Druids don't.crossbow = xbow
everyone has proficiency in them, i think
The same goes for slings ...But in IWD2, darts are much better when used by strong tanks, cuz they have very short range and add STR bonus to damage.
Spellcaster Survivability
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Raven_Song
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Philos
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Ranged Weapons
Understand each person has their own style. so no criticism of other tactics. But bows, crossbows, and slings are the way (IMHO) to keep the non melee types alive. While true that web and entangle get in the way of the meleers they are really are the best way to stay out of trouble in the Goblin Warrens. Everyone in my parties (have 5 different at various stages) uses a ranged weapon of some type, even my melee types (druids can use slings at least and there are some pretty handy bullets available). My mage throws a web or two, the melee types block the front and handle any that make their save and get through the web. The others proceed to perferate those stuck in the web with a hail of bullets, bolts, and arrows. Always better to make the enemy come to you than charging into midst of them.
Understand each person has their own style. so no criticism of other tactics. But bows, crossbows, and slings are the way (IMHO) to keep the non melee types alive. While true that web and entangle get in the way of the meleers they are really are the best way to stay out of trouble in the Goblin Warrens. Everyone in my parties (have 5 different at various stages) uses a ranged weapon of some type, even my melee types (druids can use slings at least and there are some pretty handy bullets available). My mage throws a web or two, the melee types block the front and handle any that make their save and get through the web. The others proceed to perferate those stuck in the web with a hail of bullets, bolts, and arrows. Always better to make the enemy come to you than charging into midst of them.
UNCOMMON VALOR WAS A COMMON VIRTUE
[QUOTE=Raven_Song]The same goes for slings ...[/QUOTE]
Except that Slings are nice long ranged weapons and darts are VERY short ranged weapons.
My experience is that the best time to use darts is by tanks, at close range, when you have the enemy in a "kill zone", i.e. webbed, entangled, held, stunned, hopelessness, etc. Why waste a sling bullet if you happen to have a boatload of great darts and you're already just barely outside of the web, etc.?
I think that darts get a little overlooked because people are so used to thinking of them as mage weapons. But in the hands of a strong tank at close range, darts can be surprisingly deadly weapons.
Except that Slings are nice long ranged weapons and darts are VERY short ranged weapons.
My experience is that the best time to use darts is by tanks, at close range, when you have the enemy in a "kill zone", i.e. webbed, entangled, held, stunned, hopelessness, etc. Why waste a sling bullet if you happen to have a boatload of great darts and you're already just barely outside of the web, etc.?
I think that darts get a little overlooked because people are so used to thinking of them as mage weapons. But in the hands of a strong tank at close range, darts can be surprisingly deadly weapons.
[QUOTE=Philos]Always better to make the enemy come to you than charging into midst of them.[/QUOTE]
This is a key tactic in all IE games, IMHO.
During the time that it takes the enemy to cover the ground between them and you, why waste that time charging into them? Take a few ranged shots at them while they're simply running at you. You get to inflict damage while they're simply covering the distance. And then when they get close, your melee types switch to their melee weapons and the fun really begins.
This is a key tactic in all IE games, IMHO.
During the time that it takes the enemy to cover the ground between them and you, why waste that time charging into them? Take a few ranged shots at them while they're simply running at you. You get to inflict damage while they're simply covering the distance. And then when they get close, your melee types switch to their melee weapons and the fun really begins.
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NeoTiamat
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Heh, I've ignored the forums for a while when I had all the answers to my questions, didn't think I'd have anything resembling the responses...
As an update, I'm now most of the way through the game, just about to enter the Fields of Slaughter. I've pretty much stopped having trouble with mage deaths, since the high con all my casters have has now kicked in, (+45 hp by lvl 15 helps) That, combined with the mass haste I always cast usually solves my problem.
In terms of spells, I personally find that I don't use fireball at all, (for some reason, fire resistance is rare among my guys, whereas cold and acid are the norm). For battle, I mostly use Cone of Cold and Chain Lightning by now.
One thing that I've noticed is that my tanks are responsible for FAR more of my kills, percentage wise, then my casters. One of my tanks, a half-orc barbarian/Fighter has nearly 50% of my kills, and 45% of the exp earned. my two pure wizards are hovering below 15% kills combined...
I suspect this may have something to do with the fact that I installed virtualyl every one of the Ease of Use mods by Weidu, and that i customarily play with max hp (have always, in every game), but it's a bit strange. In some games, Neverwinter in particualr, spellcasters are god. In Icewind it seems to be almost the other way around. Likewise, msot of the spells just don't seem to impress me so much. Fireball has a tendency to make most of my guys half dead if it ever reaches them, whereas with all the Yeti and Whitewolf and Boots of North I have, they hardly feel my Cones of Cold. The insta-death effects don't seem very strong, at least I have yet to have a creature fail their finger of death save.
I dont think I'm liable to multi-class my Sorc into a paladin anytime soon, seeing as he's lawful evil. Wizard to rogue I may do, but knock and a Demarch's invises seem to suffice for my sneaking needs.
Still, the game is certainly interesting, although It starts to wear on towards the end.
As an update, I'm now most of the way through the game, just about to enter the Fields of Slaughter. I've pretty much stopped having trouble with mage deaths, since the high con all my casters have has now kicked in, (+45 hp by lvl 15 helps) That, combined with the mass haste I always cast usually solves my problem.
