Considering Abu Bashar of Nyborg was on BBC you would have an article on it: Nope.
http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/sea ... .y=0&go=go
Ok forget Nyborg lets try Abu Bashar: Nope nothing again.
http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/sea ... .y=0&go=go
Fine lets forget that. Lets try Iman of Denmark on BBC:
http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/sea ... .y=0&go=go
2 links nothing mentioning Nyborg
Fine lets try picture of Muhammad (SAW) as a pig:
http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/sea ... .y=0&go=go
Nothing.
Fine lets try something simple: Pig picture denmark
http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/sea ... .y=0&go=go
Nothing.
Nothing at all on BBC about Abu Bashar of Nyborg who supposedly was on BBC.
People speak of rumors yet believe what they want to believe.
The most famous cartoon ever (serius topic, no spam)
I don't really have time to participate in this discussion although I would like to, but I wish to add something important regarding the spreading of false images: Last Sunday in Mauritania, people were demonstrating in the streets protesting against the publication of pictures of Mohammed as a pig in a Danish and a Norweigian newspaper. This was the official information people heard in the radio and saw in the TV news, and this was the information they acted on.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
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fable
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I think we would all do well to reflect that there are people on both sides of this conflict who stand to gain by making matters as bad as possible. If we could keep the debate focused on the issues (freedom of speech, social responsibility, respect for religion, etc) instead of on the internationally hurled insults and attacks, we might actually have some stimulating conversation.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
@ CM: this [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4686536.stm"]BBC article[/url] mentions the false dispersal of a cartoon.
From the last paragraphs:
One aspect that these governments might also want to examine is how they can counter false information.
Twelve cartoons were originally published by Jyllands-Posten. None showed the Prophet with the face of a pig. Yet such a portrayal has circulated in the Middle East (The BBC was caught out and for a time showed film of this in Gaza without realizing it was not one of the 12).
The finger of suspicion has been pointed at a delegation of Danish Muslim leaders who went to the Middle East in November to publicise the cartoons. The visit was organised by Abu Laban, a leading Muslim figure in Denmark.
According to the Danish paper Ekstra Bladet, the delegation took along a pamphlet showing the 12 drawings. But the delegation also showed a number of other pictures which they claimed had insulted Muslims in Denmark. These also got into circulation.
Western diplomats appear to have missed this entirely and seem to have made no attempt to counter some of the arguments in the pamphlet or to distinguish between the various portrayals.
It might not have made much difference but it shows how rapidly propaganda can add to fuel to the fire.
I must say the search engine of the BBC site is fairly crappy, especially if you type in more than one word.
From the last paragraphs:
One aspect that these governments might also want to examine is how they can counter false information.
Twelve cartoons were originally published by Jyllands-Posten. None showed the Prophet with the face of a pig. Yet such a portrayal has circulated in the Middle East (The BBC was caught out and for a time showed film of this in Gaza without realizing it was not one of the 12).
The finger of suspicion has been pointed at a delegation of Danish Muslim leaders who went to the Middle East in November to publicise the cartoons. The visit was organised by Abu Laban, a leading Muslim figure in Denmark.
According to the Danish paper Ekstra Bladet, the delegation took along a pamphlet showing the 12 drawings. But the delegation also showed a number of other pictures which they claimed had insulted Muslims in Denmark. These also got into circulation.
Western diplomats appear to have missed this entirely and seem to have made no attempt to counter some of the arguments in the pamphlet or to distinguish between the various portrayals.
It might not have made much difference but it shows how rapidly propaganda can add to fuel to the fire.
I must say the search engine of the BBC site is fairly crappy, especially if you type in more than one word.
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
Ah thanks. In correct name on my part and the article Kar gave. Will look into this as none of the newspapers had the item in their news. I did an archive search. Thanks.
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
Full name is given elswhere as Ahmad Abu Ladan. But of course always a problem for transliteration from Arabic to Roman characters (becaus I also found it written as Ahmed).
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
Yeah you can spell names very differently. I tried Abu Bashar on Google and got everything in danish. Nothing in english save mention of Bashar-ul-Asad. Will try Abu Ladan later on.
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
Ok now i am really confused. Abu Laban/Ladan is mentioned a few times in the media. But he is not mentioned in the Arab news nor the dawn. Nothing in the Jakarta Post.
From what i can read in the blogs and and BBC is that the claim is given by a Danish media outlet called "Ekstra Bladet".
Still trying to find a muslim media outlet that actually said there was a pig picture...will post whatever i find. Lets see if i can find this pamphlet as well.
