Massively Multi-Player games and the RPG crowd

Equis · Post by **Equis** » Mon Jan 22, 2001 4:10 pm

Hello all!

I was curious what the interest in MMORPGs (Massively Multi-Player Online Role-Playing Games) amongst the GameBanshee crowd was. I consider you all pretty die-hard RPG fans, so it will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the current MMORPGs (UO, EQ, AC) and the upcoming ones (Shadowbane & Horizons being the two we cover and the huge slew of ones we don't).

I've played UO and EQ extensively, and the Multi-Player environment has somewhat ruined single player games for me. In that they are no longer as immersive as I once found them to be.

Anyway, this is mostly just my own curiousity, but it might help us gauge which of the upcoming MMORPGs you all are looking foward too and which of them we should make an immediate effort to cover.

Thx,
Equis
GameBanshee staff and all that.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Mon Jan 22, 2001 5:39 pm

This is where I get confused ... Is NWN an MMORPG? I would be glad if someone could either post a link to where I could get more info or explain this. I'm new to all this. The only game I have played online is

AoE and this got old quick. I would like to learn . Weasel

------------------
The Defender of Truth

Equis · Post by **Equis** » Mon Jan 22, 2001 5:54 pm

The line between NWN and MMORPG is a bit fuzzy, I thought about mentioning it in my post, but left it alone.

What I was really aiming at with that post is the true MMORPGs, the ones where you are on a server with 1000+ people and can meet them ingame at any point.

Although 1000's of people may be playing NWN at the sametime, only a few (8 I think) can actually interact within a specific game at anytime. The line is blurred even more by the Vault, which controls character advancement for Vault characters. This means you are playing in a way, with everyone that has a Vault character.

For more information, check GameBanshee's NWN area. Trout has put up a lot of good game info, and there should be links to even more.

[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwinternights/index.php"]GB's NWN area[/url]

Equis

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Mon Jan 22, 2001 6:01 pm

Thanks Equis.. This 1000 people on server sounds like it would be a lot better. I'll keep looking back here to get a better understanding of the MMORPGs your talking about.

------------------
The Defender of Truth

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Mon Jan 22, 2001 8:48 pm

I play Ultima Online well over 2 years now.

------------------
Just a couple &cent from Ron!
[url="http://www.geocities.com/thesmh/"]Shadows of the Midnight Hour[/url]
My Ultima Online Guild Page

NCT · Post by **NCT** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 6:50 am

I've been playing RPGs for 22 years,(started with pen and paper:Mage-Thief,still going strong)and I am an addict for Single Player ones.The only game,up to now,I have not seen to the "bitter end" is UO.Something did not feel "right".So,I don't want to know them.

Carrot · Post by **Carrot** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 12:58 pm

Only game i ever played multiplayer was age of empires2 and that was quite good.

Matthew99 · Post by **Matthew99** » Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:52 am

The Realm is the best! [url="http://www.realmserver.com/."]http://www.realmserver.com/.[/url] Doesn't look like much but you'll be addicted within an hour. I've been playing for three years, so...

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:41 pm

WOW! Matthew99 that little portal water thing, is bas ass! on the intro page.

------------------
Just a couple &cent from Ron!
[url="http://www.geocities.com/thesmh/"]Shadows of the Midnight Hour[/url]
My Ultima Online Guild Page

Equis · Post by **Equis** » Sat Jan 27, 2001 1:37 pm

Wow! That intro. page is pretty sweet. Very nice mouse over affect.

Equis

KN · Post by KN » Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:52 am

I have played many of the online RPG's and have had lots of fun. But my biggest problem is with how they are always changing game play based on complaints and whining of the customers. I find that as soon as I have figured out what the best skills or character to have in the game are and then work really hard to fine tune my characters to be the best that they possibly can be. Somebody comes along and complains about something being to powerful and they change the game and make my character useless.
Some examples are.
When Everquest first started up I created a wizard character because they were obviously the strongest and seemed like they would be the funnest for me to play and I was correct. My character was very powerful by the time I was getting to lev 20 or so. Lots of people complained about wizard's kill stealing and being too powerful so they raised the magic resistance of the monsters and made wizards practically useless. All my time and money spent on the game was wasted. I was now stuck with a pretty much worthless character.

I had tons of fun on Ultima Online. I played an evil Dreadlord and used to love organizing large groups of evil players to ambush the goody types. Everyone started complaining that the evil players were too powerful so UO changes the game so that when a evil character dies and gets resurrected he loses stats and skills that he worked very hard to obtain.

Avariel · Post by **Avariel** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 9:53 am

I was thinking about gettting EverQuest today, I've been researching it alot.
If there EQ players on GameBanshee that read this, is it worth getting, and does it stay fun to play?

Thanks

~Avariel~

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 9:59 am

Originally posted by Avariel:
I was thinking about gettting EverQuest today, I've been researching it alot.
If there EQ players on GameBanshee that read this, is it worth getting, and does it stay fun to play?

