Point & Counterpoint the 1st Discussion

[ThorinOakensfield]

Actually i think lv. 40 is ok. After the pc is an avater of bhaal. Drizzt and Elminister have their stories about how they became the greatest heroes and the pc is a new hero. The pc has some godlike powers just like elminister, so it makes sense that he or she can become a demigod. There are stories about heros and this is another one. However i don't believe that the npcs should be able to reach lv.40. Lv. 25-30 should be the max for them.

[Aegis]

Lvl 30 max eh? Thats alright, for single player. In multiplay on some of these games, it's kind've fun to get higher (Even if it takes months ) Has anyone here every had the experiance of being a legand online of a online server? I'll tell you, it's one hell of a good time. (High level V:tMR player, until I quit) Single player games should have caps, to make it difficult, but fun at the same time. Multi should not, just make it difficult to acheive it, and make people work their asses off for it.

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All for one, and one for all!

[Rail]

The PC already has some god-like powers just like Elminster and Drizzt at level 20! Level 40 is a joke. My monk bested Drizzt one on one, and he hadn't reached the exp. cap in BG2. How will it be at level 30, let alone level 40. You go way past demi-god status. Give us a better story than that. I wish they would respect the Forgotten Realms setting and stories better than this.

[TheHellion]

Originally posted by Varg:
I think people are getting a little too hung up on "level 40"....Bioware's probably just setting the cap so high no-one will ever reach it.

And besides, what level is the main character at the end? 18? 17?
Starting there it'll take at least a few major quests before it gets totally unreasonable.

This has been said before, and frankly, I doubt it's going to be the case. Black Isle wouldn't devote so much pomp and circumstance to its eight-million point experience point cap if such a level would be, for all intents and purposes, unattainable. And if Black Isle continues its trend of dishing out tens of thousands of experience points for menial tasks, it shouldn't take too terribly long to reach that goal.

Originally posted by Varg:
As for powerlevelling vs "roleplaying" how much roleplaying was there really in the earlier games?(BG1 especially.)
I've always seen the BG series as focused on combat

Naturally. AD&D's focus is likewise on combat. What's important is to have a decent storyline to back it up, and BG has it in spades.

"Roleplaying" is a pretty ambiguous term. It seems that people equate roleplaying to everything but fighting. More combat = less roleplaying. Less combat = more roleplaying. I don't follow this line of thinking at all. Roleplaying, to me, is just that; playing a role. As long as I'm immersed in the character, I care about him, and I care about what's going on around him, I'm roleplaying. My $.02.

[Flagg]

Let me start by thanking everyone for posting their opinion.

Let me continue by asking a couple of questions:

1. Do you feel that games such as Throne of Bhaal will be harmful to the Forgotten Realms?

2. How would you all feel if they use the same trick as in Planescape, where you get most of the XP just before the final battle?

3. Does anyone know whether only the main character will be able to reach level 40, or is this also the case for your companions?

4. Would it be realistic to be running around with six characters that are above level 24? (between level 24 and 40)

5. How many people feel that the level 40 possibilities are only done to further boost sales? In other words, is it really necessary to create a good game?

6. What is the challenge once you are above level 30?

@T'lainya: I am looking forward to Morrowwind as well, but that will take another six to nine months at least. In the mean time there will of course be Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor.

[jndiii]

It's very easy to say that 40th level is just way too high, but I think people are forgetting the circumstances of the game.

1) You are part god.
2) You completed BG2 at 17th-23rd level.
3) Since you are a unique character in the Realms, you -are- as significant as Elminster and the rest.
4) Imagine what people would be saying about the expansion if it raised the limit to 25th level: "Yeah, right, like I'm gonna pay $30 to be able to cast 9th level spells." The recent drubbing that HoW received for adding so little plot to the game should come to mind. (HoW added plenty of usability features, but the plot was about 2 days of playing, which is rather limited for anything that calls itself a CRPG.)

They're saying that there's a 40th level maximum to indicate the size of the expansion. You won't be just trudging around with level-limited 20-25th characters with nowhere to go but sideways. They're saying that they're going to include challenges worthy of a high-level party. They're saying that they'd probably call it BG3, but they want the continuity of an expansion rather than a new game with all the character-importing issues that are entailed.

And of course, there's the power-gaming aspect of it. If that all there were to it, I'd be skeptical, but BioWare has earned my admiration for past games, and my trust for future games.