From what i can read in the blogs and and BBC is that the claim is given by a Danish media outlet called "Ekstra Bladet".
Still trying to find a muslim media outlet that actually said there was a pig picture...will post whatever i find. Lets see if i can find this pamphlet as well.
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
Heres a gooder from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm
"Demonstrators shouted "death to Denmark" and "death to France". They called for the expulsion of diplomats and soldiers, who were sent by both countries as part of international efforts in the US-led "war on terror".
"They want to test our feelings," protester Mawli Abdul Qahar Abu Israra told the BBC. They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and to their newspapers," he said.
We're at a point now where the generally apathetic North American and European masses have found something as central to their lives as relgion is to others, to rally about. Free Speech. It is something that the western world has valued as something that makes us special, and is a tremendous part of western nationality. France, US, UK, Denmark, etc do not always get along, but they are united by the concept of free speech.
We have a serious situation brewing.
A paper I read stated that "Conflicts of the future will be based on Western Arrogance vs Islamic intolerance vs Sinic assertiveness.
Now, the chinese are not involved (thank any diety you believe in), but we have a case where Western arrogance believes we can mock anybody because of our freedom of speech, opposing Islamic intolerance of any sleight to their religion.
In the interest of public safety, it'd be nice to see everyone just let this go. But I doubt it.
"Demonstrators shouted "death to Denmark" and "death to France". They called for the expulsion of diplomats and soldiers, who were sent by both countries as part of international efforts in the US-led "war on terror".
"They want to test our feelings," protester Mawli Abdul Qahar Abu Israra told the BBC. They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and to their newspapers," he said.
We're at a point now where the generally apathetic North American and European masses have found something as central to their lives as relgion is to others, to rally about. Free Speech. It is something that the western world has valued as something that makes us special, and is a tremendous part of western nationality. France, US, UK, Denmark, etc do not always get along, but they are united by the concept of free speech.
We have a serious situation brewing.
A paper I read stated that "Conflicts of the future will be based on Western Arrogance vs Islamic intolerance vs Sinic assertiveness.
Now, the chinese are not involved (thank any diety you believe in), but we have a case where Western arrogance believes we can mock anybody because of our freedom of speech, opposing Islamic intolerance of any sleight to their religion.
In the interest of public safety, it'd be nice to see everyone just let this go. But I doubt it.
The waves came crashing in like blindness.
So I just stood and listened.
So I just stood and listened.
[QUOTE=CM]<snip>
Can you provide links to where these rumors have been spread and who spread them? Secondly can you provided an english source for all of these. After all that has happened trusting Danish media would be like trusting Donald Rumsfeld on information for the Iraqi war effort.[/QUOTE]
Well - I guess you are out of luck then, because these Imans have only stated publically on danish television and none international I know of, of showing the image of Mohammed as a pig beacuse "it was send to them".
It is incredible what modern techonolgy can do - I mean the danish media having such an illreputation compared to say the islamic medias - that they will computerengenier entier interviews with people to spread lies and false information to further the entier nations single cause of ridiculing islam.
And in case this flew past you - it was sarcasme, because these "Imams" have publically stated that they had shown a drawing of Muhammed as a pig on danish television. Come of your high horse. Just because it is in the danish media it does not mean the interviews were false simply because one newspaper have shown drawings of "The Prophet".
Afterall - you just equated the entier danish media with one - read it one - newspaper.
Generalization for the win. No wonder this has blow so much out of proportion when even you can't seem to understand that there is a difference between one newspaper and twenty and an entier nation.
Can you provide links to where these rumors have been spread and who spread them? Secondly can you provided an english source for all of these. After all that has happened trusting Danish media would be like trusting Donald Rumsfeld on information for the Iraqi war effort.[/QUOTE]
Well - I guess you are out of luck then, because these Imans have only stated publically on danish television and none international I know of, of showing the image of Mohammed as a pig beacuse "it was send to them".
It is incredible what modern techonolgy can do - I mean the danish media having such an illreputation compared to say the islamic medias - that they will computerengenier entier interviews with people to spread lies and false information to further the entier nations single cause of ridiculing islam.
And in case this flew past you - it was sarcasme, because these "Imams" have publically stated that they had shown a drawing of Muhammed as a pig on danish television. Come of your high horse. Just because it is in the danish media it does not mean the interviews were false simply because one newspaper have shown drawings of "The Prophet".
Afterall - you just equated the entier danish media with one - read it one - newspaper.
