Underworld from the point of view of the Camarilla, The Masquerade? Anyone?

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:07 pm

Hi

I understand that Selene’s high tech clan is obviously, a Sabbat one, however, they follow some rules of the masquerade, and they don’t expose their existence.

They don’t need a formal permission to “embrace”, or, as they say, “vampirize” a human. If any human knows about their existence, they don’t need to kill him… hm, this is even better then Camarilla law.

Of the Kindred disciplines, she uses only the Celerity (because of the artificial blood she drinks, he has almost no magic?).

Obviously, her Humanity is very low. She does not (can not?) erase memories, hence, before they invented the artificial blood she had to actually kill humans.

Her clan is almost identical to the clan in “Blade” – also a high-tech clan.

I hope, P&P fans can give more details and classify her clan ?

[my English is far from perfect, I am Russian who lives in France]

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:36 pm

It would be difficult to try and hook Underworld into V:TM... In all honesty, right next to Blade and Buffy, Underworld is easily one of the worst vampire films I've ever seen.

You would be right in saying she seems to only use Celerity, in fact short of some "Crawling along the roof" thats done, thats the only vampire-esque power thats used in the entier film... Gun-Fu not really being anything I'm familar with.

As for her sect, Sabbat or Cammerilla. The group shes with seems well funded, has Elders in charge, upholds the Masquerade and works independant of each other... It sounds very Cammerilla to me. However, as you pointed out, their lack of laws in some other departments makes them seem a little more Sabbat. I'd be leaning towards a very lazy Cammerilla.

I'm not sure about her Humanity. The fact that she still belives she feels "love" suggests it might be higher then we first suspect, and if we put her in a V:TM setting then she wouldn't have to kill in order to feed from humans... In fact, that shes willing to switch to blood that doesn't come from a hot, living mortal vessal suggests that she might be around the 6-7 mark.

As for clan.. Ah... Hmmm... I don't really know what to say. She doesn't display any kind of individuality or real emotoin or quirks through the entier film. That might be the script and acting, or it might... As you suggested... Reflect a low humanity. Maybe shes a clanless vampire, hence why the others don't seem to like her very much, but are more then willing to use her as a pawn.

Your English was excellent, better then mine in most cases.

As for good Vampire shows, I suggest Ultravoilet. It's really quite awesome... The TV show, NOT the movie!!!

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:32 am

In fact, that shes willing to switch to blood that doesn't come from a hot, living mortal vessal suggests that she might be around the 6-7 mark.

BTW, I was always wondering if a kindred with a very high humanity (10) should become depressive and suicidal?

Maybe shes a clanless vampire, hence why the others don't seem to like her very much, but are more then willing to use her as a pawn.

Others ? in her clan – residing in that chateau? So, you can identify the clan of other members of her group ?

As for good Vampire shows, I suggest Ultravoilet. It's really quite awesome... The TV show, NOT the movie!!!

You mean, this one: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0169501/
??

Anyway, it would be interesting to make a crossover between the Bloodlines and the Underworld.

For example, Selene’s high tech clan... They know that the idea of the Masquerade is doomed – it is just a matter of time when the FBI will find out about them, and will begin the experiments on DNA and other modern stuff (like that guy in the game, you remember him, in the Chinatown…)

So they decide to make a first step, contact the government, violating the Masquerade, which leads to the conflict with the other Kindred. In can be the main plot line.

The funny thing, I think, is that in the modern world people can accept the existence of the Kindred without any problems (they have already got used to all sorts of little green men), and the biggest problem for the Kindred would be not the hunt, but too many wanna-be vampires or people wanting to become at least ghouls - to live longer or forever.

Hey, Hollywood, are you paying for my idea?

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:51 am

dots67 wrote:BTW, I was always wondering if a kindred with a very high humanity (10) should become depressive and suicidal?

Well, lets see. Two things can happen:

1) The Kindred in question has reached the mythical state called "Golconda" where a vampire masters their inner beast. They are said to be calm, all knowing, wise, peaceful and at one with nature... They are also said not to need blood any more then once a month, and even then only a mouthful. These kindred rarely, if ever, mix with other vampires... And if they do it's normaly to take away a chosen one and teach them to find the peace of Golconda as well. If their humanity drops for any reason, they lose this state of peace and become Vampires again as we know them... This likley does cause massive depression, yes, but there is always hope of finding your way back to grace.

