I've been playing a LOT recently, and I decided that the game was too easy when you play with all six party slots filled.
So, I now only play with four member parties(including the PC). After a miserable failure with my first four-member party, I have been gradually getting better. I now know that 1) if you don't have a thief to pick pockets and disarm traps, you will never get enough gold for decent equipment, 2) You only need 1 mage to buff up your party and beat enemy spellcasters and 3) You need two tanks. Also, you need a healer and a ranged fighter for support, which makes things tricky.
But I want some feedback: what would be your ideal four person party? Which NPCs should I choose, or what custom characters should I make?
I don't want to install any mods for this run-through of the game. I don't think it's even possible to win(with a four person party) with tactics/ascension/whatever installed. Besides, tactics is just one big ball of cheese.
P.S. bonus points if you can make the party out of characters that don't make any sense. I.e., a halfling kensai or a dwarven swashbuckler or the like.
Perfect four member party
Perfect four member party
I'm less than normal. Deal with it.
Under your guidelines (which I'm not sure I'd agree with), I'd go for a Swashbuckler->Mage (mage and thief, and can fight a bit too), Ranger/Cleric (priest that can tank quite well and knows all divine spells), Inquisitor (Tank that dispells) and an Archer.
However, were I not using your guidelines, I'd go for a Swashbuckler->Mage, Ranger/Cleric, Inquisitor and a Kensai->Mage.
I disagree with your guidelines in these ways:
I don't think you need a specific ranged supporter, because nearly any character can throw a dart or launch an arrow pretty well.
The more mages you have, the better.
Also, priests are more useful for spells other than healing. Use potions.
However, were I not using your guidelines, I'd go for a Swashbuckler->Mage, Ranger/Cleric, Inquisitor and a Kensai->Mage.
I disagree with your guidelines in these ways:
I don't think you need a specific ranged supporter, because nearly any character can throw a dart or launch an arrow pretty well.
The more mages you have, the better.
Also, priests are more useful for spells other than healing. Use potions.
Evil:
You (Fighter/Thief)
Korgan
Edwin
Viconia
You've got one mage, one cleric, one thief and two fighters.
Good:
You (Mage/Thief)
Jaheira
Minsc
Aerie
You've got two mages, one cleric, one thief, one druid and two fighters (Jah and Minsc)
Wacky:
You (Wild Mage/Fighter (or Thief, or Cleric), although you'd need SK. Great character with loads of fun attached to it.)
NPC 1 (A Druid class, Beast Master for example, dualled to Fighter)
NPC 2 (Thief/Illusionist)
NPC 3 (Beserker dualled to Cleric)
It's all up to the class you want to play, really.
You (Fighter/Thief)
Korgan
Edwin
Viconia
You've got one mage, one cleric, one thief and two fighters.
Good:
You (Mage/Thief)
Jaheira
Minsc
Aerie
You've got two mages, one cleric, one thief, one druid and two fighters (Jah and Minsc)
Wacky:
You (Wild Mage/Fighter (or Thief, or Cleric), although you'd need SK. Great character with loads of fun attached to it.)
NPC 1 (A Druid class, Beast Master for example, dualled to Fighter)
NPC 2 (Thief/Illusionist)
NPC 3 (Beserker dualled to Cleric)
It's all up to the class you want to play, really.
"Sometimes Dreams are wiser than waking"
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Luis Antonio
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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New Party
Alright, I have taken your suggestions and made a new party.
This is what I have:
Fighter/mage/cleric
Fighter/thief
Ranger/cleric
Wild mage
It has two tanks and one semi-tank, two casters, two healers/buffers and one thief.
And Schu, those weren't guidelines.
Alright, I have taken your suggestions and made a new party.
This is what I have:
Fighter/mage/cleric
Fighter/thief
Ranger/cleric
Wild mage
It has two tanks and one semi-tank, two casters, two healers/buffers and one thief.
And Schu, those weren't guidelines.
