Buying the plug-ins

Ashen · Post by **Ashen** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:31 am

Just an hour ago a friend of mine asked me if I was going to buy the Orrery plug in and I responded with a stelar lack of intelligence by saying - huh? Of course I've been over to see what Bethy is up to since then and am able to have a slightly more informed opinion.

I must say I have decided against it. I mean if they are going to charge 2$ for them do you know how much that will come out to be?! I mean we have had all these mods for MW and I am sure that once it gets going we will have them for OB as well. I am not too keen of this idea of Bethy's, at all. I mean where does it stop? How many plug ins? Three from what I've heard of for now, but how many next? Heck, it's 6$ already. For the horse armor, we get 2 new textures, so 2 bucks for two textures. Right. Do we pay for the patch next?

Expansion packs, bring them on, I am all for it. But like this, absolutely not. I want my free mods, plug ins and patches, i.e. what was known for MW. Thoughts?

Foss · Post by **Foss** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:48 am

I agree.

I don't like the idea that I have to pay to get something added in the game that for some reason is good to have according to the Devs.
I bought the game, and if they feel it wasen't completely ready they should either not have released it yet or simply make the new mods free of charge.
It smells a bit that a few weeks after the game is released they suddenly come up with some really cool stuff that should be in the game.
I know they already announced that there would be a Horse armor mod before the game was released which is a bit strange. Because IMO, you should make the game as good as it can be, and not hold out features that you can sell afterwards

Second of all, this is a single player game not an MMO. You don't get extra advantage over other players as you would do in an MMO, by buying these things.

mordib · Post by **mordib** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:18 am

im happy to pay for the orriety quest and the tower addon, plus any other map/quest eexpanding mods. things like the horse armour i will not be.

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:31 am

My main worry with these purchasable mods is that it will divide the third party modding community; in that some mods will require horse armour etc. Maybe not now when the mods are so 'lite' but if more advanced official mods are released, which contain meshes which modders wish to use, then it can complicate things.

Ashen · Post by **Ashen** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:53 pm

Yes, of course that is one of the main issues but not the only one when it comes to third party mods. From what I've been reading lately it is a question whether we will have mods like those in MW thanks to the issues with the TES CS.

And I mean this Orrery thing (I am not even going to comment on the armor) - the door at the Arc. Uni. marked as Orrery that you need a key for - I thought that sooner or later a quest regarding this will pop up. And now we see that it doesn't lead anywhere but that they simply didn't finish that on time. So now, they are going to sell it, as a new mod, because they didn't finish it on time and hey lets get more money. Well heck no. I mean as Foss here says put back the release date but finish the game, or give the mod for free. But some of us payed 60$ for it and now we have to pay more for what should have been in the game, obviously. What else are they holding out on?

Very bad move IMO. Am really disappointed.

fullymodo · Post by **fullymodo** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:19 pm

add-on extortion

This is a really horrible precedent. We gladly pay the $80 for Oblivion, and I'm sure we all appreciate the tremendous amount of work and effort that went into a title of its caliber; but to start charging for tiny little additions smacks of "cash grab" to me. It smells like corporate mentality -- and it stinks.
If they release no expansion packs, and just offer the upgrades and extra quests piecemeal, that's OK, but still dubious (I'd bet you'll end up paying more for less that way); but, if they also tack on expansion packs such as Bloodmoon and Tribunal for TESIII and charge us again... well, you see my point.
I'm boycotting the additions from Bethesda, as I hope you will too. I'm eager to see what the modding community comes out with for free -- or are we to pay for these now? Will modders need to purchase a license from Bethesda?

Hey, Bethesda, I've got some great ideas! How about, like after a month or so of playing, you get a message from the company saying "send us $20 or your character gets it". If you don't cough up and re-activate, your game fatally crashes. You could put that in the next patch (for which you could charge us $5 each, of course)! That would be awesome! E-ransom!

Ashen · Post by **Ashen** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:25 pm

Nah, the third party mods have to be free, otherwise it's illigal. I mean I want to be cool-headed about this. And honestly I wouldn't care except to not buy these mods and think really carefully next time I want to buy something from Bethy. The talk about issues with the possible really big mods is what annoys me terribly, especially in the light of this.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:55 pm

I'm neither for it nor against it, but I do think devoting the energies of even five staff people to turning out these plug-ins when the product has just been placed on the market will inevitably give rise to the question, "Did you just hold this content back from the final code to make more money?" It seems as though Bethsoft is seeking a way to turn what the player modding community has done for free over the last four years to their personal monetary advantage--and that strikes me as rather cynical.