2) The Moral Crime chart describes the different kinds of acts that cause a person to drop in humanity. At humanity 10, the moral crime is "Selfish Thoughts"... Thus, chances are, a humanity 10 vampire would be humanity 9 VERY quickly. (IE: "I want some blood" "Thats a nice sweater, I should get one" "Rather then give all my money to the poor, I might give half so I have something to live off"). A person at humanity ten is a saint in every regard. They are the kindest most soft hearted creature on the face of the earth. Dropping down a humanity point doesn't often cause depression, because the vampire doesn't know they lost a point of humanity... It's just a little harder to care about things...

But, should you manage to maintain humanity 10 for more then 15 mins... Yes, I would guess that time would be spent weeping about what you are and what you have to do and likley find you facing the sun in the morning.

Others ? in her clan – residing in that chateau? So, you can identify the clan of other members of her group ?

Hmmm, I don't remember the movie all that well, but there was a man in a red suit who really hated her as I recall, and the other posh vampires gave her the dirty eye when she walked in while they were all on the couches and such... And while that blonde women seemed to pretend to be nice enough, I found myself thinking it was a very fake kind of nice. I could be wrong.

You mean, this one: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0169501/
??

Thats the one, utterly brilliant and very entertaining with celver plots, vicious characters, real interaction and a story behind it that I really liked. In addition, the vampires aren't instantly the bad guys or good guys... You just have to judge for yourself. *Thumbs up*

Anyway, it would be interesting to make a crossover between the Bloodlines and the Underworld.

For example, Selene’s high tech clan... They know that the idea of the Masquerade is doomed – it is just a matter of time when the FBI will find out about them, and will begin the experiments on DNA and other modern stuff (like that guy in the game, you remember him, in the Chinatown…)

So they decide to make a first step, contact the government, violating the Masquerade, which leads to the conflict with the other Kindred. In can be the main plot line.

The funny thing, I think, is that in the modern world people can accept the existence of the Kindred without any problems (they have already got used to all sorts of little green men), and the biggest problem for the Kindred would be not the hunt, but too many wanna-be vampires or people wanting to become at least ghouls - to live longer or forever.

You could make it an Anarch game, where a group of anarchs with a lot of lastest tech and high end equipment start to get paniced about the government finding them and declare their own war. Mind you, in most places in the world the Cammerilla has Ghouls, paied people, blood bound people and dominated people in the government watching for this kind of things, and the two groups could quickly come to blows over the territory. Sounds like fun!

Hey, Hollywood, are you paying for my idea?

No, they are stealing it.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:01 pm

Speaking of hollywood and stealing:

Triva: White Wolf tried to sue the makers of Underworld because the movie is almost exactly like their novel: "A love of monsters"... A book in which a Vampire and a Werewolf fall in love and both the Werewolf Tribes and the Vampire Clans hunt them down for fear that the vampire may embrace the Werewolf, creating a creature called an "Abomination".

Yes, rules and details for werewolves embraced by vampire do exist, yes they were always called "Abominations" and yes... They are BLOODY scary!!

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:03 pm

Guys, focus on Bloodlines to keep this thread, here. This is an interesting discussion, but if it starts becoming a general discussion of VTM, I'll move it to RPG Discussions, where it might have less traffic. Up to you, really.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:08 pm

Sorry sir!

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:12 pm

[QUOTE=pennypincher]As for good Vampire shows, I suggest Ultravoilet. It's really quite awesome... The TV show, NOT the movie!!![/QUOTE]Just out curiosity, what did you think of that TV show based on the game, I found it was called "Kindred, the Embraced". I remember seeing half and half an episode when I was young ....er.

EDIT: Sorry Fable, just saw your comment now, but as a suggestion, maybe move it to "Other Entertainment" rather then RPG discussion, since we're talking movies and TV serieses, with a redirect from this forum.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:22 pm

I think she would be considered more Assamite, that is the way I am leaning, atm.
Thou, not sure Assamite would be enforcers/protectors between Werewolves.

