The primary issues with oblivion - lets discuss...

mordib · Post by **mordib** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:09 am

ok, this is a thread aimed at identifying and discussing the major issues in oblivion. This does NOT include a million random little bugs you've experienced (as valid as they may be) but more re-occuring concepts that have proven flawed as you've proceeded with the game and that everyone is likely to experience. I'd also like to keep it from bcoming a whinging thread, if people could remain constructive in their comments

NOTE: please rememebr to mark out spoilers!

here's a few I have experienced to start us off...

EDIT: part 1... i've run out of time!

Radiant AI killed my quest!

We've briefly touched on this in another thread, the idea that since NPC's can randomly interact with each other that its possible fights will start out that have nothing to do with you. This also includes character 'going for a walk' and getting killed by random wildlife.

Now on the surface this is an absolutely great concept, it certainly helps create a believable world, alas the way the 'quests' system is designed it ends up working more like a bug than a natural event. The problem is that whilst key quest characters cannot be killed many lesser quest characters can and when they die the game fails to do anything about it - if its a mision you're already on the mission gets stuck in your 'curent quests' forever, and no alternatives are offered in providing that NPC's unique info or skills. This is especially prevelant for advanced training NPCs.

SPOILER (about the main quest) : Once you have done the 'spies' mission and all the oblivion gates open you start to get assasins in all the major cities who rather than atacking you tend to just go around killing random npc's, this has so far lead to 5 seperate minor quest characters being killled in my game so far..

Rumours and General Conversation

Now with hundreds of characters I'm not honestly suprised this area of the game is far from great. I totally appreciate each character is not going to be able to hold an in depth conversation or have original information.

The issue is that whilst people will often tell you new rumors based on your own recent achievements, beyond that peoples responses and topic choices dont take into account major happenings at all.

-Your titles and ranks mean nothing.
-someone can comment on your achievements then act like theyhave never heard of you.
-'you have much to learn!' when you are higher rank than they are in a particular skill
-people that youve upset during certain quests will not talk to you even if you charm/dominate them

Quest 'Rigging'

Most of the quests are great, they allow you to use your imagination on how best to complete them. However there are a number that purposely stop you from doing certain things without any explanation. From my own experienc this includes:

-certain NPC's being able to see you no matter whether you sneaking/ 100% chameleoned etc
-certain doors are simply 'you cannot open this door' with no explanation as to why
-no taking shortcuts, as in just because youve worked out where the item is or whodunnit you are unable to complete the quest until you have done all steps their way

I realise a certain amount of this is necessary, especially in the Main quest line, but Ive experienced these in Deadric shrine quests and other lesser quests that make no difference to anything else in the long run.

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ok more to come, i've run out of time for now... so what do you think of the above, do you agree, how do you think they could be improved (realistically) and can you think of any other key issues with the game. oooh, and for what its worth I'm coming up to 180hours of play time so don't sit there thinking I don't love the game or anything

other planned headers : quests that overlap - no continuity / advanced trainer quests / unbalanced enchanting / NPC allys & their insano tactics / merchants / 'The guy i've just been talking to is dead' but i'm not going to panic... / etc

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:18 am

-Your titles and ranks mean nothing.
I suppose what you're talking about the lack of Morrowind's faction-status (spell)merchants? I agree. The shift in disposition is the only thing that you really get in return.

I have a bigger gripe with that though. The level caps in Morrowind for gaining ranks were annoying, I think most will agree. However, now that they're related to how far you've progressed through for instance the Mages Guild, a barbarian can become the arch mage. As long as any non-magic character can complete the Mages Guild quests, there is virtually no stopping them.

Then again, it's all about role-playing though. If you want to play a barbarian Orc, you probably don't want to joing the Mages guild in the first place.

jdougan1 · Post by **jdougan1** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:25 am

[QUOTE=Tricky]-Your titles and ranks mean nothing.
I suppose what you're talking about the lack of Morrowind's faction-status (spell)merchants? I agree. The shift in disposition is the only thing that you really get in return.[/QUOTE]

I love how even though I am Grandmaster of the Mages Guild, I still get the "Oh...you must be the latest addition to the guild..." speech from random battlemages.....

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:22 pm

We've briefly touched on this in another thread, the idea that since NPC's can randomly interact with each other that its possible fights will start out that have nothing to do with you.

Except that, again, it's completely wrong.

If they aren't programmed to say choose a number between 1 and 5, they won't say one of those numbers. So what you're really complaining about isn't the fact that NPCs
"do random things" that lead them into danger, but rather, that appropriate, life-saving choices have not been programmed into them as options.

Which is a definite problem, just as it for assisting NPCs and summons in Neverwinter Nights, and just as it was for summons in Morrowind. It isn't the problem you've labeled it be, though.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:41 pm

Do random things.

