BG goes ancient Greek?

Bylandt · Post by **Bylandt** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 2:17 pm

What I really would like is the BG's engine used to create a RPG-game situated in Greek mythology. You could play a Greek hero. You could ask Perseus, Orpheus,Odysseus or Ariadne to join your party. You could choose a "patron" God (Ares, Aphrodite, Hera, Poseidon, ...). You could fight Amazons and Centaurs, perform the Herculean tasks, get back Euridice from Hades, walk through the Cretan Maze to kill the Minautor, search for the golden fleece, ... . With TV-series like "Xena" and "Hercules" getting young people interessed in Greek mythology, Black Isle could do much worse. Black Isle, are you reading this ?

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 5:08 am

I don't know why, but i think it would be a flop....but it's only a sensation of mine....

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:21 am

I'm inclined to agree with Edwin. To make it work in a CRPG, many of the elements true to the original would have to be eliminated, and a standard, cliche-ridden set of rules put into place. There was almost no magic used in those legends, for instance, except from the gods--and those were the much later Roman retentions of the tales, when their religious aspects had largely fled, and been replaced by the jaded amusement of upper class patricians. Priests cast blessings and foretold the future (via oracles), and that was it.

Another problem is associated with simply performing quests you already know in advance, from reading about them. The 12 Labors of Hercules are no big deal, when viewed objectively: a single man fighting a giant of enormous strength, for example, doesn't conjure up much visceral excitement in a gaming environment for RPGers. What made the story worth the telling was the description of the event, what Hercules had to do to win the battle, which was one of wits as well as brawn. The literary thrill doesn't translate well to the screen. (And no, the tv series has nothing to do with the original legends aside from costuming.)

Personally, I'd rather play characters in an adventure whose plot I don't know in advance, and whose encounters and personalities are new to me.

Robin_Hood · Post by **Robin_Hood** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 9:17 am

Now I don't think the Hercules-battles would suit an CRPG, because of the reasons fable already mentioned. Still, I think that the ancient Greece would be a great set for a CRPG. I can imagine it...i could be so beatiful. Yes, definitely. That would really be something, since I don't recall any ancient Greece-rpgs recently...if ever. But I don't think it would be a good thing if someone like Perseus would join the party, he should be an NPC like Ribald or Elminster. Maybe someone like him could join the party in a battle like Drizzt does but that should be all. A very good idea. Thought about it myself a couple of times.

Bylandt · Post by **Bylandt** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 11:46 am

1. Edwin, not impossible it would be flop, but I doubt it. Maybe the idea seems strange to the traditional RPG-crowd. However, I believe an RPG situated in ancient Greece could attract a different public.

2. Fable, you're propably wright about the scarcety of magic in Greek myths.It would take quite an adaption of the BG-system to replace this with divine interventions etc. However some of the magic in BG clearly refers to Greek mythology. The gaze of the Basilisk turning people to stone, exactly like the Medusa, the mental domination of the sirens, ... .

3. The missions, like the Herculean Labors, could be predictable and even boring, if they are identical to Greek mythology (at least if the player is familiar with it). But they don't have to be identical. The TV-series "Hercules" don't exactly match the traditional myths either.

4. Yep, Robin Hood, maybe having Hercules or Achilles in your party is not a good idea. But, like you, I would like some CRPG that bathes in this Greek mythological atmosphere.

Anyone of you read "Bloodfeud of Altheus"? Its is a three-part "adventure gamebook" from 1985. These solo-RPG-books ("ik you go left go page 45, if you take the right cooricor, turn to page 178")were a short-lived succes in the 80ies. Most of these books weren't very exciting. Bloodfeud of Altheus was an exeption in my view. Particularly the background of Ancient Greece and Greek made it a book with a particular atmosphere. That's what I'm looking for.

Bylandt

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 9:49 am

@Bylandt, points well-taken, though I'd suggest the stuff about the Medusa and the Sirens are pretty peripheral to the game.

But you know, what's funny is that some folks in the gaming industry believe *any* game having to do with Greek mythology is the kiss-of-death. I'm serious. The CEO of Frog City, for instance (they made Imperialism and Imperialism II, both damn fine strategy games) have a pre-alpha product called Pantheon which is a really interesting mix of RPG elements, strategy, and action--very different. Pretty in-depth.

When they went to Sierra with it, they got a good reception by all the developers and such, but the accountants, the bean-counters, hated it. Will never sell, they said. Any game that's based on Greco-Roman mythology will die. (This was pre-Zeus, by the way, and they would probably argue that Zeus is really just the Caesar III engine in new clothes, which is true.) They absolutely refused to change their stance, even when one of Sierra's top in-house producers went toe-to-toe arguing with them, and offering to stake his reputation by joining the Pantheon development team.