EDIT: I should add that I will not be buying any of these official plug-ins. Bethsoft already has my money for the game, and that should be enough for them.

stillodium · Post by **stillodium** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:19 pm

For one thing i hope this thread doesnt come to resemble those on the official forums...

I have to say i am quite annoyed myself, 2$ for horse armor is perplexing, if i didn't know better i'd say they were bankrupt or something and this was a cry for help, not to mention a very delicate precedent (especially since chances are it's gonna be a success)...but...given the fact that all these plugins are optional and marginal (story/gameplay wise) i can't help noticing the good side, a fair chunk of the developers is going to stay actively involved in modding.

I certainly will not buy the horse armor, the Orrery seems interesting and i can say that i will pay 2 bucks for the tower. Professional mods that do not conflict and that i hope will become quite interesting further down the line is all in all a good thing.

The only downside would be if they should decide to kill off the competition by not releasing an exporter, but i don't see that happening, it would make a way too brutal statement and they certainly could not afford it.

All in all great mods from the community and optional 2 $ mods from the developers themselves, not my idea of the perfect deal but given the need for plugins on the console and Bethesda's inability of giving them free (after all Microsoft takes a share of everithing) i find it to be quite equitable.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:23 pm

[QUOTE=stillodium]For one thing i hope this thread doesnt come to resemble those on the official forums...[/QUOTE]

It won't. The forum rules don't allow it to degenerate into flames. If any posts do, they will be removed, and the posters warned.

Ashen · Post by **Ashen** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:35 am

I think we can talk nicely enough

I was talking to a lot of people I know who are into games etc about this new development. And some of them do use pirated copies except for games like these, or NWN etc. They actually buy those, from what I gather they feel the work is well worth the price. Let's face it through, a decent net connection and no price at all so it is good to see that the games are actually being bought.

And of course no suprise there, most of them are rather miffed by this move. Guess what the reaction is? There's always torrents. I think Bethy is really doing itself a huge disservice by asking for money for these mods so soon after release, it is turning away it's rather faithful fans.

stillodium · Post by **stillodium** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:57 am

Indeed... the torrents.

Let's face it, unless you are new to the net/computer thing and you still believe that the FBI/Interpol will get you

you are bound to "get curious". Most times they even appear a week before the release date on the net.

That said i agree completely, very bad move by them, frankly seeing the path oblivion takes the series (as a gaming experience), and the way they handled the distress in the modding comunity really puts one off.

It would never even cross my mind not to buy a BioWare or Obsidian game, be it for the money or not they actually listen, show some common sense transparency and ultimately show you they care by releasing another great product, THE product, cause though i must admit Olivion is a good game it certainly wasn't what i payed for when i bought the next in line after Morrowind.

I still find Bethesda to be a great games developer, it's just becoming hard not to see them as a single-purpose corporation.

Ashen · Post by **Ashen** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:09 pm

Well a friend decided to fork out cash for the Orrery and I just got back from his place where I got to do the quest - *spoilers ahead*

It consists of a single quest that we completed in about 20 minutes, some very weak fights, no puzzles, nothing really to solve, just kill some people and collect 4 items. The orrery is nicely done - I got vertigo though from it - but the spells are nothing special, plus you can only have one at a time, not all.

So all in all, I am sticking to my original thoughts, not worth it at all, and I seriously think that there is no way they couldn't have added this for the game they sold. They just didn't want to.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:39 pm

I'd understand it if this was something like a Bloodmoon expansion. But for this I won't pay. But honestly, as far as buying rediculous stuff goes, in today's MMO oriented gaming economy this hardly comes off as unusual anymore. Except for the part that this isn't an MMO of course.
Although, these things aren't limited to gaming. Do you have any idea how much money is made on downloading tunes/pictures for your cellphone? All this.. micro marketing or whatever you want to call it is just a fad.
I can respect Bethesda for trying to tag along with those giants. It's a stupid experiment, of course, but I can level with the idea of trying.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:45 pm

It's not just a stupid idea, it's terrible PR. If you owned a company that put out a game without mods it just might work, but with a huge third party mod community, it gives the impression of a direct slap-in-the-face. It looks like Bethsoft (whether true or not) is going into direct competition with modders, this after having grabbed some of the best modding community's ideas in Morrowind for its own in Oblivion. There are a lot of displeased modders and mod users out there, and I really don't expect this level of displeasure to die down for some time to come.

Phreddie · Post by **Phreddie** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:28 pm

If I may ask for those of you who bought/played the Orrery quest, what are the powers? you can post them in black as you wish, however I would like to know what I might be shedding out two bucks for. The powers may not be so special to you, but others may be extremely interested.

