Alternative fuels

Ciba_Blue · Post by **Ciba_Blue** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:49 am

I keep seeing commercials on tv about people converting their engines over to run off of veggie oil or fry oil and stuff like that. They always talk about how they get it from fast food restaurants and stuff like that, which made me wonder... How long before these places start taking advantage of the situation and charging a fee to fill up on their old used oil lol.. You know it's gonna happen, no monopoly will sit back and watch free money slide out of their hands.. Capitalism at it's best..

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:52 am

This is true. However...I have worked at restaurants. If they do not give it away, they are forced to pay for someone to come and collect it, just like trash. Technically, giving it away to people is saving them money.

Ciba_Blue · Post by **Ciba_Blue** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:05 am

Yeah true, until the demand for it increases. Or, they do what they did in the one aqua teen hunger force episode and drag the huge drums into the woods, tip it, and run like hell.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:34 am

Grown alternative fuel is not a good idea, regarding the monopoly you put in the hands of the producers, however it is a good thing. The restaurant oil can be used - a guy from Brazil developed a system that uses chicken fat from ovens, and it polutes less than Vehicular Natural Gas. We, in brazil, are pioneers into the use of Ethanol and alternative fuels for cars. The only problem is, our projects like the pro-alcohol were stopped due to the lack of government interest. And the incentives from the petroleum industry.

penguin_king · Post by **penguin_king** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:12 pm

at school a few weeks ago i watched a video showing how some power plants are burning chicken poop for energy... interesting.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:04 am

I run my SUV (hey I live in a forrest with at least 15kms of rough dirt road to the first bit of tar) on biodeisel. Smells like your cooking chips

. - Curdis !

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:50 am

Dad had an Ethanol car once. Very good, very cheap, very nice. It smells different too, and it throws a lot of water instead of Co2 after it burns. My uncle had a diesel car, which is kinda rare here. It is nice too, and very cheap. Also, there's GNV - lets say the the Vehicular Natural Gas can reduce in 50% the costs of fuel depending on the engine. For example, my cousin has a V6 engine pickup, which is running with GNV. The gas stinks on its burn, but he reduced his costs with fuel to half, despite the 10% potency lost.

Brazil is a very good alternative fuel producer. We've researched a lot on these areas. As for me, I plan on buying a car that may run either with Ethanol or Gasoline, this time

Ciba_Blue · Post by **Ciba_Blue** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:46 am

Well Luis, that's because Brazil actually cares lol, unlike most of the ignorant Americans here in the U.S. It's scary to see hummers driving around burning 7 mpg... It's insane lol. Diesel is a much purer gas, its much more pure then normal gas, so it's an economically wiser choice, but also more expensive here and other than volvos and some older mercedes, there aren't many cars running off diesel here. I'm all for alternative fuels, and I think that more people should convert their engines over. Theres very little conservation here in the U.S. and unless alternative fuels have more thought put into them, the depletion of oil and natural fossil fuels is very much a realty.

Ashen · Post by **Ashen** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:16 am

Actually it's not so much the cars that are the problem, it's the planes. I mean we are the biggest pollutors out there but to develop a motor that would work on something as even semi-friendly env. fuel - I do not see it. I don't think there is any kind of drive for it, the difficulties are huge, money would be through the roof and people are not willing. And I am sure it could be done but alas.

Monolith · Post by **Monolith** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:06 am

Here in Germany it's lead-free and diesel fuel - mostly the former. But the usage of natural gas and especially LPG ("Liquefied Petroleum Gas") is increasing. It's cheaper and cleaner. Most cars can get an engine upgrade after which they can use both lead-free or natural gas/LPG. Such an upgrade isn't cheap - especially here in Germany (in Eastern European countries you might pay half as much). And it's not possible with any car.

der Moench · Post by **der Moench** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:29 pm

Happy Anniversary, Rudolf!

[QUOTE=Ciba_Blue]... It's insane lol. Diesel is a much purer gas, its much more pure then normal gas, so it's an economically wiser choice, but also more expensive here ...[/QUOTE]

I dunno what you consider a "pure" fuel. Diesel is less refined, which means less energy goes into the production of a gallon of diesel than into a gallon of gasoline (though much more energy goes into the production of a gallon of biodiesel than goes into either diesel or gas).

However, diesel is, in some respects, much "dirtier" than gas. It tends to have sulfur in it (though the US is regulating that starting this year down to almost neglible levels) so it tends to create nasty sulfur compunds in it's emmissions. Also, diesels tend to put out more particulate matter (evidenced by soot and smoke) than gasoline engines.

On the other hand, the diesel cycle is more efficient than the standard gasoline cycle, and diesel has more energy content than gasoline, so you get better mileage. And new technologies coming on-line in diesel engines will (IMHO) make them far cleaner than gasoline, whether they are running on biodiesel or vegetable oil or just plain ol' diesel. For example, do a google search on "diesel particulate trap," or "bluetec diesel."

I myself drive a VW TDI, and think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread ... well, I thought it was until Mercedes unveiled it's new E320 CDI Bluetec diesel - Gods how I want one of those!!! Sadly, the $52,000 base price will keep me away until I win the lottery.

Anyway, if you want some good info on diesel, hit Wikipedia under "diesel engine." Today, by the way, is the anniversary (1893) of Rudolf Diesel's patent on the engine! At the end of the Wiki entry there is an external link to a page that talks all about running diesels on veggie oil. Or, hit my favorite site: http://www.tdiclub.com. There is a great forum there willing to answer any questions. I'm there under the name der Moench, too!