I'll admit, those still seem like basic enough AI extensions. Perhaps that's not the problem though, I can see how creating yet another level of AI interaction would make Radiant AI a much, much more complex piece of software. I would expect an exponential increase in required resources for each 'layer' added. And at some point you're going to have to draw a line between what is realistic and what actually has an effect on the way you experience the game anyway.

Heh, I can see how they might start building Radiant AI Processing Units in the near future. Hello Dave.

MordorMan · Post by **MordorMan** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:09 pm

The condensed landscape

Travelling around the map I often can not escape the feeling that i am walking in a park in stead of in a big unexplored land. The game is very rich in content, but in my opinion in was overdone. I would have liked a bigger land without a treasure area every third step. The feeling that the landscape has shrunk is amplified by the ability to see very far. On one hill I could clearly see Kvatch in one direction and Anvil in the other. And I had the feeling it was only a ten minute run between the two cities. Personally, I would like to have a bigger land and more exploring to do. Oh yes, and without the targets on the map and the compass. Those do away with all the sense of achievement of finding places.

jdougan1 · Post by **jdougan1** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:24 pm

[QUOTE=MordorMan]Travelling around the map I often can not escape the feeling that i am walking in a park in stead of in a big unexplored land. The game is very rich in content, but in my opinion in was overdone. I would have liked a bigger land without a treasure area every third step. The feeling that the landscape has shrunk is amplified by the ability to see very far. On one hill I could clearly see Kvatch in one direction and Anvil in the other. And I had the feeling it was only a ten minute run between the two cities. Personally, I would like to have a bigger land and more exploring to do. Oh yes, and without the targets on the map and the compass. Those do away with all the sense of achievement of finding places.[/QUOTE]

The world does seem much smaller than it did in Morrowind precisely for this reason - the park analogy is good. I am not sure if Morrowind was actually any larger in terms of square miles - but it SEEMED so much larger.

Phreddie · Post by **Phreddie** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:31 pm

My main problem: Rain.
This is a problem they had in Morrowind, and I had prayed that they would fix it in OBlivion, but alas my prayers went unanswered. When standing under a roof of some sort outside, while it is raining, the rain acts as though the roof is not there and falls right through it. I have tested out to see if these roofs are just visuals and not actual space, however I have walked, and jumped over all of these things with out actually falling through like rain. Its not a major problem for gameplay, but ti does detract from the overall feeling of the game.

Niteowl3915 · Post by **Niteowl3915** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:46 pm

I too agree that the number of forts and mines and ayleid ruins and bandit camps and goblin playgrounds is excessive. On just one or two trips through the wilderness between Kvatch and Cheydinal I found like 30 different areas!
Another major issue is that after a while it seems pointless to explore any of said dungeons. For me now, there doesn't seem to be any point in clearing out any dungeons, the motivation previously being to power up for the next battle (I just wrapped the main questline).
Granted that this is a difficult issue to resolve, how's about including fewer, larger and more important dungeons? Maybe make every dungeon related to a quest in some way? Picking up a mace in a dungeon east of Anvil that started me on a quest was a fine example.
The main questline itself seems inexcusably short and unimportant. As much as I might want to believe that my actions made a difference to the citizens of Tamriel, the mages guild in Bruma is still on fire, not a body or piece of rubble in Kvatch has moved an inch since I was last there 120 hours ago, and people acknowledge my achievements in one moment, then forget me in the next.
Plus, they used far too few voices for the characters in the game. In more than one instance, I heard the same voice carry on the same conversation (offset by a line or two) in the same place coming from two different characters!

Pillage · Post by **Pillage** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:17 pm

[QUOTE=Niteowl3915]
Another major issue is that after a while it seems pointless to explore any of said dungeons. For me now, there doesn't seem to be any point in clearing out any dungeons, the motivation previously being to power up for the next battle (I just wrapped the main questline).
Granted that this is a difficult issue to resolve, how's about including fewer, larger and more important dungeons? Maybe make every dungeon related to a quest in some way? Picking up a mace in a dungeon east of Anvil that started me on a quest was a fine example.
[/QUOTE]
For me, the whole random loot based on level took out a lot of the fun in dungeon crawling. I liked searching for the pieces of Daedric armor in Morrowind. It gave a sense of accomplishment, but recently,

Spoiler

during a fighters' guild quest

I came across 2 or 3 almost full sets of it, and I'm at level 20! I really miss that aspect of gameplay (though just some random would've been good).

stillodium · Post by **stillodium** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:02 pm

Hmm...well...i'd have to say there are three things that really kill it for me, i'm not going to get into the whole level scaling thing, i do not believe that weak monsters make a great experience, i do however think that individual npc's let's more or less randomly say 30 should be preset as a rule, and i mean very powerfull ones guarding some special, preset artifacts, items, etc.
They are by far the most efficient way of making you actually feel like you've grown in power and they give you something to look forward to. All the excessive scaling and randomness spells monothony for me, i've reached a point when if i see a dungeon i turn the other way, same old ingredients and random (weaker) armor parts. That's 2, the third is the "park" feel, like someone mentioned earlier, it's like an instant battle option, you just go out the gate make 5 steps in any direction and you have arived...or allready passed it.