Niteowl3915 · Post by **Niteowl3915** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:13 am

It think it's accurate to say that Bethsoft is going into competion with the modding community, but is that really a bad thing?
I mean a company that incorporates popular third party ideas into their software is a company that reacts to its fan base, which is something I'm supposing we all really want.
But this level of commercialism is appalling.
Granted that there are certain items a company does not have time to finish before the release date, but in this case the proper thing to do would be to release the mod for free to all users.
There was a time when the popular opinion was that expansion packs in general were nothing but a shallow attempt to incorporate odds and ends of code into an "add on game" (as the concept was foreign at the time) in order to make more money. Gradually as time passed the idea became acceptable, and the concept of a person willfully paying the company more as a way to support the company and game emerged.
But at least then the true believer could argue that a company put a decent amount of extra time into the product, so why shouldn't they be further compensated?
But now with the horse armor for instance, one team of developers is able to generate who knows how much more revenue at the expense of goodwill, which Bethsoft is able to abuse due to it's HUGE fanbase,
This sets a horrific precedent, and I for one won't be buying any addons.
I bought the Xbox 360 version of the game however, meaning that I don't have access to the user created content that all you pc dudes do. So I'm stuck with no alternative.
I very sincerely hope that Microsoft makes user created content available over XBL. I mean they promised to do that to begin with right?

mordib · Post by **mordib** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:22 am

Theres that parable i feel is relevant to this debate - A scorpion, being a very poor swimmer, asked a turtle to carry him on his back across a river. "Are you mad?" exclaimed the turtle. "You'll sting me while I'm swimming and I'll drown."

"My dear turtle," laughed the scorpion, "if I were to sting you, you would drown and I would go down with you. Now where is the logic in that?"

"You're right!" cried the turtle. "Hop on!" The scorpion climbed aboard and halfway across the river gave the turtle a mighty sting. As they both sank to the bottom, the turtle resignedly said:

"Do you mind if I ask you something? You said there'd be no logic in your stinging me. Why did you do it?"

"It has nothing to do with logic," the drowning scorpion sadly replied. "It's just my character." (Braude, 1965)

----------------------------

A business not out to make money is called a charity. A successful business will never do good deeds unless it is in their interests to do so. Bethesda know the modding community will continue to make mods no matter what and that the extra profits they will make from these add ons will far out way any loss of income from die hard modding loyalists on future games (which I would estimate at nearly 0). I know their PR people would most likely argue me into the ground on this point, that they are not competing or making the quick buck and that they do care about the communities views, and I know the community clearly think they should have a say... but this is simply how business works and as such unless people are capable of affecting demand for the addons on a massive scale then there is nothing that can be done and no reason to get upset about it...

EDIT: Ive sucumbed and bought the orararararatory add on, i will add a fully spoiler hidden desciption of it tonight...

Ashen · Post by **Ashen** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:40 am

The spells as I remember them:

All are on the basis of fortify/drain. We were too lazy to wait around but basically depending on the moon or whatever, you get different ones. For example my friend decided to keep M...something Might - that is fortify 20pts STR on the account of draining 20 pts of SPD. Useful? I think not but indeed someone might.

I agree with Fable here, the level of displeasure is rather high. And not even among the modders, but among the hard core players as well. I suppose I move around those circles and while indeed the games were never tailored for them, they did always make a significant impact on what happened to the game. This won't die down, and it is a terrible idea really. It may impact less at this moment but long term - and to me that is the only think a company like Bethy can rely on - they will loose and that's what I don't understand.

I mean if these mods came monts after, and were really well thought out, had new land, quests, etc then there would be something to talk about. Like this you feel there wasn't much effort at all in this, you feel cheated that this wasn't in the game you bought for 55 Euroes in the first place when it was meant to be etc, etc. They are a business, I agree but this is plain and simple bad business. If you go about the TES forums you'll see people actually talking about leeching out in the open. That is not what this community is about, or was about. People are highly displeased.

Niteowl3915 · Post by **Niteowl3915** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:53 am

I mean of course. I totally agree with you guys that Bethsoft is a business and obviously out to make money. But this is very clearly a corruption of capitalism and where it leads I'm not sure I want to be.
Granted that my argument employs a slippery slope fallacy, but is it not valid here?
"Premium" versions of games were bad enough.
Props for the parable too mordib

I was really frustrated about the orrery too. Pretty much the sole reason for me getting to arch mage was to get into the orrery, and when I finally get the Arch Mage's key and it doesn't work on the orrery door!?
The orrery (if done well that is) might be worth a couble of dollars, but a couple months from now.