Peace.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:57 pm

@Moench: Good to see you here. May your beer keg never get dry! Now, regarding diesel, I guess he means that diesel poluents are more quickly absorbed back by the nature. Or at least I've heard so, but I have no conclusive proof.

Woozaii · Post by **Woozaii** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:47 pm

My friend made a very interesting calculation about this. He figured out, that if all energy supplies in the world had depleted, our only option that was left was: HAMPSTER ENERGY!!

Basically that means, that a hampster runs around in a wheel, and produces power like that. However, to power a small city like Århus (just about 3.000.00 people) would take 2.700.00 billion hampsters! And if we say each hampster gets 40 cm's of space, it would take an area twice the size of Africa to get room for all the hampsters! But these hampsters would also need food, and someone has to pay for the cages, etc, etc. i cant do it right now, but it all ran up in, about, 255 danish crowns for cages and stuff, and then 100 danish crowns every day after that. On one year it would be something massive.

You can figure it out yourself.
Just establishing it would cost: 2.700.00 Billions X 255 danish crowns = ???

And every day after that would cost: 2.700.00 billions X 100 danish crowns = ???

Seven danish crowns is about one euro.

Athena · Post by **Athena** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:56 pm

I have one thing to say here.
Anything that is hydrocarbon based can be replaced by carbohydrates.
Translation; Hemp can replace motor oil and end the nonsence in Iraq and Alaska.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:25 pm

The stuff does grow like weeds too. Wonderful idea.

Phreddie · Post by **Phreddie** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:04 pm

[QUOTE=Athena]I have one thing to say here.
Anything that is hydrocarbon based can be replaced by carbohydrates.
Translation; Hemp can replace motor oil and end the nonsence in Iraq and Alaska.[/QUOTE]
... It might end some of the nonsense, only problem is Bush would go to war with the Indian Reservations to get all the hemp he could...

Ive also been seeing some commercials floating around that have abunch of people standing in/around a corn field talking about using alcohol as a fuel.

der Moench · Post by **der Moench** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 pm

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]@Moench: Good to see you here. May your beer keg never get dry! Now, regarding diesel, I guess he means that diesel poluents are more quickly absorbed back by the nature. Or at least I've heard so, but I have no conclusive proof.

[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Luis! It's been long enough, I didn't think anyone would know me.

Re: diesel emissions returning to earth ... well, diesel creates (among other things) what are called NOx and SOx (nitrogen/oxygen compounds and sulfur/oxygen compounds). Both will cause acid rain formation, which is not cool. Diesel also produces particulate matter (soot, smoke). This stuff tends to fall back to earth, yes, but it also has a habit of getting into people's lungs and (most likely) helping along cancer.

Here is a web page that is short and direct about diesel emissions (and also sells catalytic technology for reducing said emissions):

http://www.nett.ca/faq_diesel.html

That said, diesel technology has come a long, long way since the days of black smoke belching diesels of the '70s (when the US first started looking at them to help during the energy crisis of the time).

Want a cool car that does 69 miles to the (diesel) gallon? Check out the VW EcoRacer:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/12 ... er_pre.php

Want a cool car that does 157 miles to the (diesel) gallon? Check out the Loremo:

http://www.loremo.com/index_en.php

Sadly, the while the former is a fully-functional, road-ready, concept car VW has no plans to put it into production (the carbon-fiber body would make it pricey); and Ralph Nader won't let the latter be built in the US (he would consider it "unsafe at any speed").

But I still view these sorts of advances far more promising than things like hybrids or fuel cell cars or hydrogen cars or what have you. Unless someone comes along with fusion in a bottle, I really think people are going to have to start thinking more about diesel than they have in the past. Just my 2 cents.

Peace.

(Edit: changed Loremo web page to home page rather than data page.)

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:26 pm

[QUOTE=Athena]I have one thing to say here.
Anything that is hydrocarbon based can be replaced by carbohydrates. [/QUOTE]
That's the idea behind veggie oil, too.

Solar power has always been kind-of dismissed, but it's technology is still advancing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuna
If it's currently propelling a car, it might do the same in the future, for many cars.

@der moench: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car More concepty; more impressive.

der Moench · Post by **der Moench** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:34 pm

[QUOTE=Athena]I have one thing to say here.
Anything that is hydrocarbon based can be replaced by carbohydrates.
Translation; Hemp can replace motor oil and end the nonsence in Iraq and Alaska.[/QUOTE]

It may be true, but ... if I recall correctly, the statistic I read said that to supply Germany with enough biodiesel fuel to run all of it's automobiles, all agriculture in the nation would have to change over to producing rape seed (one of the sources for biodiesel at this time).

Now, statistics like those are tricky things ... who knows how the calculation was made - did they assume diesel cars getting 45 mpg, or 70 mpg, or 160 mpg (any of which can be obtained by diesel at this time, as I mention, above)? Most likely the first, which means they could do considerably better, but ... the overall fact is that it takes a lot of space and energy to create fuel from bio-matter. I'm not saying that it is bad or wrong, but at this time it is not as attractive as it could be.

Peace.

der Moench · Post by **der Moench** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:40 pm

[QUOTE=ik911]@der moench: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car More concepty; more impressive.[/QUOTE]

Hey! I hadn't seen that one! I like it, but you are right: that one gets far into the "concept car" category. One reason I find the EcoRacer so impressive is that it really is a car that could be produced and sold, today, if VW saw any possibility of it being bought at the price it would take to sell for a profit...

Peace.