god.. I dunno if this is a good thing or not, but receiving 14 replies in 5 hrs made my day! haha (I had 5 hrs of classes straight, dammit! haha.. actually, it'd been 7hrs, but I'm skipping the last class... enuf of my sad life).

Anyway, thanks for all your opinions. It's just that when I initially bought SoA, I was always a Druid fan... don't ask me why. I guess I like the whole 'nature' aspect or something. Hence me also liking Ranger (I played an Archer in SoA). In ToB, I completed it with a Ranger/Cleric, as I read somewhere in the GameBanshee guide that it's a good combination. And yes, it was VERY fun with a R/C as I was a pretty good fighter (hello, I was a RANGER! haha) and a Cleric for healing and the Insect spell.

Anyway, I was so bored two days ago, I decided to play SoA for the THIRD time with a Paladin.. just to see what it was like (as I never had a Paladin in ANY of my group).

The bottom line is, yeah.. maybe once I'm done with my Paladin (or heck, WHILE also playing with my Paladin game), I will import my Shapeshifter into ToB. Hmm.. I hope it'll be worth it! haha.. coz I mean, by the time I reach 3M XP, I'd be probably facing "the final boss", or something. And until that time, I'd have to be satisfied with the few Level 7 spells I have (I think it's.. er.. 4-ish?).

What I was actually hoping for ToB to improve on Druids was to allow the Shapeshifter to change into.. possibly a Golem (??) or a Dragon (yee hah!) or something along those lines! haha.. possibly into a Fire Elemental (wait a minute, I think that's possible, right?).

Also, somehow, gaining the Druid Grove was utter crap for me! haha.. actually, for all classes, I was also hoping that our "class quest" would have some effect/impact on to our gaming adventure, especially for Druids. I mean, I reached Level 14 (JUST before I reached Ch4) .. and all I get is a stupid grove?!?! haha... It'd be cool if I could control all the animals/monsters in the Druid Grove to my bidding *evil grin*.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 5:10 am

@Eleshar:

You did get a nice figurine, too, didn't you? And yes, Shapeshifters (and any other druid) can transform into Fire or Earth Elementals if they choose these abilities i ToB.