I'm less than normal. Deal with it.
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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Actually, I like the Idea of Wild Mage. I have a problem with the fighter/mage/cleric. Maybe try something like a berserker-->ceric or mage or kensai-->mage.
like Amran said, you're gonna get your ass handed to you if you try to play that party.
like Amran said, you're gonna get your ass handed to you if you try to play that party.
Boo will have clean wood shavings you evil bastards! -Minsc
Luke Schenn will make you pregnant with a glance. Caution is advised.
Luke Schenn will make you pregnant with a glance. Caution is advised.
[QUOTE=Draconin]I've been playing a LOT recently, and I decided that the game was too easy when you play with all six party slots filled. So, I now only play with four member parties(including the PC)...[/QUOTE]
On the contrary, I think a four member party has the potential to be even more powerful than a six member party, at least at mid-level, since a four member party is higher in level. For example, a party that has access to 9th level Wizard spells is much more powerful than a party that is limited to 7th or 8th level spells. Turn Undead and Dispel/Remove Magic also come into play (if you use them).
The last time I played BG1, my party consisted of a Cleric/Ranger and Imoen (a 9th Level Thief dualled to a 10th Level Mage). At 600,000 experience points each, they were much more powerful than a party of six who had 200,000 experience points each, even without using spells such as Iron Skins, Stoneskin, Insect Plague, etc. Of course, BG1 wasn't designed for characters who have more than 161,000 experience points, but that just goes to show that even in smaller numbers, higher level characters rule the game.
[QUOTE=Draconin]After a miserable failure with my first four-member party, I have been gradually getting better. I now know that 1) if you don't have a thief to pick pockets and disarm traps, you will never get enough gold for decent equipment, 2) You only need 1 mage to buff up your party and beat enemy spellcasters and 3) You need two tanks. Also, you need a healer and a ranged fighter for support, which makes things tricky.[/QUOTE]
1) Potions of Master Thieving "stack", so you can rob from anyone if your Thief drinks a few of them. Just don't go over 255 points. 2) I think it's better for party members to buff themselves with items or potions and let your spellcasters memorize spells that weaken the enemy party with spells like Greater Malison, Glitterdust, Emotion, Hold Monster, Breach, Maze, etc. Everyone in your party can do something to make the party stronger. 3) Yes, two tanks work well, especially if you master the fine art of tag-teaming. 4) In a game without mods, you can get by without ranged support, and you don't need a dedicated healer who only memorizes healing spells, as long as you play carefully. Your Mages should rarely get scratched if you position them carefully, and you should minimize the threat to your tanks with Hold Monster, Emotion, stunning effects, Time Stop, Maze, etc.
[QUOTE=Draconin]What would be your ideal four person party? Which NPCs should I choose, or what custom characters should I make?[/QUOTE]
Maybe I've done too much meta-gaming, but my last game went very well with only four party members. I started with a Sorcerer, Imoen, and Yoshimo in Irenicus's dungeon. I changed Yoshimo to a 7th Level Kensai dualled to a Thief (same stats and 161,000 experience points). When I had that area cleared out, I picked up Jaheira. My short-term goal was to get my Sorcerer and Yoshimo levelled up as fast as I could. Jaheira was sort of just a disposable character who helped the group until they were strong enough on their own. I did the easy quests first like the Copper Coronet, the Graveyard, Mae'Var's guild, etc. I kept the party small so they would advance rapidly. When my Sorcerer had about 600,000 experience points, I knew it was time to pick up Aerie, who had 800,000 experience points before I even met her. I changed her to a Cleric/Illusionist and loaded up her spellbook. Then I picked up Saerileth, who had 750,000 experience points, and changed her to an Inquisitor. They went to the Guarded Compound, which was a very tough fight, so that Yoshimo could acquire Celestial Fury, which is one of the cheesiest items in the game. Yoshimo carried the group by backstabbing and stunning the most powerful monsters in Chapter Two. (He stole all of the Shadow Thieves' Invisibility Potions, among other things.) At some point, I ditched Jaheira after I did a couple of the Harper quests. I justified it for roleplaying reasons by saying that my party didn't need someone who was loyal to a secret organization that posed a threat to me and tried to interfere with my quests. At one point, I let Nalia into the group (I edited her and put all of her Thieving points into Pickpocketing), but I quickly grew tired of her banter, but not before we robbed from the rich and gave to the poor.