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:14 pm

Hi

About the Humanity=10... I was always thinking that 10 is an average human humanity, so is most cases it is higher then a kindred humanity (except for the serial killers, lawyers etc

) Like ten was a 100% of the humanity then had before the embrace... May be I was wrong...

I played most of the game on the humanity 3... some stupid mistakes... killed few cops... I also remember in the LA downtown I saw one guy stabbing another with a knife, so I tried to help the victim and killed the attacker... and lost humanity... It was not fair !

Do you know if humanity can be lower then 3 in the game ?

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:22 pm

Hmmm...I think Selene could easily be a Brujah. Not the usual rabble you see on the streets, but more the Warrior/Philosophs of older times. The Brujah Clan Disciplines of Celerity, Potence and Presence are clearly those of a warrior. Assamites are more akin to assassins operating stealthwise.

Brujah are also more in touch with technology and humanity then even the Toreador, so having them tinker with DNA could be possible....

Stats for Selene:

Embraced: 12th or 13th century if I remember correctly.
Generation: Hmmm, maybe 6th ( her sire being of the 5th generation, while the old "father" vampire/forgot his name being of the 4th generation and a founder of a brujah bllodline )
Strength: 5
Dexterity: 5
Stamina: 6

Charisma: 4
Manipulation: 3
Appearance: 5

Perception: 5
Intelligence: 4
Wits: 4

Talents: Alertness 5, Brawl 5, Dodge 5, Intimidation 5, Leadership 3,
Streetwise 3
Skills: Demolitions 3, Drive 3, Firearms 5, Melee 5, Stealth 5, Survival 4
Knowledges: Investigation 4, Computer 2, Science 3

Disciplines: Celerity 5, Potence 5, Presence 5, Fortitude ( remember the beginning of the first movie/jump from the building ) 5, Obfuscate ( nice to have as a hunter ) 3, Auspex ( "seeing" the Lycans ) 3

Morality: Humanity 6

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:25 pm

[QUOTE=dots67]Hi

About the Humanity=10... I was always thinking that 10 is an average human humanity, so is most cases it is higher then a kindred humanity (except for the serial killers, lawyers etc

) Like ten was a 100% of the humanity then had before the embrace... May be I was wrong...

I played most of the game on the humanity 3... some stupid mistakes... killed few cops... I also remember in the LA downtown I saw one guy stabbing another with a knife, so I tried to help the victim and killed the attacker... and lost humanity... It was not fair !

Do you know if humanity can be lower then 3 in the game ?[/QUOTE]

Nope !
Average Humanity is 6 to 7 for your regular human. 4 to 5 for people who kill, steal regulary. 8 to 9 maybe for saints. 10 would be almost Jesus like !

Reaching a humanity of 10 brings a Vampire to Golconda, a golden state of the mind and body. The Kainite would be in peace with the monster in it. Needing no blood as substance.

Someone with a humanity lower then 4 is very monsterlike, that's like being a mass murderer. Humanity 0 would make you a complete monster and you would have to hand over your character to the Gamemaster ( in the Pen and Paper game ).

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:59 pm

Nice stat analysis, Lucita.

I was really having trouble with the Assamite but think you solved it nicely.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:57 pm

[QUOTE=Lestat]Just out curiosity, what did you think of that TV show based on the game, I found it was called "Kindred, the Embraced". I remember seeing half and half an episode when I was young ....er.

EDIT: Sorry Fable, just saw your comment now, but as a suggestion, maybe move it to "Other Entertainment" rather then RPG discussion, since we're talking movies and TV serieses, with a redirect from this forum.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, this topic will get moved now, and as well it prolly should.

Kindred: The Embraced was a pretty good show, not as good as Ultraviolet. It was mostly based off the books and game, except there were some glaring issues that made players like me go "Heyha wah?? What the hell is going on here?!"