Generalization for the win. No wonder this has blow so much out of proportion when even you can't seem to understand that there is a difference between one newspaper and twenty and an entier nation.
Insert signature here.
[QUOTE=C Elegans]I don't really have time to participate in this discussion although I would like to, but I wish to add something important regarding the spreading of false images: Last Sunday in Mauritania, people were demonstrating in the streets protesting against the publication of pictures of Mohammed as a pig in a Danish and a Norweigian newspaper. This was the official information people heard in the radio and saw in the TV news, and this was the information they acted on.[/QUOTE]
Ok...so I guess all this (along with Lestats BBC report) sort of concludes that media have indeed misled people when it comes to the Mohammed-drawings. Not saying media always tell the truth...because I think we all know that media likes to angle things to suit themselves or to sell more copies or whatever... But still... Call me a "homesupporter" but for some reason I do trust media in Sweden, Norway and Denmark more than I would in say Saudi Arabia, Mauritania and Indonesia...
Anyway, I guess you would have to be a moslem to really understand how bad it is to depict Momammed...especially in the way depicted in the cartoons. Like some people have stated earlier in this thread other religions are often mocked or made fun of in media. Whether its an episode of South Park or Simpsons...or whether its during an art exhibition. Just really really hard to understand how twelve cartoon pictures (and out of those 12 only 5-6 are really derogatory) can start such a mess as we're witnessing right now.
"Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion –- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven." - Mark Twain
The problem to be faced is: how to combine loyalty to one's own tradition with reverence for different traditions. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal
Ok...so I guess all this (along with Lestats BBC report) sort of concludes that media have indeed misled people when it comes to the Mohammed-drawings. Not saying media always tell the truth...because I think we all know that media likes to angle things to suit themselves or to sell more copies or whatever... But still... Call me a "homesupporter" but for some reason I do trust media in Sweden, Norway and Denmark more than I would in say Saudi Arabia, Mauritania and Indonesia...
Anyway, I guess you would have to be a moslem to really understand how bad it is to depict Momammed...especially in the way depicted in the cartoons. Like some people have stated earlier in this thread other religions are often mocked or made fun of in media. Whether its an episode of South Park or Simpsons...or whether its during an art exhibition. Just really really hard to understand how twelve cartoon pictures (and out of those 12 only 5-6 are really derogatory) can start such a mess as we're witnessing right now.
"Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion –- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven." - Mark Twain
The problem to be faced is: how to combine loyalty to one's own tradition with reverence for different traditions. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal
“Child abuse doesn’t have to mean broken bones and black marks. Young growing tissues are far more vulnerable to carcinogens than those of adults.
Knowingly subjecting children to it is child abuse.”
Knowingly subjecting children to it is child abuse.”
Well - it seems that at least there is some sanity in this world
A muslim organisation in Denmark is arranging protest tonight in Denmark against the violence towards amongst other things danish embassies.
The spokesperson for the organisations says that eventhough he is offended by the drawings he does not wish a thightening of the legislation.
This buisness is between the offending newspaper and the offended muslims, and through the courts which are the entity handeling such things in free democratic countries - and not through the usage of violence. It is very likely that the initinal judgement of the drawings will be appealed to a higher court as well, seeing as we have 3 judicial instances in this nation and you can appeal the nature of a verdict through two of them (but only the sentence to the third and highest instance).
It would be interesting to see how smooth things can go when people use sanity instead of the madness displayed.
A muslim organisation in Denmark is arranging protest tonight in Denmark against the violence towards amongst other things danish embassies.
The spokesperson for the organisations says that eventhough he is offended by the drawings he does not wish a thightening of the legislation.
This buisness is between the offending newspaper and the offended muslims, and through the courts which are the entity handeling such things in free democratic countries - and not through the usage of violence. It is very likely that the initinal judgement of the drawings will be appealed to a higher court as well, seeing as we have 3 judicial instances in this nation and you can appeal the nature of a verdict through two of them (but only the sentence to the third and highest instance).
It would be interesting to see how smooth things can go when people use sanity instead of the madness displayed.
Insert signature here.
This is supposedly the "Muhammed as a pig" picture which the danish Imams travelled the middel east showing of as an example of how muslims where treated in Denmark.
http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php?id=3612603&forside
(sorry - link is to danish news site, which I know some automatically find biased)
The jist of the story is that the picture was taken at a french festival at sorts where the goal was to "squeel like a pig"
D ??) in the town of Trie-sur-Baines the 15. august 2005.