Imoen replaced Yoshimo in Spellhold; I raised her Strength to 17 and changed her to a Kensai/Thief. (Like other party members, she wore a strength-enhancing item, so her native stats weren't very important.) She became a much more effective "tank" when she acquired Use Any Item and started wearing armor and the Helm of Vhailor; before that, she did a lot of backstabbing and stunning with Celestial Fury. She had the most kills until my Sorcerer acquired Project Image, Horrid Wilting, and Time Stop. After that, the battles in Shadows of Amn became almost trivial. The hardest battles were the result of mods (Glourkist and his minions, Improved Mae'Var, and a couple of others). Aerie was getting pretty powerful, too. With the right items, Saerileth (Inquisitor) was a great tank, and her True Sight and Dispel Magic were very useful. I picked up Sarevok in Throne of Bhaal since I needed another tank. I had my doubts about whether I really needed him until I reached Ascension, and then I was glad he was there. When half of my party is standing around while one or two characters are doing all of the work, I know I don't need a full party of six.
If you want some recommendations that are "outside the box", I think you should consider doing what I did: adjusting your party size as circumstances warrant instead of starting with four party members and keeping all of them permanently. Besides, I wasn't really trying to create a "perfect" party; I was just trying to play with the characters I wanted in my party. That's why I don't have any second thoughts about editing NPCs to get what I want. I figure out how I want to play (in my last game, I wanted to "meta-game", among other things), and then I go from there. I really think that's the best approach.
On the contrary, I think a four member party has the potential to be even more powerful than a six member party, at least at mid-level, since a four member party is higher in level. For example, a party that has access to 9th level Wizard spells is much more powerful than a party that is limited to 7th or 8th level spells. Turn Undead and Dispel/Remove Magic also come into play (if you use them).
The last time I played BG1, my party consisted of a Cleric/Ranger and Imoen (a 9th Level Thief dualled to a 10th Level Mage). At 600,000 experience points each, they were much more powerful than a party of six who had 200,000 experience points each, even without using spells such as Iron Skins, Stoneskin, Insect Plague, etc. Of course, BG1 wasn't designed for characters who have more than 161,000 experience points, but that just goes to show that even in smaller numbers, higher level characters rule the game.
[QUOTE=Draconin]After a miserable failure with my first four-member party, I have been gradually getting better. I now know that 1) if you don't have a thief to pick pockets and disarm traps, you will never get enough gold for decent equipment, 2) You only need 1 mage to buff up your party and beat enemy spellcasters and 3) You need two tanks. Also, you need a healer and a ranged fighter for support, which makes things tricky.[/QUOTE]
1) Potions of Master Thieving "stack", so you can rob from anyone if your Thief drinks a few of them. Just don't go over 255 points. 2) I think it's better for party members to buff themselves with items or potions and let your spellcasters memorize spells that weaken the enemy party with spells like Greater Malison, Glitterdust, Emotion, Hold Monster, Breach, Maze, etc. Everyone in your party can do something to make the party stronger. 3) Yes, two tanks work well, especially if you master the fine art of tag-teaming. 4) In a game without mods, you can get by without ranged support, and you don't need a dedicated healer who only memorizes healing spells, as long as you play carefully. Your Mages should rarely get scratched if you position them carefully, and you should minimize the threat to your tanks with Hold Monster, Emotion, stunning effects, Time Stop, Maze, etc.
