Regarding SoA Ending, of course spoilers.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:24 am

This thread is spoilerish. You have been warned. Twice.

After my last run, I've noticed (again) that a few things are so wide opened at SoA ending (and the ToB consequences) that I'm stunned how much I still like to finish the game. Period.

For example.

When the game ends, John Irenicus appears uncounscious in a different realm, with devils atacking him. His soul was banned right? He had no right to the eternal (or long) life of the elves, and the rest into anywhere. Why do they send him to hell instead of keeping him wandering seeing the realms as a punishment? I think it would be worst to be trapped in oblivion running back and forth from the planes without being actually able to communicate or just rest, and that punishment would be better for him (and it would even make the redemption mod far more funny, with irenicus soul being rescued from this oblivion by a demi god like Amelissan).

Another point: When the game ends, irenicus is sent to a catholic hell (bah), a table with six persons appear. They may not be the five already - they're six - and the table has no bhaalspawn symbol - but Cyric's symbol, am I wrong? They're cowled. They're all men for what the animation shows. There's a worry about "Gorion's ward has become too powerfull" and they say "the spawn of Bhaal is doomed. There is no escape". Are they cowled wizards? No, they had the chance to kill you every step on the game. Are they Cyric followers trying to protect their own God portfolio? I think so. Where are they, using of guile to kill me during the storm that is the war versus the five?

I'm ok - ToB is just an expansion yadda yadda. So why giving him godhood then? We could have a BG3 using the same engine with a very good work of history and highly profitable, to finish the saga mixing the armies of the five, the consequences of the soul war versus Irenicus, and the six favoured of Cyric comming to hunt you and sending people against you with twists that make the plot both harder and nicer.

So, what do you guys think? Any comments? Any rants like mine?

DarkAngel · Post by **DarkAngel** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:30 am

hmm they could be the council of six... maybe they are worried that you have bechome too powerful beacause they don't want you messing with theyr affairs... and maybe they are secret followers of cyric or maybe old bhaal followers and they are trying to stop all the childeren of bhaal to bechome too powerfull sdo they can't take his (bhaals) place...

but i have a question if its ok... when we (the character) bechoms the lord of murder... what happens with cyric? wich portfolios should he have, or is he like a temporairly good, so when we acend to god hood are we going to take his place?

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:26 am

Cyric loses the Lord of Murder title and the Abyss part that belonged to Bhaal; because it seems he prefers to be in Pandemonium (seems like he's not really interested into keeping the Throne of Bhaal itself in a meeting you have with him later at ToB).

Anyone else agree? Doesnt agree? Wanna curse me for blasphemy?

DarkAngel · Post by **DarkAngel** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:04 am

but he'll stil be god of illusion,lies,trickerry ect`?

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:28 am

He's not god of ilusions, AFAIK, but yes, he keeps the other powers. He seem sto feel he's stuck with Bhaal's murder habilities. Strange, I guess. (at least he seems so on BG).

Vic20 · Post by **Vic20** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:14 am

at the end of soa jon irenicus dosent have a soul thats why he is "sucked" down to hell or whatever not because anyone banned him there, he just cannot survive in the "real" world when the character kills him

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:07 am

How so? Ellesime cursed him to a mortal life, and to get old, to lose the elven magnificience and as far as I know he still had his soul, and he was seeking for the Godly powers to increase his status to allow him to:

A) destroy the curse that given him a mortal life
B) garther the power from the tree of life
C) become himself a God.

This is true, and only his sister had no soul left, but because she choosen the undead path, becoming a vampire.

Aramant · Post by **Aramant** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:57 pm

As far as I can recall, Irenicus and Bodhi were made soulless by Ellesime. Bodhi chose vampirism as a means to function without a soul, but Irenicus wanted to get a replacement soul. As the Bhaalspawn would have strong souls, your PC seemed like an ideal person to tap into.

FireLighter · Post by **FireLighter** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:51 pm

Yes, they both had no soul which is why they were rotting away. I believe remembering Irenicus mentioning it in a few cutscenes throughout the game.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:56 am

I remember he mentioning somethings as if his life essense had been taken from him, and his link to the elven tree of life has been severed. He was striped of everything that was elven and therefore he would die. He was beggining to get old (elves on myth are eternal, or have long lives) and he felt his age making him slower (when his sister wins an extra soul she starts to fiest and be happy). "I remember nothing but you turning your back on me along with all the others" but no mention of soul directly except for the soul of the child of bhaal. Btw, it was not the soul too - it was Bhaal's essence, the godly taint. IMO.

Thrifalas · Post by **Thrifalas** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:47 pm

I'd always thought he was stripped of his soul and wanted a replacement - preferably of someone strong. I think there are some dialogues which says so, though I can't tell out of the air.

And the six are confirmed to be... nobodies. That scene has nothing to do with ToB or anything else. And Cyric's symbol is a skull with black rays shooting out from it, if it hasn't changed from 2nd to 3rd edition. Besides, isn't that the BG-skull? Which is found in in big room with all the statues at the very end of BG1?

Oh well, something to take notice of during the next playthrough.

Crabfish · Post by **Crabfish** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:11 am

The skull on the table is indeed the skull from BG. It's Bhaal's symbol (a skull in a circle of.. tearsdrops?), which confirmes that the six has at least something to do with the whole Bhaal-story. Remeber that ToB did not exist when the final movie was made - the six on the table could very well be what later became "the five" in ToB. Put Melissan in the bunch and we have six of them. A theory of sort.

Well, Cyric's symbol is a jawless skull on a purple sun. Like [url="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/FR_ART/HolySymbols/Cyricsymbol.jpg"]this[/url].

Thrifalas · Post by **Thrifalas** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:52 pm

That theory is well known and well... Considering they're all males and no one is close to a Fire-Giant in appearence... no.

And I believe that the game developers have made an official statement that the movie with the six around the table hasn't got anything to do with ToB.

And well, purple, or so... ~~

Crabfish · Post by **Crabfish** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:05 am

[QUOTE=Thrifalas]That theory is well known and well... Considering they're all males and no one is close to a Fire-Giant in appearence... no.[/QUOTE]

Well, I know. That's why I wrote "the six on the table could very well be what later became 'the five' in ToB", meaning that the idea with a powerful group of bhaalspawns gathering together originally came from the ending movie, but developed. Sort of.

masteralef · Post by **masteralef** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:04 am

[QUOTE=Crabfish]Well, I know. That's why I wrote "the six on the table could very well be what later became 'the five' in ToB", meaning that the idea with a powerful group of bhaalspawns gathering together originally came from the ending movie, but developed. Sort of.[/QUOTE]

This is correct, and was confirmed by someone on the development team (IIRC David Gaider, who posted a lot on various forums not long after ToB came out). Basically, that is the 5 + Melissan sitting there. When the SoA ending movie was done, the concepts for ToB were not fully fleshed out, and the idea of a fire giant and a dragon Bhaalspawn hadn't come up yet, hence their human appearances (keep in mind- up until this point, the only Bhaalspawn you've met, with the possible exception of yourself, are human). It's a plot hole- not entirely unlike the mention in BG1 of Jon Icarus, who IIRC cursed the spider queen in that game. They decided that Icarus had too many associations with Greek mythology, and so Jon Icarus became Jon Irenicus.

Crabfish · Post by **Crabfish** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:14 pm

Okey, that makes sense.

Jon Icarus is indeed the one who has poisoned the spider thingy in Cloakwood. I just thought the recemblence peculiar, but it's supposed to be Irenicus? Heavy stuff.

Here is another "spotting" in bg1.

---> [url="http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7182/bg1bodi13lp.jpg"]*click*[/url]