The imams in question have not wanted to comment on these new findings.
http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php?id=3612603&forside
(sorry - link is to danish news site, which I know some automatically find biased)
The jist of the story is that the picture was taken at a french festival at sorts where the goal was to "squeel like a pig"
D ??) in the town of Trie-sur-Baines the 15. august 2005.The imams in question have not wanted to comment on these new findings.
Insert signature here.
This is a [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=KOEKP1QN3UZYLQFIQMGSFFOAVCBQWIV0?view=BLOGDETAIL&grid=P30&blog=newsdesk&xml=/news/2006/02/07/bleurope107.xml"]link to a Daily Telegraph reporter's blog[/url] that tries to find out the how and what of these "mystery" cartoons. For context, best read the earlier ones to.
I quote:
As also mentioned, though the cartoon might have originated in this harmless French contest, it might still have been plucked of the internet and used in hate mail.
I quote:
That the broadsheets in the Islamic world hardly mention it or even not, doesn't mean a lot. It only needs to be picked up by a few local radiostations and slighly distorted to get broad local spread. In poorer countries (like Mauritania) and I'd imagine in the Occupied Territories (with all the roadblocks) radio is by far the more penetrating of the media.The imams say the images were sent, anonymously, as hate mail to Danish Muslims who had written to the newspapers about the cartoon row.
There are problems with their story, as this blog and others have rehearsed before - notably the failure of the imams and activists to produce the original hate letters, or let Danish reporters meet the recipients. But we do not know, and probably never will. And I'm not convinced glee is the right reaction towards any part of this depressing story.
As also mentioned, though the cartoon might have originated in this harmless French contest, it might still have been plucked of the internet and used in hate mail.
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
Interesting reading in todays Aftonbladet (a swedish newspaper).
[url="http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/debatt/story/0,2789,775234,00.html"]http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/debatt/story/0,2789,775234,00.html[/url]
Seems Ahmed Akkari (spokesman for 27 moslem congregations in Denmark) is in trouble in Denmark. Apparently Akkari was one of the leaders of a moslem delegation that travelled to the Middle-east trying to rally support against the Danish Mohammed-cartoons.
Nothing special you might think...if it wasnt for the fact that Akkari has admitted that the 43-page dossier shown in Egypt, Libanon etc not only consisted of the 12 cartoons but also 3 extra extremely derogatory pictures that were NOT published by Jyllands-Posten. Pathetically enough this Mr Akkari is now trying to save his reputation in Denmark by doing completely crazy statements....maybe Xandax has some more information on this...
Oh...and just to close things off...the biggest Newspaper in Iran (the Hamshari) started an international drawing competition on monday. Drawing....well....jews in the holocaust during the 2nd world war. The reason for this, according to editor Farid Mortavazi, is to test "western" freedom of speech...
[url="http://www.journalisten.se/a.aspx?article_id=10532"]http://www.journalisten.se/a.aspx?article_id=10532[/url]
[url="http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/debatt/story/0,2789,775234,00.html"]http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/debatt/story/0,2789,775234,00.html[/url]
Seems Ahmed Akkari (spokesman for 27 moslem congregations in Denmark) is in trouble in Denmark. Apparently Akkari was one of the leaders of a moslem delegation that travelled to the Middle-east trying to rally support against the Danish Mohammed-cartoons.
Nothing special you might think...if it wasnt for the fact that Akkari has admitted that the 43-page dossier shown in Egypt, Libanon etc not only consisted of the 12 cartoons but also 3 extra extremely derogatory pictures that were NOT published by Jyllands-Posten. Pathetically enough this Mr Akkari is now trying to save his reputation in Denmark by doing completely crazy statements....maybe Xandax has some more information on this...
Oh...and just to close things off...the biggest Newspaper in Iran (the Hamshari) started an international drawing competition on monday. Drawing....well....jews in the holocaust during the 2nd world war. The reason for this, according to editor Farid Mortavazi, is to test "western" freedom of speech...
[url="http://www.journalisten.se/a.aspx?article_id=10532"]http://www.journalisten.se/a.aspx?article_id=10532[/url]
“Child abuse doesn’t have to mean broken bones and black marks. Young growing tissues are far more vulnerable to carcinogens than those of adults.
Knowingly subjecting children to it is child abuse.”
Knowingly subjecting children to it is child abuse.”
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=Xandax]
Over a couple of drawings..... [/QUOTE]
A storm on a glass of water. But that's due to Bushism, mixed with imperialism, mixed with poverty and lack of education, mixed with religious blind fanatism, etc ad infinitum, making people turn into easy, cheap maneuver masses.