I spose thats why I like Ultraviolet more... It's not MEANT to be based off Masquerade, so when theres a difference, my mind just says "Yeah, well it's not part of the game world"... Where as with Embraced, when theres a difference my mind says "What idiot at White Wolf okayed this?? Going out in sunlight if you've drukn enough blood?! WHY?!"

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:15 pm

[QUOTE=Lucita]Hmmm...I think Selene could easily be a Brujah. Not the usual rabble you see on the streets, but more the Warrior/Philosophs of older times. The Brujah Clan Disciplines of Celerity, Potence and Presence are clearly those of a warrior. Assamites are more akin to assassins operating stealthwise.

Brujah are also more in touch with technology and humanity then even the Toreador, so having them tinker with DNA could be possible....

Stats for Selene:

Embraced: 12th or 13th century if I remember correctly.
Generation: Hmmm, maybe 6th ( her sire being of the 5th generation, while the old "father" vampire/forgot his name being of the 4th generation and a founder of a brujah bllodline )
Strength: 5
Dexterity: 5
Stamina: 6

Charisma: 4
Manipulation: 3
Appearance: 5

Perception: 5
Intelligence: 4
Wits: 4

Talents: Alertness 5, Brawl 5, Dodge 5, Intimidation 5, Leadership 3,
Streetwise 3
Skills: Demolitions 3, Drive 3, Firearms 5, Melee 5, Stealth 5, Survival 4
Knowledges: Investigation 4, Computer 2, Science 3

Disciplines: Celerity 5, Potence 5, Presence 5, Fortitude ( remember the beginning of the first movie/jump from the building ) 5, Obfuscate ( nice to have as a hunter ) 3, Auspex ( "seeing" the Lycans ) 3

Morality: Humanity 6[/QUOTE]

Ergh! Argh! Ack!! You gotta be kidding, there was no WAY she was apperance 5!

Also, why all those discplines and so few talents? C'mon, lets flesh this character out like she was a person! She'd need SOME Subterfuge and empathy, otherwise she'd never make it. She knows enough about politics to know shes in deep trouble, so give her a dot of that. She would HAVE to know the law to operate around it, and what about some academics?? Did she not go to a school ever??

She doesn't display a large amount of intelligence in the film, and I didn't really find her at all charismatic. Throw in some repair for all those motorcycle and car accidents... Then drop those INSANE 5 dots Alterness (Shes not Buddha, she anit one with everything) Dodge, Firearms, Melee and Stealth (Crickey, she clearly wasn't the worlds best at ANY of these, just giving her those insane physicals would cover what she displayed in the film) and lets bring down her intimidation a LOT. Fill her out with some interigation abilities, maybe a little performance (God knows the actress could have used some) and boom, thats more like it.

As for those discplines... Holy mother of mercy, she's not a tiny God! Celerity 3 I saw at best. Her jump at the end of the film was a little unatural, so Potence 1, I have to agree on Fortitude 3-4, as that drop at the start of the film was enough to shove her ankle bones up through her brain. She displayed no ability to sway anyone with her powerful personality, Presence 0, she displayed no Obfuscate powers despite how useful they would have been during the film, 0, and auspex 2... 3 is spirits touch, and again that would have been the kind of thing that could come up. If I was Story Telling a game with her in it, I MIGHT be bribed into giving her some Anaimalism for helping with the Werewolves, but only if she owed clan Gangrel of Nosferatue some BIG favours.

So, Pennypinchers school of hard knocks would have her:

Str: 3
Dex: 4
Stam: 5

Char: 2
Manip: 2
App: 3

Perc: 4
Inte: 2
Wits: 4

Alertness: 3 Brawl: 3 Empathy: 1 Expression: 2 Streetwise: 3 Subterfuge: 2 Intimidation: 2Leadership: 2 Demolitions (Secondary) 2 Drive: 3 Firearms: 4 Melee: 3 Stealth: 3 Survival: 2 Repair: 2 Performance: 1 Academics: 2 Politics: 1 Investigation: 2 law: 2 Science: 2 Computer: 1 Medcine: 3

Cons: 3
S/C: 2
Cour: 4

Celerity: 3 Potence: 1 Fortitude: 4 Auspex: 2 Animalism: 1

Humanity: 6
Willpower: 6

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:15 am

I dont agree.
Her appearance is at least 4 or 5 !
Celerity… only 3 ? What is about the second movie, when he moves between the trees in the forest, when she fights local cops?