Everything else just derives from this, i'll just settle for one example, the sneaking, roguish night incursion thingie... what's the point, if by some bug the fifth legion hears your plate boots strolling on theyr marble floor and spot you well... no biggie cause you'r simply gonna have to kill them all. And that is a real shame, nothing compares to the thrill of a low level thief silently making his way through a fortress with preset guardians hoping, just hoping that somewhere in the next 10 reloads he might actually make it in the same room with the artefact/item of his greedy dreams. (Just so it's clear and i don't get peculiar replies, you don't have to, but you could choose to

)

EDIT
Damn...stopping mid reply to eat is evil

...Niteowl and Pillage allready tackled the matter...partially.

mordib · Post by **mordib** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:46 am

[QUOTE=fable]

Except that, again, it's completely wrong.

If they aren't programmed to say choose a number between 1 and 5, they won't say one of those numbers. So what you're really complaining about isn't the fact that NPCs
"do random things" that lead them into danger, but rather, that appropriate, life-saving choices have not been programmed into them as options.
[/QUOTE]

The logical part of my brain knows you are right, but the part that believes my eyes is still refusing to accept it

The deaths caused indirectly by events in the main quest i can appreciate, its the ones where I can see no explanation for them starting that fustrate me. So of course, npcs will be programmed to maybe take a walk if the conditions are right , and wandering creatures/bandits also have set patterns and if those patterns just happen to meet then its just bad luck. oh i dont know

anyhow, the solution to this as I see it would be to build in redundancy, to always have a second npc who through some simple but convincing back story could give you the same info/services if the main person is dead. It still wouldnt totally stop it but it would minimise the problems it causes without removing something i still find somewhat entertaining....

------------------------

in terms of the plethora of dungeons issue people have brought up about there simply being no incentive after a while to clear the things given there are simply sooo many of them, how about this for a possible solution (though admittedly the programmers would probably punch me if I actually seriously suggested it) - same amount of places but over a larger area, more spread out with faction coming and going as the game progresses. What I mean is that over time a particular goblin clan or bandit group or necromancer cell (cell?

) could start to 'take possession' of increasing amount of locations with occasional turf wars (as are already present in one part of the game

).

Now in my eyes this would make it more interesting to do more dungeons and to redo dungeons as you could effectively start campaigns off agains factions you didnt like and so forth.

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Your titles and ranks mean nothing.

so you run the fighters guild, you go to the arena and they treat you like a nobody.... wouldnt it be nice if they recognised your status without it having to actually effect the plot... lines like 'you may be some big shot with the fighters guild but that doesn't mean squat here' would do fine and just add that little extra piece of continuity the game needs. for quests that involve you doing things against your own guild it could be phrased with something like 'well this one's going to test your loyalty...muhahaha!'. All the time it doesnt really change anything, it just makes you feel like you really have earnt your ranks...

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keep it going

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:21 am

It's nitpicking, I know, but I don't like losing my horse when I buy a new one. I paid 5000 for a black horse, lost my Chestnut when I rode the black horse, and not long after a group of ogres killed my horse. Now I'm on foot, and 5000 in the hole.

Which leads me to another gripe. I don't like how a lot of the enemies you meet on the road will target my horse and forget about me. I've actually killed bandits, bears etc without taking a hit because they were ignoring me and taking potshots at my mount. I mean, I'd like to think I was more of a threat than my horse was, and at times it's been really annoying trying to get between an enemy and the horse just to try and keep it alive.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:24 am

I almost forgot, I have one other big issue with one of the features Oblivion offers. So big in fact that I have gather up a few people on the TES forums to correct it. I'm working on it right now, in fact.

If you ever played a beast race and contracted vampirism, you'll know that Bethesda 'forgot' to add additional vampire eyes and teeth. This means that an Argonian vampire character suddenly has homanoid eyes and no fangs. Horrible. As this old fansite shows, that never really was a problem with Morrowind.

Take a look at our little mod:
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... 399373&hl=

It's not finished yet, so if anyone here could possibly offer some assistance..

Niteowl3915 · Post by **Niteowl3915** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:47 pm

The most difficult problem for RPG makers in this type of game is accounting for the multitudinous plethora (I know it's redundant I'm trying to get my point across) of paths that the player could take.
It's a huge issue to tackle and no one has done it right just yet. Then again they could assign a HUGE localization team to it and still not complete it to my (our) overly critical satisfaction.
That being said, nothing ruins immersion more than Raminus Polus speaking of the unfortunate circumstances of our first meeting (associate) after I was already the Arch Mage!