We should be smarter as a species. Honestly, I dont know how we're still living.
Edit - oh and btw, I'm quite happy that the discussion has cooled, and that Brazilian newspapers have not yet tried to intervein on that thing. We have a few muslim communities scattered around, they are stunned with the violence (according to a local radio station news) and also outraged with the cartoons themselves, but they think this should be discussed more properly.
Over a couple of drawings.....
[/QUOTE]A storm on a glass of water. But that's due to Bushism, mixed with imperialism, mixed with poverty and lack of education, mixed with religious blind fanatism, etc ad infinitum, making people turn into easy, cheap maneuver masses.
We should be smarter as a species. Honestly, I dont know how we're still living.
Edit - oh and btw, I'm quite happy that the discussion has cooled, and that Brazilian newspapers have not yet tried to intervein on that thing. We have a few muslim communities scattered around, they are stunned with the violence (according to a local radio station news) and also outraged with the cartoons themselves, but they think this should be discussed more properly.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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fable
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[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]A storm on a glass of water. But that's due to Bushism, mixed with imperialism, mixed with poverty and lack of education, mixed with religious blind fanatism, etc ad infinitum, making people turn into easy, cheap maneuver masses.[/quote]
Absolutely not something that small, Luis. This is a symptom of some very serious and largescale issues that politicians will not address: the internationalization of politics and the sense of ethnic memory in many cultures. Fundamentalist Christians now maintain numerous international dailies on the Web that let them "keep track" of whether there are advances or retreats in the Army of the Lord's purpose. Black nations take offense when one is targeted for reprisals of any sort by a former European colonial power. Central and Eastern European countries recall longstanding hatreds on a national scale, and claims to land that most recently resulted in such activities as the horrific Yugoslavian War, and the terrifying occupation of Cechnya that nobody wants to notice for fear of offending oil-rich Russia. Where ethnic memory is concerned, these conflicts are passed on via oral culture. The West, with its faddish nature and memory that goes back no more than a few months, has trouble understanding any of it, and nobody to force the education when there are so many greater attractions to commercial entertainment.
Nor is iit any longer possible to simply insult, intentionally or otherwise, a player on the international diplomatic scene simply because they have a very small presence in your native land, and because you fear losing the support of rightwing governmental parties. Where those small groups may once have only been able to mobilize the ponderous machinery of international pressure in a matter of years, now it takes days, at worst. And when people feel righteously indignant that their religion has been insulted, they are not always thinking straight, and may be willing to resort to intellectually dishonest means to convey an emotional truth back to their homeland. Combine all this with the fact that this same homeland has a lengthy ethnic history of mistrust of Europeans, with recent justification involving military invasion, occupation and summary arrests, and you have--not a tempest in a teacup, but a tsunami under a very thin veneer of diplomacy, waiting to be punctured and explode through at any given moment.
The best that can be hoped for, I think, is for matters to simmer down, for all that rage to once again be temporarily bottled up, as politicians who don't want to deal with problems speak of the need to avoid violence and for dialog. But they don't want to acknowledge the giant elephants in their living rooms: the fact that Israel has yet to be censured by the Security Council for being in breach of a host of UN resolutions; its unwilllingness to accept certain UN-agreed borders; the unwillingness of Arabic MidEastern nations to declare a formal end to hostilities with Israel; an unwillingness for Arabic MidEastern govenrments to create modern governmental structures that are politically and economically democratic; a Amero-European acknowledgement that it has no business invading other sovreign nations without prior UN approval; and a Palestinian state whose occupants were forced to leave more than 50 years ago, and are not allowed back to their lands under any diplomatically conceived agreement.
Absolutely not something that small, Luis. This is a symptom of some very serious and largescale issues that politicians will not address: the internationalization of politics and the sense of ethnic memory in many cultures. Fundamentalist Christians now maintain numerous international dailies on the Web that let them "keep track" of whether there are advances or retreats in the Army of the Lord's purpose. Black nations take offense when one is targeted for reprisals of any sort by a former European colonial power. Central and Eastern European countries recall longstanding hatreds on a national scale, and claims to land that most recently resulted in such activities as the horrific Yugoslavian War, and the terrifying occupation of Cechnya that nobody wants to notice for fear of offending oil-rich Russia. Where ethnic memory is concerned, these conflicts are passed on via oral culture. The West, with its faddish nature and memory that goes back no more than a few months, has trouble understanding any of it, and nobody to force the education when there are so many greater attractions to commercial entertainment.