I've got an early build of the game, and it's pretty interesting, but I don't know that we'll ever see it go gold.

Bylandt · Post by **Bylandt** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 12:50 pm

I'm with you on Imperialism I and II. I'd guess they were quite a gamble as well. And what about the succes of Europa Universalis? When I saw it first anounced I thought Paradox was nuts converting an extremely complex historical boardgame, which few people bought and even fewer ever got to play, to PC. Now I even found it in my local Belgian PC-shop which normally only retails the popular hit-, shoot- and drivegames.

You seem very well informed about the goings on at Sierra! I can only hope they change their minds. I'd really think a game like this could attract players who tend to look down on traditional RPG's with their dwarfs, elves and magic.

True, the adventure-game based on the Ring of the Nibelungen was a flop. But not because of its subject or setting, but simply because it was a bad game.

Go Pantheon!

Thanks for the feedback.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 7:29 pm

Yes, the Ring was a terrible game: all flash, no content. And the gaming industry is a strange place. It's kind of like whatever we've heard about Hollywood: lots of people with clout who don't know a thing about product, lots of leeches who want a financial piece of any pie that looks like it's going to go over big; some people who are really sincere and dedicated about turning out good stuff, etc. Bottom line is turning the biggest profit possible. But along the way, some of the good people also may make things work for them, and the folks who like what they do.

RPGeek · Post by **RPGeek** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 7:42 am

The gaze of the Basilisk turning people to stone, exactly like the Medusa

No, it works in the opposite way, actually. The gaze of basilisks (they're probably delivered from some similar mythology, anyway) turns people into stone, while medusae turn people to stone by being gazed upon.

Anyway, there are lots of default-worlds (usually a pretty fertile land with some artifacts and an underworld) with default-creatures (elves, just as an example) and default-storylines (monsters attacking more regularly, the Chosen-to-save-the-world) that turn out pretty good. Actually, when it all comes down to it, there's not so big difference between Faerun and Gaia.

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » Thu Jul 05, 2001 4:10 am

Isn't there a gamne about Xena? And you have a Disney-version about Hercules, you know! But an RPG of the Greek time, it's worth a try, but I wonder if there isn't a game like this...

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Jul 05, 2001 10:04 am

Yeah, but they're aimed at the kiddie market. (And the Atlantis product is a ripoff from the animated film.)

Of course, I'm not sticking up for the bean counter who said games based on Greek mythology don't sell. I think there's a hell of a lot more involved than just the skins you dress your pixels in.

hermetic · Post by **hermetic** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 10:36 am

Hey I've had an idea for an ancient world rpg where the so-called "Sea Peoples" go about doing their "Dark Age" thing in the Mediterranean. Characters would reside with these "Sea Peoples" or Achaeans and the adventures take one from the Pontus to the Aegean to Egypt and even to the western Mediterranean (maybe Plato's Atlantis and other fanciful plots west of the Pillars of Hercules). So as not to offend any ancient historians out there, such a period, namely 1200BC-800BC, is ideal for a fantastical setting. I'd probably incorporate Linear A into the material somehow in an attempt to "Tolkienize" the world with unique linguistic features. Any thoughts out there to give me inspiration? Maybe some linguistic suggestions?

humanflyz · Post by **humanflyz** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 2:35 pm

I don't think a RPG can correctly depict some ancient world setting. RPG, IMO, are games that focuses on one person or one small group and their adventures, quests, etc. What you are talking about here is a very large group of people. The scale of this RPG would be too big. However, I think a real time strategy game could be easily made based on the ancient world setting.

GEorGE · Post by **GEorGE** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 2:04 pm

To all of you who say that this game wouldn't sell - I find it hard to believe that you haven't played Heroes of Might&Magic and most of that game was based on Greco-Roman-Egyptian-Norwegian mythology mixed with some elements from Tolkien's books. Personally I think that Heroes 2&3 were the best RPG-Strategy mixes ever. Soon Heroes 4 will also be out and I guess we'll just have to see how it works out.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 4:55 pm

I believe that a Greek based CRPG could work. It has some beutiful settings to use, and some pretty kick ass stories to tinker with. Instead of using myth and legand to make the game, maybe twist them a bit, make it a little more interesting. The idea of being able to interact with heroes like Perseus, and Hercules is a rather intrigueing thought that could fly. Another thing that would make it a good game was the fact that it was on the pinncle of of the BC era, and that alone could be the basis for a game. I dunno, thats just some thoughts on the idea...

Grojlach · Post by **Grojlach** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 9:10 am

How about Invictus? Nice game though a little too short, but it was kind of a CRPG, it had at least a few RPG elements, though not many...