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:56 pm

[QUOTE=Tricky]-Your titles and ranks mean nothing. [/QUOTE]

This was a big annoyance for many people in MW, as well, but clearly Bethsoft's development team didn't rank it very highly in "to do" items. They probably figure someone will mod it in--as indeed, three excellent mods did in MW.

But I find relying on your modding community an inherently lazy philosophy with definite drawbacks. As it is, you become the head of a guild, and get nothing for it. You would expect access to previously restricted locations; a new home (such as the three Houses each provided in MW); equipment or abilities not otherwise available (such as instant portal access to all guilds of the same kind). Why work to the top, if once you get there, nothing changes? Bah.

Niteowl3915 · Post by **Niteowl3915** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:09 pm

That's an excellent point, Fable

Further, I'm not only thinking about Oblivion in regards to the subject of this post. Bethsoft has acquired to rights to a cult classic game that would employ many of the same techniques, Fallout.

I hope that they don't repeat their blunders with Fallout 3. To due so would be to dissatisfy what some would define as rabid fanboys.

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:11 pm

That reminds me of one of the purported original features of Morrowind. As I read it, NPCs would respond to you based on your clothing and equipment etc - my original hopes for this was a sort of 'class' system; you begin off the boat in pauper's clothes, and gradually work your way up to being a high ranking member of society.

Reality is much different, and hasn't changed in Oblivion. Although there have been many improvements, another one of my niggles with NPCs/AI is that everyone seems to have had McDonald's customer care training: very few people are grumpy, or having a bad day or anything less than magnanimous and amiable.

stillodium · Post by **stillodium** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:42 pm

[QUOTE=Niteowl3915]The most difficult problem for RPG makers in this type of game is accounting for the multitudinous plethora (I know it's redundant I'm trying to get my point across) of paths that the player could take.
It's a huge issue to tackle and no one has done it right just yet. Then again they could assign a HUGE localization team to it and still not complete it to my (our) overly critical satisfaction.
That being said, nothing ruins immersion more than Raminus Polus speaking of the unfortunate circumstances of our first meeting (associate) after I was already the Arch Mage![/QUOTE]

Frankly i really don't find that to be a problem, or an excuse for that matter.
Sure it's hard but i for one never demanded or expected that from a game, i merely expect that what is implemented to work, i mean to really work, with feeling.
It also bothers me the fact that bigger and better (common sense for a sequel) has become similarly named and themed. If all this pointless reinvention of game mechanics would cater directly to comunnity input then sure, no problem, but to just redo it for the hell of it, to waste all that time when they could have used only a fraction of it to make the old one excell, to spend all that time on graphics (like a developer stated, to catch the buyers eye...lol...but then that buyer is probably some fps gamer so they dumbed it down for him too), and for what? So they ultimately ship a game that is devoid of consequence, of soul, sure now the npc's go to bed and tend to the vegetable garden but what about theyr story, that's allmost gone, what about spears, enchanting, levitation, necromancy, what about a story to remember. All gone so we can buy a new PC to run it, and i actually understand them, how could they possibly have implemented that and still find the time to design the awesome portable pottery i love so mutch.
Why couldn't they just make the common sense graphical adjustments and instead work on a bewildering variety of tiles, obviously this allso applies to the combat system etc. Really now, if you want to do something else just take a break from the series and do your worst, i'm tired of waiting for these abusive installments.

Hmm...sorry, i do tend to get carried away...and i allso might be offtopic

Well then, to the point of the above discussion i'd mention the unpolished feel of the game. As a repeplayer i can state that an unpolished world is by far the most sadistic way of killing the mood. There are bound to be aspects of the game you don't like but if they'r done well and fit with the scenery, no problem, i have enough imagination to spare on them but moving invisible through a household and being followed by the whole family or being killed at level 40 by 3 rats because they somehow disarmed me and kept knocking me down... that is just !@#$%^ up.

rputran · Post by **rputran** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:41 pm

A relief to be here

Its such a relief to come across a forum where discussions are at a sane level about shortcomings of the game without flaming and endless repetitions. Hope it stays that way so that sensible discussion can take place.

Besides agreeing with a lot of what has been said here so far I would also like to say this. That for all the amazing eye candy (and there is no two ways about it - the eye candy is terrific) somehow it still does not grip you. The atmoshpere is almost sythetic and immersion jsut does not happen. Games with previous gen graphics like Gothic 2 and seriously buggy games like VTM, for all their flaws, still kept you engaged and often guessing. I think Beth focussed so much on the graphics that other things suffered.