Nor is iit any longer possible to simply insult, intentionally or otherwise, a player on the international diplomatic scene simply because they have a very small presence in your native land, and because you fear losing the support of rightwing governmental parties. Where those small groups may once have only been able to mobilize the ponderous machinery of international pressure in a matter of years, now it takes days, at worst. And when people feel righteously indignant that their religion has been insulted, they are not always thinking straight, and may be willing to resort to intellectually dishonest means to convey an emotional truth back to their homeland. Combine all this with the fact that this same homeland has a lengthy ethnic history of mistrust of Europeans, with recent justification involving military invasion, occupation and summary arrests, and you have--not a tempest in a teacup, but a tsunami under a very thin veneer of diplomacy, waiting to be punctured and explode through at any given moment.
The best that can be hoped for, I think, is for matters to simmer down, for all that rage to once again be temporarily bottled up, as politicians who don't want to deal with problems speak of the need to avoid violence and for dialog. But they don't want to acknowledge the giant elephants in their living rooms: the fact that Israel has yet to be censured by the Security Council for being in breach of a host of UN resolutions; its unwilllingness to accept certain UN-agreed borders; the unwillingness of Arabic MidEastern nations to declare a formal end to hostilities with Israel; an unwillingness for Arabic MidEastern govenrments to create modern governmental structures that are politically and economically democratic; a Amero-European acknowledgement that it has no business invading other sovreign nations without prior UN approval; and a Palestinian state whose occupants were forced to leave more than 50 years ago, and are not allowed back to their lands under any diplomatically conceived agreement.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]
Edit - oh and btw, I'm quite happy that the discussion has cooled,[/QUOTE]
Luis clapping with one hand makes no sound. If you are going to have only one point of view represented of course things will have calmed down. Sadly i don't have the time to discuss this as work is hell.
Edit - oh and btw, I'm quite happy that the discussion has cooled,[/QUOTE]
Luis clapping with one hand makes no sound. If you are going to have only one point of view represented of course things will have calmed down. Sadly i don't have the time to discuss this as work is hell.
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
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Luis Antonio
- Posts: 9103
- Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 11:00 am
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[QUOTE=fable]Absolutely not something that small, Luis. This is a symptom of some very serious and largescale issues that politicians will not address: the internationalization of politics and the sense of ethnic memory in many cultures. Fundamentalist Christians now maintain numerous international dailies on the Web that let them "keep track" of whether there are advances or retreats in the Army of the Lord's purpose. Black nations take offense when one is targeted for reprisals of any sort by a former European colonial power. Central and Eastern European countries recall longstanding hatreds on a national scale, and claims to land that most recently resulted in such activities as the horrific Yugoslavian War, and the terrifying occupation of Cechnya that nobody wants to notice for fear of offending oil-rich Russia. Where ethnic memory is concerned, these conflicts are passed on via oral culture. The West, with its faddish nature and memory that goes back no more than a few months, has trouble understanding any of it, and nobody to force the education when there are so many greater attractions to commercial entertainment.[/QUOTE]
Yes, what you say is that we have many undecided structural problems, many uneducated agreements, when people live with those historic problems without actually solving them. I mean that the cartoon as a form to unleash all this terror is something stupid, the cartoon thing and the revolt that it has generated is really the stupid thing. We can solve these kinds of problems mostly generated by poverty and by one goverment trying to <insert f word here> the other on international commerce agreements even if that country is no real menace of competition. African countries need lots of help, specially on creating conditions for international purchase and sales. South american countries too. US plans to ban a ridiculous taxation over brazilian steel that has disrupted possibilities of trades for years over a dumping acusation, and that was dealed with, that was solved. It is smaller than years of domination or crusades to destroy the unfaithfull, but it is a hard fight too.