[Anatres]

A couple of questions also;

1) How old is Elminster?
2) How many game-days/weeks/months from Gorion's death to Hell?
3) Why are all NPCs that can/do join your party at the same relative level as the PC?
4) Just how many +umpteen pieces of equipment exist in Faerun?
5) Why not level 40 and +excess equipment if it sells games? (e.g. is what the gaming public wants/buys).
6) Why is CLUAConsole viewed as 'cheating' instead of as a tool for you the dungeon master to taylor the game/story?

I'll buy ToB (Throne of Bhaal) just because Bioware deserves my money for two and 1/2 great games! But there are other approaches.....

[T'lainya]

@ Flagg..shameless self advertising
As for you points.
1.I'm not sure TOB will be harmful to the realms, I think it takes some of the mystique out of the world though. After all the PC has passed most of the heroes by leaps and bounds.On the other hand, it might get more people reading the books. On a side note..Are WotC still trying to push the World of Greyhawk campaign?
2.I really don't care if all the xp come right before the final battle, it might balance the game better.
3.Sorry no idea
4.As I stated somewhere else, the whole party going above level 24 seems like it's too much. I can see the main pc that high IF they accept the slayer avatar, which I'm thinking is the plot for TOB. But then do they become a demigod? Lose all control to Bhaal (yes I know he's dead,but like Myrkul trying to come back)and is the pc still playable after that point?
5. I think the IWD and TOB caps are to boost sales, it wouldn't neccessarily detract from game play if it was extremely hard to obtain. In IWD not HOW, it was hard to hit the xp cap with a full party. In BG2 it was very easy to hit the cap. It was interesting at first to replay and think oh I remember there's a few skeletal warriors here..hehe OMG 2 liches and 4 skeletal warriors?!But as you learned the tactics, it wasn't that different. I got more enjoyment from the different NPCs interacting, Haer'dalis picking on Jaheira, Minsc and Aerie talking etc.
6. I honestly don't know. I suppose they can implement more demiliches, higher level mages etc but that seems like more of the what's already been done.My other concern has to do with game speed..a lot of people had freezes and slowdowns with high graphic intense situations..i.e. large battles and lots of spells..Is this going to make that worse?

[TheHellion]

Originally posted by Flagg:
Let me start by thanking everyone for posting their opinion.

Let me continue by asking a couple of questions:

1. Do you feel that games such as Throne of Bhaal will be harmful to the Forgotten Realms?

2. How would you all feel if they use the same trick as in Planescape, where you get most of the XP just before the final battle?

3. Does anyone know whether only the main character will be able to reach level 40, or is this also the case for your companions?

4. Would it be realistic to be running around with six characters that are above level 24? (between level 24 and 40)

5. How many people feel that the level 40 possibilities are only done to further boost sales? In other words, is it really necessary to create a good game?

6. What is the challenge once you are above level 30?

@T'lainya: I am looking forward to Morrowwind as well, but that will take another six to nine months at least. In the mean time there will of course be Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor.

1. Not in the sense that the setting will change because of the game. When using an established world, however, I think it's important to recognize certain boundries that exist in that world. Crossing those lines doesn't really do justice to the setting, and tends to take things out of perspective.

2. That would be an incredible, unbelievable, unforgivable gip. I don't think I'd be disappointed that my character didn't reach 40th level; I'd be disappointed in BioWare for being so misleading.

3. Here's what the preview at RPGPlanet had to say:

While on the Pocket Plane, you can summon any of the sixteen Baldur's Gate II NPCs that hadn't died in your game. Any NPCs you summon will have their levels adjusted to more closely match yours.

It isn't conclusive, but I'd imagine all the NPCs can advance pretty close alongside the main PC.

4. I don't think BioWare is aiming for realistic. ToB really goes beyond the scope of the Forgotten Realms. If you take a look at the history of the setting, 20th and 30th level NPCs are rulers of their own nations. Lady Alustriel, the Simbul, King Azoun IV, Khelben the Blackstaff, etc. BioWare's going to be making a lot of this up as they go along. It'll be interesting to see if they pull it off.

5. Hard to say. I think high levels are justified for where BioWare is steering the storyline, but I also believe that the storyline is a biproduct of those high levels. Are they necessary for a good game? Of course not. Baldur's Gate was great, and you could only reach 7th level.