[QUOTE=Draconin]What would be your ideal four person party? Which NPCs should I choose, or what custom characters should I make?[/QUOTE]
Maybe I've done too much meta-gaming, but my last game went very well with only four party members. I started with a Sorcerer, Imoen, and Yoshimo in Irenicus's dungeon. I changed Yoshimo to a 7th Level Kensai dualled to a Thief (same stats and 161,000 experience points). When I had that area cleared out, I picked up Jaheira. My short-term goal was to get my Sorcerer and Yoshimo levelled up as fast as I could. Jaheira was sort of just a disposable character who helped the group until they were strong enough on their own. I did the easy quests first like the Copper Coronet, the Graveyard, Mae'Var's guild, etc. I kept the party small so they would advance rapidly. When my Sorcerer had about 600,000 experience points, I knew it was time to pick up Aerie, who had 800,000 experience points before I even met her. I changed her to a Cleric/Illusionist and loaded up her spellbook. Then I picked up Saerileth, who had 750,000 experience points, and changed her to an Inquisitor. They went to the Guarded Compound, which was a very tough fight, so that Yoshimo could acquire Celestial Fury, which is one of the cheesiest items in the game. Yoshimo carried the group by backstabbing and stunning the most powerful monsters in Chapter Two. (He stole all of the Shadow Thieves' Invisibility Potions, among other things.) At some point, I ditched Jaheira after I did a couple of the Harper quests. I justified it for roleplaying reasons by saying that my party didn't need someone who was loyal to a secret organization that posed a threat to me and tried to interfere with my quests. At one point, I let Nalia into the group (I edited her and put all of her Thieving points into Pickpocketing), but I quickly grew tired of her banter, but not before we robbed from the rich and gave to the poor.
Imoen replaced Yoshimo in Spellhold; I raised her Strength to 17 and changed her to a Kensai/Thief. (Like other party members, she wore a strength-enhancing item, so her native stats weren't very important.) She became a much more effective "tank" when she acquired Use Any Item and started wearing armor and the Helm of Vhailor; before that, she did a lot of backstabbing and stunning with Celestial Fury. She had the most kills until my Sorcerer acquired Project Image, Horrid Wilting, and Time Stop. After that, the battles in Shadows of Amn became almost trivial. The hardest battles were the result of mods (Glourkist and his minions, Improved Mae'Var, and a couple of others). Aerie was getting pretty powerful, too. With the right items, Saerileth (Inquisitor) was a great tank, and her True Sight and Dispel Magic were very useful. I picked up Sarevok in Throne of Bhaal since I needed another tank. I had my doubts about whether I really needed him until I reached Ascension, and then I was glad he was there. When half of my party is standing around while one or two characters are doing all of the work, I know I don't need a full party of six.
If you want some recommendations that are "outside the box", I think you should consider doing what I did: adjusting your party size as circumstances warrant instead of starting with four party members and keeping all of them permanently. Besides, I wasn't really trying to create a "perfect" party; I was just trying to play with the characters I wanted in my party. That's why I don't have any second thoughts about editing NPCs to get what I want. I figure out how I want to play (in my last game, I wanted to "meta-game", among other things), and then I go from there. I really think that's the best approach.
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Luis Antonio
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The real thing is: there's no perfect four members party. There's no perfect party. There's only a party that adjusts better to your playing skills. A newcomer to BG might want a heavy mellee party, with three, four fighters. I am now playing with two frontliners (not heavy tanks, only one heavy tank) and the rest of my party goes to support functions and releasing magical doom to the enemies. If I was playing a party of four, this would be ok for me:
Inquisitor - With his dispell hability you can go through the worst enemies in tactics and with Carsormir he's ubber.
Jaheira - No matter what you say her druid spells rock at the end of the game, and she can hold the enemies for a rather long time. (romance)
Haerdalis - The epitome of magical and song cheesiness. Need I to say more?
Xan or Tashia or Jan Jansen, possibly Jan Jansen always. For magical backup.
