TeamBG Petition to BioWare for the Release of IE Source Code and Related Tools

Manveru · Post by **Manveru** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 4:16 am

Okay, this is a post to denote the official "TeamBG Petition to BioWare for the Release of IE Source Code and Related Tools".

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The intent of this petition is to show the support and wishes of the public pertaining to the release of Infinity Engine source code and/or tools (and their source code) and any and all supporting media and/or data required by said tools or the engine itself.

The possible outcomes desired as a result of this petition is anything within the range of minimal tool or engine source release to all source and tools released for public (or select group) useage. Desired also is a license with preferably the right for any resulting games made by said source/tools or derivative of said source/tools to be able to be offered commercially with any restrictions or limitations deemed appropriate by BioWare in the licensing agreement agreed to upon any individual or group obtaining said source/tools.

Any negotiations needed to conclude how any license agreement breifly described here could be arranged is welcome by TeamBG and its staff.

In conclusion I would like to state the current position of TeamBG and other groups as far as what has been accomplished and not accomplished.

1) A game add-on has been made and released successfully to the public free of charge thus far for BG1/TotSC.

2) Many game add-ons of similar nature are in progress for BG2, BG1, IWD and PST.

3) Many data file formats in the Infinity Engine games are 80% to 100% mapped and understood, as well as editable using various after market third party utilities. Allowing literally 100's or possibly 1000's of custom made items, spells, BAM's, scripts, dialogs, etc. to be made available for download by players of the official games released using this engine.

4) Many game engine (compiled EXE) restictions and limitations still limit what we would like to achieve.

5) Graphical area editing is somewhat difficult to achieve at this point but is being developed and is probably about 75% to 85% complete at this point in the editing community.

6) The entire editing community for IE games has invested well over 2.5 years into developing methods to edit and add to these games and we hope that due to the retiring of this game engine for commercial purposes by its initial developers/owners that we as highly dedicated and capable fans can unlock the rest of the abilities of the IE engine in similar ways that others have done with released source to other games in the past (such as from id Software).

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The method of signing this petition is to email the email address below with either a short or long agreement with these sentiments and any further statements you'd like to make.

Please do not send ANYTHING that is not a postive agreement with these ideas and hopes, as if you do not agree, you simply should not reply with an email.

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Email (with the subject: BioWare-TeamBG Petition):

petition@teambg.com

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS TOPIC FOR YOUR SUPPORT...REPLY WITH YOUR SUPPORT BY EMAILING THE ADDRESS ABOVE. ALL EMAILS WILL BE GATHERED AND FORWARDED TO BIOWARE.

Skeelo · Post by **Skeelo** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 6:50 am

Ha thats never going to happen...why would Bioware giveup their programming secrets.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:16 am

Because then they would be following in the footsteps of Microsoft.

Besides, the IE has pretty much outlived its purpose. By the time NWN and PoR are released, the IE will be just a memory. Albeit, a wonderful memory for millions of fans across the planet.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:58 am

Why would they not? They will never earn another dime with it anyway, and it would be a marvelous gesture to the BG community.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:08 am

Good publicity, for certain.

Aegon · Post by **Aegon** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 10:56 am

Not gonna happen, especially with that little part in there about being able to make products to sell commercially.

First, it has the potential to take sales away from NWN, which is a world-building, adventure-building product.

Second, there could very well be proprietary information in the engine they intend to use in other ways.

lilpup · Post by **lilpup** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 11:23 pm

In response to an earlier post, Microsoft has NEVER released any source code in the way that TeamBG is asking for. Their "shared source" practice involves allowing someone to look at, but not change, the code.

Convincing Bioware that this should be opened will be tricky at best, with the engine's lifespan just now coming to an end. Quake 1, which is the biggest title I can think of with open source, was not opened for quite a while after it started losing popularity (kudos to id for this one, though).

As to the question of why they might open it up: engines don't usually sell games, art & story does (ideally, anyway

, not to mention the PR value. However, licensing the engine to other game companies is a HUGE money-maker for the developers.

I think that to have any hope of convincing Bioware, the comment about commercial offerings is going to have to go. I can't see them agreeing to that part of it, unless they get a pretty hefty cut of the proceeds (in which case you are just licensing the engine anyway).

Another argument for opening it is that Bioware can then keep an eye out for improvements that are made by the public, and possibly recruit someone that does very good work. I know of at least 3 people that have gotten jobs this way - by making skins & levels for various games (yes, I used to work in the games industry, and no it wasn't all that great).

Good luck to TeamBG on this one.

velvetfreak · Post by **velvetfreak** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 6:38 am

I can't see it affecting NWN's sales. NWN will be a superior product, with a superior toolset, and a design philosophy that lends itself to quick customization.

And with any luck, the proprietary code issue will be minimal. Bioware have said themselves, in talking about ToB, that they knew they had stretched the Infinity engine to breaking point. Their future products - NWN and SW:KotOR - have been built from the ground up.

And nobody has said NO yet, so why shouldn't we try? Some people...

The only companies likely to use the engine are BIO and BIS, because Interplay/BIS hold the license for D&D. Or held it - I'm not sure what's going on with the D&D property since Infogrames swallowed Hasbro (does anybody?) but BIO have already waved goodbye to the Infinity engine... Which leaves Black Isle, currently developing Torn, which supposedly has a superior engine itself. The crux is, without a license to develop for D&D, the Infinity engine is useless - there's too much of the ruleset hard-coded in there. It's old news. It's had it's day.

There is every chance the Infinity engine will never again be used for a commercial release (even with TeamBG's ambitions for it, I wonder about the D&D IP issue). There is every chance Bioware *might* relinquish it to the fan community.

[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: velvetfreak ]

velvetfreak · Post by **velvetfreak** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 6:43 am

Uh, Xyx - have you been throwing those Time Stop spells around again? Your sig's about 10 days ahead of my calendar...

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:01 pm

Oops

Thanks, Velvetfreak

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 5:32 pm

I can think of some reasons of why I think this will not happen.

- Origin was asked to release WC2 engine, they never anwer.
BioWare is not EA but still...
- 2D games require a lot of work, not everyone can create maps (to create a map in a 2d game you have to be a artist BTW) or do the programing on a 2D game, remenber that Black Isle created PS:T by messing with the infinity engine and created IWD/HoW but still many problems with the engine (just see Torment problems with loading areas that became corrupted and the terrible 3d of HoW) and those guys could call BioWare and ask about it but still, they did not build the engine.
Also maps require a lot of hard space, I know since a 2D vs 3D had DaveG saying a few things about how 2D games work...
- BioWare put the engine on the drawer but they could still work with it again (or at least look into it to design a more powerful 2D engine based on it)

Neverwinter Nights is more powerful to create modules and more useful to the non programer/artit fan out there since the 3D system and tools are easy to work with.

dead0eye · Post by **dead0eye** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 10:12 am

Duncha guys think that this is a bit too early?

velvetfreak · Post by **velvetfreak** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 5:42 am

Originally posted by dead0eye:
<STRONG>Duncha guys think that this is a bit too early?</STRONG>

Bioware aren't under any pressure vis. time frames; they can releae it when they're ready. And of course they wouldn't do it any other way.

This action is just to give them an idea of how many people are interested - and regardless of your estimation of its chances, if you support the idea in principle I hope you'll add your voice to the chorus...