Again about the humanity.. In the game the initial humanity is 7 (not sure). So as you say, it is a normal human humanity. But shouldn’t you lose a humanity immediately after the embrace just because the presence of the beast affects you?

If would be interesting to read something focused on the physiological aspects of such transformation… initial confusion (remember a girl in “Live hard, die young and leave a beautiful body”), may be panic, etc

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:26 am

Celerity 3 is three times the speed of a normal human, thats faster then most local speed limits. Go ahead, reach out and snatch a pen from in front of your eyes... Hand moves pretty fast doesn't it? Imagine trying to spot that hand travling three times faster. A blurr? Impossable to see at all?

No, Celerity 3 is more then sufficent for anything I've seen her do. That being said, maybe she does something awesome in the second film, cos God knows I don't make the same mistake twice, and they aren't getting a cent of my money for a SECOND slap in the face.

I didn't think she was that pretty. Nice dark hair, cut too short. Average features. Thats personal opinion thou of course. Her costumes didn't do much for me either.

It's not required that a person lose humanity instantly upon becoming a vampire, however it does happen from time to time... Mostly because many sires are ruthless about giving up their own blood and would rather put no more then a few drops on their childes tongue so that they wake up starving and in frenzy, then let them slack their thirst on a few humans... Hey presto, you wake up surrounded by corpses you just drained dry, humanity loss.

But you don't HAVE to lose humanity. If your sire makes sure you have a full belly, you'll just wake up and feel strange and empty and cold... It's not untill you have to struggle with the beast that it starts to exert dominance. Also, it's quite possable for a vampire to go UP in humanity. You may have been Embraced at humanity 5, dropped to 4 and realised that this was "A warning from God" and put a change to your ways... Risking everything to save mortals, drinking only what you need, a life of charity and meditation, you could end up at humanity 6... The act of fighting an inner beast letting you really understand who you are and the hardship you've caused.

As for what happens in the Embrace, it's often left up to the Story Teller to help the player understand that... And curiosity about how something effects someone like this is the first step to playing the game.

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:42 am

BTW, about feeding... Strange, in the game if you dont use disciplines, you dont consume blood at all. I left the game running for a long time, and the blood level was still the same.

Theoretically, how often kindred need to feed? every night?

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:48 am

Nope, you use a blood point every day when you wake up. So if you don't use any blood otherwise you can go without drinking blood for 10 days (average bloodpool is 10 ).

Pennypincher, I just gave her those better stats cause I felt she was that nasty.
But according to White Wolf's How to make older NPC Vampires:

Let's say she is 800 years old
Abilities: 7/5/3 plus 2 dots for each century of age ( for the first few centuries )
---> 16 dots on abilities

Physical are her primary, Mental her secondary and Social her tertiary abilities:
Strength 3, Dexterity 4, Stamina 5
Charisma 3, Manipulation 2, Appearance 3
Perception 4, Intelligence 3, Wits 4

Her Charisma, Appearance and Intelligence are above the human average of 2.

Talents/Knowledges are okay with me....
Disciplines are usally the square root of the time a vampire has spend undead, that would give her about 28 dots in disciplines ( with 800 years of age ).

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:10 am

Thank you, Lucita.

I always liked the vampires, but after this wonderful game I began to search information in the Internet about it, bought the DVD “Kindred the Embraced”, but as I never played paper and pencil games, I still know few % of the rules, so, thank you again for answering my questions.

There is another think which puzzles me in the game. That mad scientist in the Chinatown… One of his experiments had proved that UV radiation cause no damage to the Kindred. So why the sun light is so lethal (is it compatible with the White Wolf design)?

And how much time does it takes for the sunlight to kill an average Kindred? In movies, it varies from almost instantaneous combustion (Blade, Underworld), to few hours when fed (“Kindred The Embraced”). According to the rules, can they protect their selves artificially (remember helmets in Blade)?