Ready. That's a powerhouse.
I would also think about something like that:
Fighter/Thief
Viconia (Romance)
Korgan
Edwin
Or, like this:
Fighter/Mage
Jan Jansen
Imoen (before her I'd use Yoshimo)
Aerie (Romance)
Inquisitor - With his dispell hability you can go through the worst enemies in tactics and with Carsormir he's ubber.
Jaheira - No matter what you say her druid spells rock at the end of the game, and she can hold the enemies for a rather long time. (romance)
Haerdalis - The epitome of magical and song cheesiness. Need I to say more?
Xan or Tashia or Jan Jansen, possibly Jan Jansen always. For magical backup.
Ready. That's a powerhouse.
I would also think about something like that:
Fighter/Thief
Viconia (Romance)
Korgan
Edwin
Or, like this:
Fighter/Mage
Jan Jansen
Imoen (before her I'd use Yoshimo)
Aerie (Romance)
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
[QUOTE=Berethor]Actually, I like the Idea of Wild Mage. I have a problem with the fighter/mage/cleric. Maybe try something like a berserker-->ceric or mage or kensai-->mage.
like Amran said, you're gonna get your ass handed to you if you try to play that party.[/QUOTE]
I am going to disagree with you on this one.The F/M/C is deadly in the right hands since this class can just about cast every spell in the game making them good support for the party.The fighter skills can also come in handy in a tough spot at high levels.The class can be slow to level but with a 4 man party they will level pretty fast and having a fighter that can beef with cleric spells and then with mage spell add to that down right scary.
like Amran said, you're gonna get your ass handed to you if you try to play that party.[/QUOTE]
I am going to disagree with you on this one.The F/M/C is deadly in the right hands since this class can just about cast every spell in the game making them good support for the party.The fighter skills can also come in handy in a tough spot at high levels.The class can be slow to level but with a 4 man party they will level pretty fast and having a fighter that can beef with cleric spells and then with mage spell add to that down right scary.
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=darkraven]I am going to disagree with you on this one.The F/M/C is deadly in the right hands since this class can just about cast every spell in the game making them good support for the party.The fighter skills can also come in handy in a tough spot at high levels.The class can be slow to level but with a 4 man party they will level pretty fast and having a fighter that can beef with cleric spells and then with mage spell add to that down right scary.[/QUOTE]
Yes. However, the FMT is by far better to use (he can hide in shadows and beggin combats backstabbing and triggering). Once leveled up, however, the FCM can trigger cleric spells too. Can use sanctuary pretty early (very usefull spell for soloing). Can use pixie dust, then emotion, then, to kill the undead nearby, false dawn.
I like FCM, the only problem is that FMT has the UAI hability, which rules the world.
Yes. However, the FMT is by far better to use (he can hide in shadows and beggin combats backstabbing and triggering). Once leveled up, however, the FCM can trigger cleric spells too. Can use sanctuary pretty early (very usefull spell for soloing). Can use pixie dust, then emotion, then, to kill the undead nearby, false dawn.
I like FCM, the only problem is that FMT has the UAI hability, which rules the world.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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Getting a C/Mage to wear full plate but still have a 17/16 int and wis combo has only been accomplished once by me - this including no infamous 3 stats for cha or dex etc.
Creating a F/M/C that can use a flail (13str I think) whilst still having a reasonable spell casting and dex stat roll seems impossible.
Ofcourse these stat rolls exclude the use of Shadowkeeper but if that doesn't bother you go ahead.
Getting a C/Mage to wear full plate but still have a 17/16 int and wis combo has only been accomplished once by me - this including no infamous 3 stats for cha or dex etc.
Creating a F/M/C that can use a flail (13str I think) whilst still having a reasonable spell casting and dex stat roll seems impossible.
Ofcourse these stat rolls exclude the use of Shadowkeeper but if that doesn't bother you go ahead.
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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On another note, does anyone think it is possible to go through tactics, ascension, apack etc with only 4 custom made npcs ?
