Got a quick question to people who know the rules really well. I can't seem to find this anywhere within the DMG or Monster Manual.
Now, my question is this. I want an NPC monster (since players of my campaign are here on this board, I'll leave the name of the actual monster unmentioned), with a few class levels in something. Problem is, do I ignore the Level Adjustment: - or can that not have a class level period.
So let's say (and don't expect this if you're in my campaign) I want a Night Hag (Page 193 MM) to have a few levels in wizard. Now, is this possible with it's level adjustment, or is that not possible. The level adjustment for it is a dash ( - ), No numbers.
Thanks for the help if any.
Monsters with Class Levels Question
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Siberys
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Monsters with Class Levels Question
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It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
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Siberys
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Well, that's just it. There is NO level adjustment, so technically you could add classes as normal, but then again, it also doesn't say "Advancement: By character class" which made me ask this question.
So, as a DM who wants to make a monster for the players to fight, can I create that monster with class levels?
So, as a DM who wants to make a monster for the players to fight, can I create that monster with class levels?
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
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Demortis
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Well, a very good DM of mine said that alot of his monsters had class levels, I think he said they had to have an Int score of 6 or higher. And you just add to the CR of the creature. But I could be wrong and he was playin with house rules.
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Whatever it is my dwarf will kill it. :laugh: Really, I think I'd be more help if I had the actual creature to base things off of to help you. However, the first thing I found without an LA and without "By Class Level" advancement would be a Wyvern. This creature has 6 Int, and advances by HD in size. A gold dragon, has an LA, but advances by HD in size.
Now, the big difference between the two I would say is simply the Int and abilities. The abilities give the true dragon a LA based on HD. The Wyvern doesn't have many special abilities and doesn't have a LA. However....the Wyvern does have flight, Nat. Armor +8, improved grab and a poison attack, dragon traits, and a bonus feat on top of what it should normally get for it's HD. That to me says that....it would be needing a LA if it could use magic equipment like a character.
The Night Hag, has a number of 1st level spells, at 8th caster level it can use at will. Nothing major truly, however, being able to cast Magic Missile as often as it would like can be quite strong realistically, being able to do 8-20 damage every round at range, no chance of miss aside from a Shield spell or SR. A multitude of immunitities and DR 10/cold iron, SR, and other such things make for this creature to be quite strong. Again, I would slap a LA on if I were to allow this creature to be able to use equipment and take class levels for game balance. It just seems a bit over the top to me to just add classes straight onto a race like this without that LA, even though it says it doesn't need one. There really isn't any way for a player to get, in 8 levels, a full BAB, 3 good saves, 4 immunities, SR 15 + HD, +11 Natural Armor, and DR 10/anything, you know?
Now, the big difference between the two I would say is simply the Int and abilities. The abilities give the true dragon a LA based on HD. The Wyvern doesn't have many special abilities and doesn't have a LA. However....the Wyvern does have flight, Nat. Armor +8, improved grab and a poison attack, dragon traits, and a bonus feat on top of what it should normally get for it's HD. That to me says that....it would be needing a LA if it could use magic equipment like a character.
The Night Hag, has a number of 1st level spells, at 8th caster level it can use at will. Nothing major truly, however, being able to cast Magic Missile as often as it would like can be quite strong realistically, being able to do 8-20 damage every round at range, no chance of miss aside from a Shield spell or SR. A multitude of immunitities and DR 10/cold iron, SR, and other such things make for this creature to be quite strong. Again, I would slap a LA on if I were to allow this creature to be able to use equipment and take class levels for game balance. It just seems a bit over the top to me to just add classes straight onto a race like this without that LA, even though it says it doesn't need one. There really isn't any way for a player to get, in 8 levels, a full BAB, 3 good saves, 4 immunities, SR 15 + HD, +11 Natural Armor, and DR 10/anything, you know?
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I think demortis is right. For a monster with class levels just add the amount of class levels to the challenge rating. e.g. a night hag (CR 9) with 4 levels in wizard would have a total CR of 13. Please point out if this is not the case but its the way iv always played it.
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TheOverlord
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Monsters with Class Levels vs Level Adjustment
I know this is a bit of thread necromancy but I didn't want to leave this question unanswered in-case others have it later.
Level adjustment markers are only used to determine what the Effective Character Level(ECL) would be if you were making a PC. For example: the Bugbear has a level adjustment of +1 and starts with 3 racial hit dice. That means it is a ECL 4 or effectively a 4th level PC before adding any classes at all. Every class added past that would level up normally...so your "first" class level is actually making you a 5th level PC.
Advancement: It is true that some creatures are noted as increasing by character class while others show progressions of racial hit dice. However, if you read the "Improving Monsters" section at the back of the Monster Manual you will realize they view the process of improving monsters to be very fluid. The advancement sequences are there to help. As a standard rule all a creature needs to take class levels is at least a 3 INT. (An int that low is still a stretch...but those are the rules).
Now as far as Challenge Rating(CR) is concerned. Each class level you add to a creature that plays to its strengths...fighter levels on a Barghest for example...adds +1 per level. This is called an associated class level. If a class would not directly assist a creature such as a sorcerer level on a fire giant the CR increases by +1 per 2 levels added. This is called a non-associated class level. There is a judgment call in there that a DM has to make when adding levels...associated or non-associated. One you decide this you will be able to calculate CR easily.
There you have it. Aside from those things it is worth nothing that creatures that can "cast spells as a 7th level sorcerer" such as the Dark Naga will increase fluidly with sorcerer levels. So adding a sorcerer class level to the Dark Naga would make it cast spells as an 8th level sorcerer. (Which most certainly would be a +1 CR as an associated class level as it clearly helps the naga's core abilities.)
Hope that clarifies for all of you reading future threads. Please note to play with these things you can visit my site...it is made for this sort of thing.
Thanks
The Overlord
Monster Advancer 3.5
I know this is a bit of thread necromancy but I didn't want to leave this question unanswered in-case others have it later.
Level adjustment markers are only used to determine what the Effective Character Level(ECL) would be if you were making a PC. For example: the Bugbear has a level adjustment of +1 and starts with 3 racial hit dice. That means it is a ECL 4 or effectively a 4th level PC before adding any classes at all. Every class added past that would level up normally...so your "first" class level is actually making you a 5th level PC.
Advancement: It is true that some creatures are noted as increasing by character class while others show progressions of racial hit dice. However, if you read the "Improving Monsters" section at the back of the Monster Manual you will realize they view the process of improving monsters to be very fluid. The advancement sequences are there to help. As a standard rule all a creature needs to take class levels is at least a 3 INT. (An int that low is still a stretch...but those are the rules).
Now as far as Challenge Rating(CR) is concerned. Each class level you add to a creature that plays to its strengths...fighter levels on a Barghest for example...adds +1 per level. This is called an associated class level. If a class would not directly assist a creature such as a sorcerer level on a fire giant the CR increases by +1 per 2 levels added. This is called a non-associated class level. There is a judgment call in there that a DM has to make when adding levels...associated or non-associated. One you decide this you will be able to calculate CR easily.
There you have it. Aside from those things it is worth nothing that creatures that can "cast spells as a 7th level sorcerer" such as the Dark Naga will increase fluidly with sorcerer levels. So adding a sorcerer class level to the Dark Naga would make it cast spells as an 8th level sorcerer. (Which most certainly would be a +1 CR as an associated class level as it clearly helps the naga's core abilities.)
Hope that clarifies for all of you reading future threads. Please note to play with these things you can visit my site...it is made for this sort of thing.
Thanks
The Overlord
Monster Advancer 3.5