[QUOTE=fable]Nor is iit any longer possible to simply insult, intentionally or otherwise, a player on the international diplomatic scene simply because they have a very small presence in your native land, and because you fear losing the support of rightwing governmental parties. Where those small groups may once have only been able to mobilize the ponderous machinery of international pressure in a matter of years, now it takes days, at worst. And when people feel righteously indignant that their religion has been insulted, they are not always thinking straight, and may be willing to resort to intellectually dishonest means to convey an emotional truth back to their homeland. Combine all this with the fact that this same homeland has a lengthy ethnic history of mistrust of Europeans, with recent justification involving military invasion, occupation and summary arrests, and you have--not a tempest in a teacup, but a tsunami under a very thin veneer of diplomacy, waiting to be punctured and explode through at any given moment. [/QUOTE]
That is result of the lack of judgement and of the racism of the people involved. The peoples in europe just thought that simply arresting and avoiding new foreign people to come to their place would solve the situation. It created another situation instead - the hatred for immigrants is traded for the hate to europe itself. Yes, that is a tsunami, but I was refering to the cartoons themselves. I meant the cartoons are a violation of the Islam fundamentalist laws yes, but if the other issues were dealt properly, would this be such a crisis? if Europe and US hadnt done this "hunt on the impious" across the globe, hunting people who seem to be exclusively muslims, would this be happening today or would it be just the muslim community showing itself disgusted with the cartoons and the newspaper apologizing? would there be a cartoon in the first place?
[QUOTE=fable]The best that can be hoped for, I think, is for matters to simmer down, for all that rage to once again be temporarily bottled up, as politicians who don't want to deal with problems speak of the need to avoid violence and for dialog. <...> occupants were forced to leave more than 50 years ago, and are not allowed back to their lands under any diplomatically conceived agreement.[/QUOTE]
I agree, that should be done, among other things. Neutrality is no longer safe, and positions must be taken.
@Fas, I'll talk to you over msn. later.
Yes, what you say is that we have many undecided structural problems, many uneducated agreements, when people live with those historic problems without actually solving them. I mean that the cartoon as a form to unleash all this terror is something stupid, the cartoon thing and the revolt that it has generated is really the stupid thing. We can solve these kinds of problems mostly generated by poverty and by one goverment trying to <insert f word here> the other on international commerce agreements even if that country is no real menace of competition. African countries need lots of help, specially on creating conditions for international purchase and sales. South american countries too. US plans to ban a ridiculous taxation over brazilian steel that has disrupted possibilities of trades for years over a dumping acusation, and that was dealed with, that was solved. It is smaller than years of domination or crusades to destroy the unfaithfull, but it is a hard fight too.
[QUOTE=fable]Nor is iit any longer possible to simply insult, intentionally or otherwise, a player on the international diplomatic scene simply because they have a very small presence in your native land, and because you fear losing the support of rightwing governmental parties. Where those small groups may once have only been able to mobilize the ponderous machinery of international pressure in a matter of years, now it takes days, at worst. And when people feel righteously indignant that their religion has been insulted, they are not always thinking straight, and may be willing to resort to intellectually dishonest means to convey an emotional truth back to their homeland. Combine all this with the fact that this same homeland has a lengthy ethnic history of mistrust of Europeans, with recent justification involving military invasion, occupation and summary arrests, and you have--not a tempest in a teacup, but a tsunami under a very thin veneer of diplomacy, waiting to be punctured and explode through at any given moment. [/QUOTE]
That is result of the lack of judgement and of the racism of the people involved. The peoples in europe just thought that simply arresting and avoiding new foreign people to come to their place would solve the situation. It created another situation instead - the hatred for immigrants is traded for the hate to europe itself. Yes, that is a tsunami, but I was refering to the cartoons themselves. I meant the cartoons are a violation of the Islam fundamentalist laws yes, but if the other issues were dealt properly, would this be such a crisis? if Europe and US hadnt done this "hunt on the impious" across the globe, hunting people who seem to be exclusively muslims, would this be happening today or would it be just the muslim community showing itself disgusted with the cartoons and the newspaper apologizing? would there be a cartoon in the first place?
[QUOTE=fable]The best that can be hoped for, I think, is for matters to simmer down, for all that rage to once again be temporarily bottled up, as politicians who don't want to deal with problems speak of the need to avoid violence and for dialog. <...> occupants were forced to leave more than 50 years ago, and are not allowed back to their lands under any diplomatically conceived agreement.[/QUOTE]
I agree, that should be done, among other things. Neutrality is no longer safe, and positions must be taken.
@Fas, I'll talk to you over msn. later.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
No doubt Fable is correct.
There is much much more to this then the twelve measely drawings, of which not even all of them were showing Mohammed, infact of the twelve I can think of once which might be offensive which is the one with the bomb as a turban, however, when viewed in the context that many terror acts have been committed and threatend over the last couple of years in the name of Islam, it is hardly a devestating drawing to the religon.
When looking objectively at this situation, many drawings of Mohammed exists and many many images exists in Islam despite the rules against such things. So images of Mohammed is nothing new.