This includes the mod that removes traps and locks - as such I think that creating the character in TOB then importing seems reasonable all things considered - difficulty and enormity of battles, no lock and traps to pick, but this does give the benefit of having a mage being able to memorize 8 level spells...
Views appreciated.
On another note, does anyone think it is possible to go through tactics, ascension, apack etc with only 4 custom made npcs ?
This includes the mod that removes traps and locks - as such I think that creating the character in TOB then importing seems reasonable all things considered - difficulty and enormity of battles, no lock and traps to pick, but this does give the benefit of having a mage being able to memorize 8 level spells...
Views appreciated.
The simple answer is: with four characters your game will only be easier. I'm not sure where, but I recall VonDondu pleading for the case that four were stronger than six, due to them leveling up faster. Check one of the latest threads that discuss party composition (yes, I know there're a lot of those...).
Edit: Von's post is actually in this thread. Ain't I attentive.
Edit: Von's post is actually in this thread. Ain't I attentive.
"Sometimes Dreams are wiser than waking"
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=Sytze]The simple answer is: with four characters your game will only be easier. I'm not sure where, but I recall VonDondu pleading for the case that four were stronger than six, due to them leveling up faster. Check one of the latest threads that discuss party composition (yes, I know there're a lot of those...).[/QUOTE]
The only problem is reaching 6th level magics...
The only problem is reaching 6th level magics...
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=Sytze]I don't quite follow, Luis. How's this a problem with a four person party?[/QUOTE]
Oh, after the 6th spell level you get all cheesy illusion spells, and that helps a lot. Also, you're more leveled with your fighters, and you're supposed to have more items. I just think a fresh four members party from Irenicus Dungeon not strong enough to cope with cheese in the Tactics mod (even though I've done Mae'var several occasions with a party of six right after leaving Irenicus Chateau).
Oh, after the 6th spell level you get all cheesy illusion spells, and that helps a lot. Also, you're more leveled with your fighters, and you're supposed to have more items. I just think a fresh four members party from Irenicus Dungeon not strong enough to cope with cheese in the Tactics mod (even though I've done Mae'var several occasions with a party of six right after leaving Irenicus Chateau).
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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Cwell the fine
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I'm a fan of the 4 person party. If I were to create all of the NPC's, my party would look something like this:
Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger
Elf Fighter/Mage/Thief
Gnome Fighter/Illusionist
Human Paladin (Inquisitor)
The Cleric/Ranger is your main healer, and makes a great tank. The Fighter/Mage/Thief is your utility back-up guy, used mainly as an archer and can handle all of the thieving duties as well as some buffing magic. The Gnome Fighter/Illusionist is probably the most powerful character. He makes a great tank, is an awesome spellcaster, and resists most spells. The Inquisitor is for taking down enemy mages -- fast.
Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger
Elf Fighter/Mage/Thief
Gnome Fighter/Illusionist
Human Paladin (Inquisitor)
The Cleric/Ranger is your main healer, and makes a great tank. The Fighter/Mage/Thief is your utility back-up guy, used mainly as an archer and can handle all of the thieving duties as well as some buffing magic. The Gnome Fighter/Illusionist is probably the most powerful character. He makes a great tank, is an awesome spellcaster, and resists most spells. The Inquisitor is for taking down enemy mages -- fast.
the four person party makes the game harder in the early stages, but one or two quests into chapter two and you will notice a difference.
if you have ToB installed, the four person party is immensely powerful and after half of chapter two's quests, you won't face a challenge until the very end of the expansion.
having said that, with npcs, for a balance of banter and power, i'd go with minsc, jan, jaheira and a fighter/mage
if you have ToB installed, the four person party is immensely powerful and after half of chapter two's quests, you won't face a challenge until the very end of the expansion.
having said that, with npcs, for a balance of banter and power, i'd go with minsc, jan, jaheira and a fighter/mage