Thanks

~Avariel~

I believe Maurice and his brother play it.

------------------
"Boo says Weasel is the best"

Equis · Post by **Equis** » Fri Feb 02, 2001 10:14 pm

A large number of the GameBanshee staff use to play EQ. Personally I found it a great game for quite sometime. However, after being well experienced in it, I found several fundamental design flaws.

The one that bugs me the most is this - You can not, atleast at high levels, log in and play for a short time. (an hour or so)

Grouping with people in EQ is essential. At low levels, this is fun. At high levels you find yourself waiting on party members for hours.

So to a new EQ prospect I would say this. If you plan on playing casually, do NOT expect to advance far in the game. If you don't really care about being the highest level and doing the hardest things, but just want something to waste a few hous here and there...go for it, its an incredibly immersive game.

Equis
GB Staff and all that
(Someday I'll fix my sig. file)

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Wed Feb 07, 2001 5:41 am

I do play EQ (most of my free time goes into it!) and so does my brother. Sourced, for those who still remember him, is also an EQ junky in the mean time

So far, EQ is the first and only game I've played over the Internet. Haven't got experience with games like UO.

Basically, if you take the game at face-value, it's no big deal. The game takes place on numerous maps, called zones, and each zone is different. It's all fully 3D, and each zone has specific features, like ruins, mountains, hills, forests, towns and outposts, etc ... There are desert regions, grasslands, forest, snowplanes, etc ...

Each of the zones has its specific range of MOB's (Monster Or Beast), although a MOB may occur in more than one zone. These MOB's can vary in level from 1 to 65+. Player advancement goes from lvl 1 to 60 (max is 60 at the moment), and during that development you gain numerous skills (that you must train for them to remain functional!). Basically, when you kill a MOB, you gain experience, if it's not too easy for you - MOB's that are about 6 levels below your current level will not gain you any experience anymore. You can loot the corpse of the MOB for items and/or money (though some drop nothing). MOBs respawn over time, so you can keep killing them.

As far as gameplay is concerned, that's it. The real beauty of the game is in the Multi-Player aspect. At higher levels (30+), most classes will have a hard time solo-ing (means you take on MOBs all by yourself) for experience. The MOBs that gain you any exp will wipe the floor with you if you're on your own. When you team up with a few people (max party size is 6, and you should try to team up with people about your level), you usually can defeat MOBs several levels above the group level. Besides that, when in a group, you have a bonus to experience, depending on group size - larger groups gain overall more experience.

It's this grouping - best done with friends - that makes the game so much fun. You combine your skills with those of others, and together you defeat MOBs that would mean certain death to any of you when you would be alone. Also, the socialising with other people (group, guild, friends, whatever...) is quite an important aspect of the game.

The game allows you to choose various different Races and Classes to play, each with its bonusses and drawbacks. Erudites for example make great wizards, but they are physically weak. Ogres make great warriors, but they are an evil race, and therefore will not be able to enter good-aligned towns (there are evil and good towns, though).

The main problems with the game come in various details:
- As mentioned by Buck and Equis, you can't log on to play for 30 minutes and then go again. When you log on, expect to play for at least a few hours, maybe with a short lunch/dinner break, but nothing more.
- Larger raids on higher levels require many hours, and you should plan these in advance. This is not casual playing, and I know there are players who really shift their RL (Real Life) workschedule around to make it to such a raid. These raids are perhaps the cherry on the pie of the game though.
- Anti-social behaviour of other people. With usually about 1500+ players online during American peak hours, you're likely to run into jerks. Most people will be just like you and me, but some can be really annoying. Luckily you can report them to GMs (Game Masters), who work for Verant (EQ Creators).
- KS-ing, or better said, Kill-Stealing. When camping with a group at a certain spot, waiting for MOBs to spawn, it can occur that other players rush in, and steal the MOBs away before your group can kill them. It happens, and it is considered asocial behaviour.

Advantages:
- Guilds are around, and they greatly add to the social aspect of the game. Expect to make many friends when you join one, friends that will help you when you need it.
- Also, you will meet other people that you'll see around for quite some time, and they too can become friends (you actually can make a 'friends' list in the game).
- No matter your level, the game remains challenging. I'm level 29 now, and still I am fighting to survive the MOB's ... it isn't getting easier. This is because you shift your territory of operations into more and more dangerous areas as you advance.
- Quests. Yes, there are quests in the game. Although the world is fairly static (next week it will look pretty much the same as it did last week), you can perform quests. Usually, a quest gains you a nice item, and some are really worth working for. I've written down a number of quests I'd like to do, and know that it will take me quite a while ... but the gain is worth it

- PK-ers can exist right next to 'normal' player characters. PK-ers can only kill other PK-ers ... and it is clear who these people are. Otherwise, 'friendly fire' is off, so you won't be able to take damage from other players, unless you either enter an Arena (you get a warning message that you're in pvp area), or start a duel with someone (and then only that other person can harm you). Actually, there are three servers, specifically dedicated to pvp.