6. Solars? Tarrasque? Great wyrm red dragon? Demi-Gods? Hell, I dunno.

[TheHellion]

Originally posted by Anatres:
A couple of questions also;

1) How old is Elminster?
2) How many game-days/weeks/months from Gorion's death to Hell?
3) Why are all NPCs that can/do join your party at the same relative level as the PC?
4) Just how many +umpteen pieces of equipment exist in Faerun?
5) Why not level 40 and +excess equipment if it sells games? (e.g. is what the gaming public wants/buys).
6) Why is CLUAConsole viewed as 'cheating' instead of as a tool for you the dungeon master to taylor the game/story?

I'll buy ToB (Throne of Bhaal) just because Bioware deserves my money for two and 1/2 great games! But there are other approaches.....

Here you go:

1. Nobody knows. Quite possibly the oldest living mortal in Faerun.

2. Not sure. Probably two or three months?

3. It's a balancing issue. Since you may or may not pick up an NPC at any given time, the game automatically adjusts said NPC to your level.

4. In all of Faerun? Right...

5. I'm not the gaming public. And frankly, when you base your game around a certain setting, I think it's important to respect the existing world. Elminster was around to see the fall of Myth Drannor, but your entire party surpasses him in a matter of months. Kinda weird.

6. Who the hell cares what anyone else thinks? If you don't consider it cheating, use it. All that matters is whether or not you enjoy the game. Pay no mind to someone else's petty judgements.

[Anatres]

Originally posted by TheHellion:

Originally posted by Anatres:
A couple of questions also;

1) How old is Elminster?
2) How many game-days/weeks/months from Gorion's death to Hell?
3) Why are all NPCs that can/do join your party at the same relative level as the PC?
4) Just how many +umpteen pieces of equipment exist in Faerun?
5) Why not level 40 and +excess equipment if it sells games? (e.g. is what the gaming public wants/buys).
6) Why is CLUAConsole viewed as 'cheating' instead of as a tool for you the dungeon master to taylor the game/story?

I'll buy ToB (Throne of Bhaal) just because Bioware deserves my money for two and 1/2 great games! But there are other approaches.....

Here you go:

1. Nobody knows. Quite possibly the oldest living mortal in Faerun.

2. Not sure. Probably two or three months?

3. It's a balancing issue. Since you may or may not pick up an NPC at any given time, the game automatically adjusts said NPC to your level.

4. In all of Faerun? Right...

5. I'm not the gaming public. And frankly, when you base your game around a certain setting, I think it's important to respect the existing world. Elminster was around to see the fall of Myth Drannor, but your entire party surpasses him in a matter of months. Kinda weird.

6. Who the hell cares what anyone else thinks? If you don't consider it cheating, use it. All that matters is whether or not you enjoy the game. Pay no mind to someone else's petty judgements.

OK. (Those questions were actually rethorical in nature )

1. If he is the oldest living person in Faerun and is only at level 26 or so then why has he stopped progressing in levels? Especially considering all the party members can, presumably, reach level 40 in ToB.

2. Boy time flys......

3. But Jaheira and Khalid have known Gorion for years. Why wouldn't they be at a higher level than the protagonist (who has just now started his/her adventuring career)? The same for most of the other NPCs in either game-and-a-half.

4. So I take it that your answer indicates that the number of powerful magic items in the game is really quite small considering the size/length of history of Faerun?

5. My sentiments exactly.

6. A can of worms that's been opened too many times before.


Interesting concepts, but then again it is only a game. And this time the Dungeon Master has an agenda of his own. Profit. Not that I have anything against that. It just seems to me that there could be a better way to structure a CRPG in a more true to form way. But then again, maybe not.

[Tom]

I got a hold of bg2 very late and have yet to finish it.
But in my opinion bg1 was a far better game for many reasons. The story line was better and was far more realistic - within its context of course.
It sounds like tob focuses, like bg2 to some extent does, too much on numbers, levels and bonuses.
But what really annoys me about all this high level stuff is that monsters that are supposed to be super intelligent fight with the intelligence of a goblin.
Many years ago (sigh) i remember how hard it was too be a dungeon master (pen and paper) when the players met foes that where supposedly super smart.
In the computer versions of rpgs this is much worse. in bg2 it is very easy to kill the shadow dragon quit early on. Dragons and liches are supposed to be geniuses - add too that the hundreds or thousands of years they have been around and it becomes a bit sad that they fight in very predictable ways.
I dont know much about making computer games but if programers can make very smart chess computers then surely it cant be that hard to do the same for rpgs.