Also I'd be very shocked if offensive images of other nations and races which aren't muslim doesn't exists in various medias in the region, and the iranian newspaper wanting to depict the holocaust just further illustrates this. Secondly if it was because it hurt the religon, then the numerous pictures of terrorists and kidnappers and murderes which are shown would be much more damageing to the belivers.
So why these 12 cartoons and why now, that is the interesting issue.
Well - I have my theories, and it does involve the "danish" Imams fuels combined with the fact that Denmark is not a terrifying country compared to the US or UK. Also seeing as our economy is only marginally tied to the Middel East, they can survive withouth our products and our foreign aid.
Had the imams not travelled around (with false information or not) I really question whether or not this would have reached any kind of scale as it has now, because it wasn't months after that any significant reactions occured.
I think this has far more internal-region politics about it then any sort of defence of "The Prohpet".
Various paramilitary groups, such as taliban in Afganistan and possible the election in Palenstine seaking to gain support for their groups.
Opperisitions in the somewhat "western-accepting" countries seaking to gain additional influence with the more pro-western powerholders, and of course the Iran vs. EU/US nuclear trouble where Iran now has something to remove focus somewhat from their nuclear program.
I'm very sure all these factors play into the equation of why this has blown so much out of proportion now.
The solution? Well - I frankly don't know any is possible other then "time".
The newspaper has appologized, the PM of Denmark has as much as he can withouth breaking danish law and constitution. The Queen can't appologize because she is but a figurehead- albeit expensive one.
At least some more moderate danish muslims are trying to soothe things over and clear up misunderstandings (such as the fact that it is 12 pictures, not 120; There is none of Mohammed as a woman, pig or santa claus; the fact that the paper is not government controlled/owned; That the Koran has not been burned (along anything else) at any demonstrations in this nation and so on....) as well as support from several leaders of countries both western and muslims that try the same....
some sanity amongst the madness of fundamentalisme does exist, however the unfortunate consequence of this could very well be the shift to the political right for some percentage of voters in Denmark as well for a decreased foreign aid from this nation to muslim countries such as Palenstine.
There is much much more to this then the twelve measely drawings, of which not even all of them were showing Mohammed, infact of the twelve I can think of once which might be offensive which is the one with the bomb as a turban, however, when viewed in the context that many terror acts have been committed and threatend over the last couple of years in the name of Islam, it is hardly a devestating drawing to the religon.
When looking objectively at this situation, many drawings of Mohammed exists and many many images exists in Islam despite the rules against such things. So images of Mohammed is nothing new.
Also I'd be very shocked if offensive images of other nations and races which aren't muslim doesn't exists in various medias in the region, and the iranian newspaper wanting to depict the holocaust just further illustrates this. Secondly if it was because it hurt the religon, then the numerous pictures of terrorists and kidnappers and murderes which are shown would be much more damageing to the belivers.
So why these 12 cartoons and why now, that is the interesting issue.
Well - I have my theories, and it does involve the "danish" Imams fuels combined with the fact that Denmark is not a terrifying country compared to the US or UK. Also seeing as our economy is only marginally tied to the Middel East, they can survive withouth our products and our foreign aid.
Had the imams not travelled around (with false information or not) I really question whether or not this would have reached any kind of scale as it has now, because it wasn't months after that any significant reactions occured.
I think this has far more internal-region politics about it then any sort of defence of "The Prohpet".
Various paramilitary groups, such as taliban in Afganistan and possible the election in Palenstine seaking to gain support for their groups.
Opperisitions in the somewhat "western-accepting" countries seaking to gain additional influence with the more pro-western powerholders, and of course the Iran vs. EU/US nuclear trouble where Iran now has something to remove focus somewhat from their nuclear program.
I'm very sure all these factors play into the equation of why this has blown so much out of proportion now.
The solution? Well - I frankly don't know any is possible other then "time".
The newspaper has appologized, the PM of Denmark has as much as he can withouth breaking danish law and constitution. The Queen can't appologize because she is but a figurehead- albeit expensive one.
At least some more moderate danish muslims are trying to soothe things over and clear up misunderstandings (such as the fact that it is 12 pictures, not 120; There is none of Mohammed as a woman, pig or santa claus; the fact that the paper is not government controlled/owned; That the Koran has not been burned (along anything else) at any demonstrations in this nation and so on....) as well as support from several leaders of countries both western and muslims that try the same....
some sanity amongst the madness of fundamentalisme does exist, however the unfortunate consequence of this could very well be the shift to the political right for some percentage of voters in Denmark as well for a decreased foreign aid from this nation to muslim countries such as Palenstine.
Insert signature here.