Basically, the game is what you put into it.

I've seen the game for nearly 2 months as my brother played it, but didn't think much of it. I started on the first day of Christmas (wow, people ARE generous to newbies on that day!

) because my brother told me I should just try it, and have been hooked since.

We're playing on the Lanys T'Vyl server. My character is a lvl 29 Cleric named Kaysha Soulsinger. My brother has a lvl 29 Wizard called Daemion Immolatus, and Sourced has a lvl 28 warrior, called Seleana Ravenscar. We're all proud members of the Glade Knights (a guild). Say hi to us if and when you drop by

[This message has been edited by Maurice (edited 02-07-2001).]

Equis · Post by **Equis** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:43 am

Maurice -

This is a bit old to reply to, but as I re-read it, something caught my eye. Level 29.

By now you are probably atleast 30 or past it, how did you like your 1st "Hell Level"? I have to say, Hell Levels really took a large part of the fun out of EQ for me. Not that I had a very difficult time getting through them, (Being a powergamer and in a uber guild) just the whole idea of them bothered me.

Thier sole purpose is to make advancement extremely difficult. Not through gameplay or any sort of playable mechanics, they're just a huge hurdle tossed in the way arbitraily to keep you from advancing ($$$).

Atleast at ya have the ol' rez to fall back on.

Everyone loves a lvl 29+ cleric.

Equis

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 4:19 am

If you have read the Goody topic, you know my Cleric is now lvl 31. Yes, Hell levels are a nightmare in that the experience is creeping in only ever so slowly.

However, the level following it might be even more of a disaster; when you die, the exp. loss is always based on the experience gained in the level before. In a post-hell-level, this is ALOT of experience one can loose upon death. I've died twice in lvl 31, losing a good 2 yellow bubs. If I hadn't died, I would now be lvl 32 already.

Originally, the Hell levels were an unintended side effect, due to the way experience gain was calculated at the higher levels. When this was first noticed though, they appear to have liked it, and kept it in. This might also be not to put players who had already gone through a hell level at a disadvantage, but I'm not sure.

Whatever, the effect is there .. and at 50+, ALL levels are hell levels. WTG Verant, for the average player such levels are near to impossible.

I will yet have to see ...

Applebrown · Post by **Applebrown** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:11 am

Yep hell levels were a pain. Fortunately I quit the game just before reaching level 50 as a Wizard so didn't have to go through that mess.

WTG Verant, for the average player such levels are near to impossible.

I actually think that it was a great design decision. It keeps powergamers happy (well as happy as they can get as they're usually the most vocal opposition to implementations... wanting neither to level too fast nor too slow) and as for the average player? I don't think that the average casual gamer cares greatly about being the absolute most powerful. There is still plenty in the game to do for all levels and we have to remember that this game is meant to be played over a LONG time. They purposely designed it so that the average player would take months and months of playing to get anywhere near a high level... that along with a great social aspect and very solid game keeps gamers coming back for more.

------------------
Applebrown @
www.GameBanshee.com
Make YOUR Gaming Scream!

Equis · Post by **Equis** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 5:38 pm

Heh, ya I knew about the post level bug problem. I had it happen to me a few times and it sucked.

After talking games with AB the last few days, I'm getting the feeling his decidely non-powergamer. I being a powergamer, have to disagree with him.

I don't think hell levels are a good thing and they actually affect the casual gamer a lot more than a powergamer. To a powergamer, it means it is just going to take a bit longer to get to level 50. To a casual gamer, it means they might not ever make level 50. Most of the complaints about EQ are from the casual gamers that find it near impossible to level up, not from powergamers.

I was level 54 when I quit last April. Post 50, levels are a joke. The best time I had was when I was a full level 50, with no post 50 levels. I could just play, hit the hard areas and not worry much about death. The experience I lost would be gained back.

Abashi (one of the reasons I quit EQ) always asked why people camped and didn't just play for fun. The answer to that, if he had ever put a significant amount of time into the game on a non-doctored character, is that if you just tool around and do things for fun, you lose weeks and months of experience. Death is a certainity in EQ. The penalty for death is extreme. I was always an explorer in EQ. I would often run down into dungeons (pre-death w/ no items) and look around or just run across the terrain. However, I quickly quit doing this, because I was paying the penalty in extreme measures of exp. If I ever wanted to see parts of the game other than post lvl 20, I had to camp and pound out experience.

Anyway, I'm rambling. There are other ways of making the game playable than making leveling near impossible. That is one of the key flawed fundamentals that EQ is built on, IMO. It isn't a good game design, but it is a good business model.

Either way it was a fun game for awhile. I hope the new batch of MMOs break as much ground as EQ did.

------------------
Equis - Editor
Gamebanshee
www.gamebanshee.com
Make your Gaming Scream!