If somebody out there is making another AD&D rpg then it would be nice if they spent more time on a good story than on thinking up +5 weapons.

Oh and keep the levels beneath 15

[ThorinOakensfield]

Answering Flaag's questions:
1)No since it's not a proper adventure and really is not related to Forgotten Realms. I mean adventuring in Amn. There are so many greater lands in the realms. This game is isolated in a small kingdom so it does not really effect any other land.
2)i think that's a good idea.
3)I don't know, but like in my post i believe only the pc can reach lv.40
4)No it wouldn't but like i said above on no. 1 its only in amn.
5)I believe it is to boost sales. There are very few people who fight 10 lichs, demons and dragons in a 100 days.
6)They'll just make greater versions of the same monsters. Great wyrms, demon lords, demi lichs, etc...

[Drakron Du´Dark]

ThorinOakensfield,no matter were its passed it still have "AD&D 2nd Ediction rules" bumper stiker on it, neither the Monk or the sorcerous class is a "normal" class under those rules.(it cames from the 3rd ediction rules), it sould stay on those rules.

40 level is sure a level that its takes far too long to get in "normal" AD&D but this is not normal AD&D, its a game, a story.
My belive is that we will see 30 level adventuring partys that will fight us in ToB, now because of that and other very powerful monsters (solars), 40 level is a requirement for just staying alive, now this have happened because of the very high level that we get on BG II, we go from a level 10 (TOSC imported) thief to a level 23 thief (or bard, the XP for levels is the same), now in BG III you could only advance 7 levels as a thief (since 30 is the max in normal AD&D), its was either a mistake on BioWare part or its something that was put because of recents events.(and have lead to ToB that started RIGHT AFTER BG II HIT THE STORES, that alone says something)
AD&D license ends on 2005, BioWare will make (we all hope) more games that are passed on AD&D worlds, getting the whole Bhall story out of their hair is a good move, it will make new games came even faster since it will no longer have to be relevent to the BG I and II story.
Now I will wait for ToB if BIoWare screw up....
they know that many hated the 30 level in HoW, now its ToB 40 level that is under attack, since they know the fan base does not like that, will it show up again....maybe it will, maybe it will not.
It remains to be seen, I hope that it will not.

[mitch007]

Why give Elmister, Drizzit and Irenicus all the fun of having great powers ?? I'm going to enjoy using a level 40 characters, if I want to use lvl 20 again, I will just start a new game!! why get too serious with forgotten realms ? it's just a fantasy world.
I play a high level characters with diablo2, final fantasy and even chrono cross.

the more I gain levels with these games the more I ENJOY it. and there is a lot of players think that Dragons, Mind Flayers and Liches are too powerful and smart to handle. only those of us who are already expert in BG2 can handle them easily.

Some of you guys wants big challenges but not everyone can catch up ! some of you wants a certain character like Drizzit to be bigger than life, but some players just want to crash them.

oh BTW. I never use XP cap remover, but I know a lot of players download them so they could become more powerful, and most of them use cheat codes just to win over some of these fight! I only wants to be challenge if I play mind games, strategy games and sports.
but not in RPG. I want to be more relax in RPG and enjoy the story and easy fight.


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I want to wreak havoc in the world of Forgotten Realms

[Kulkusa]

hmm, while my experience of Forgotten reallms is limited. I feel I have one or two things to say, which might have already been said here.

1, you are the son of Bhaal along with Saverok, and Imoen is the daugther, This is (almost without a doubt imo) the last of the Baldurs Gate series so it stands to reason that one of you (most likely the protagonist) will ascend to take your fathers place as some sort of god/demigod at the end of the game. ie you claim the Throne of Bhaal.

2, this means they could do the huge exp drop at the end idea which is pretty boring.

3, Drizzt as powerful as he is was not a god or similar just a Drow who decided to go outside and kick some ass for the other side and happened to be very good at it So the comparisons that drizzt could be so easily killed get lost a bit imho.

4, whether 9th level spells are the highest level possible or not a level 40 mage would have an incredible amount of 9th level spells which could really unbalance the game with time stop going off again every time it runs out.

hmm, I think 40this too high for sure but perhaps some sort of ascension for your heritage giving you abilities and a max of 30th level might have been more appropriate.

Kulkusa

[ThorinOakensfield]

Is there ever going to be a second dicussion?