In terms of spells, I personally find that I don't use fireball at all, (for some reason, fire resistance is rare among my guys, whereas cold and acid are the norm). For battle, I mostly use Cone of Cold and Chain Lightning by now.
One thing that I've noticed is that my tanks are responsible for FAR more of my kills, percentage wise, then my casters. One of my tanks, a half-orc barbarian/Fighter has nearly 50% of my kills, and 45% of the exp earned. my two pure wizards are hovering below 15% kills combined...
I suspect this may have something to do with the fact that I installed virtualyl every one of the Ease of Use mods by Weidu, and that i customarily play with max hp (have always, in every game), but it's a bit strange. In some games, Neverwinter in particualr, spellcasters are god. In Icewind it seems to be almost the other way around. Likewise, msot of the spells just don't seem to impress me so much. Fireball has a tendency to make most of my guys half dead if it ever reaches them, whereas with all the Yeti and Whitewolf and Boots of North I have, they hardly feel my Cones of Cold. The insta-death effects don't seem very strong, at least I have yet to have a creature fail their finger of death save.
I dont think I'm liable to multi-class my Sorc into a paladin anytime soon, seeing as he's lawful evil. Wizard to rogue I may do, but knock and a Demarch's invises seem to suffice for my sneaking needs.
Still, the game is certainly interesting, although It starts to wear on towards the end.
When the Armageddon is upon us and Fenris breaks his chains, then Tiamat shall rise up again and devour all life!
NeoTiamat, I've played many parties without using the really overpowered EoU submods, and I've had my tanks be the primary killers within the party.
I think that the big reason is that my spellcasters, even when they're casting damaging spells, tend to heavily wound the enemies, while my tanks tend to end up getting the killing blows.
I also don't tend to have my spellcasters looking to deliver killing blows, as much as I'm more concerned with delivering general damage to a large number of enemies with area effect attacks or immobilizing masses of enemies with spells like Web or Symbol of Hopelessness, etc.
I don't mind letting my tanks get the kills, since their attacks never wear out, if ya know what I mean.
I think that the big reason is that my spellcasters, even when they're casting damaging spells, tend to heavily wound the enemies, while my tanks tend to end up getting the killing blows.
I also don't tend to have my spellcasters looking to deliver killing blows, as much as I'm more concerned with delivering general damage to a large number of enemies with area effect attacks or immobilizing masses of enemies with spells like Web or Symbol of Hopelessness, etc.
I don't mind letting my tanks get the kills, since their attacks never wear out, if ya know what I mean.
well warriors mstly have a criticial hit which kills a unit instantly
besides mages are supporters and they get enough kills my sorc has 20% of the kills and my tank 35% 
anyway for all people who say give darts&slings to mages because of the strength bonus, ever heard of potions of strenght and spells like strenght of one of bull's strenght?
when i SAy proper bufffing i Really mean proper buffing
besides mages are supporters
and they get enough kills my sorc has 20% of the kills and my tank 35% 
anyway for all people who say give darts&slings to mages because of the strength bonus, ever heard of potions of strenght and spells like strenght of one of bull's strenght?
when i SAy proper bufffing i Really mean proper buffing
I tend to give spellcasters things like crossbows (or bows if they are duelled/multiclassed with thief) as my mage characters tend to have high dexterity so they hit very often with them. Also, I think the crossbows and bows are better, in general, than the majority of slings on offer. As for darts, I dislike them as I keep running out of them without realising - I tend to find a lot more bolts, arrows and bullets and I'm too stingy to buy ammo lol
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Philos
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Regarding Most Kills **minor spoiler**
In regards to tanks doing most of the kills, I think (IMHO) it has more to do with style of play than actual game design. In my newest party, current in the outside of the ice temple, my tanks are doing quite respectible with 22% and 23% of the kills. But the kill leader (and XP killed leader) is none other than my rogue. With a crossbow and her high dex (also took precise shot feat) she rarely misses. Often she drops bad guys before my melee crew even get to them. She has 31% of the kills.
In my very first party, which is right now poised to finish the game, the kill leader for "most" of the game has been my cleric. He too uses a crossbow, but what has put him far above the rest of that party is that he is a cleric of Lathander. Their domain spells are awesome. Especially getting Firestorm as a 6th level "domain" spell. It is normally an 8th level cleric spell but clerics of Lathander get it 4 "character" levels earlier than other clerics. He has flamed droves of the enemy each time he uses it. For example: **spoiler** The fight against the massive hoard of Duergar in their own outpost was over in matter of moments. My tanks blocked the door, my rogue shot one of them with a crossbow causing the whole horde to head for my tanks, when most got within the area, my cleric unloaded a firestorm on them, then got most of the few survivors with a flame strike or two. Of the 20-25 enemy in that fight he killed over 3/4 ths of them. BTW Firestorm (at least the clerical one) "seems" to work on just about every creature including those with magic resistence and that a fireball won't work on. Might be a bug but I just attribute it to "The Divine Power and retribution of Lathander" on evil.
So my tactics developed around creating kill zones for my cleric who has incredible spell power and accordingly is the party kill leader. Someone else might prefer to develop tactics to support the success of meleers and thus spell casters tend to be the ones to "soften" up the opposition for the melee troops to finish off (a great tactic that works well). My point is that we develop a "style" of play that we prefer. Granted that early on, the spell casters will not be the kill leaders but as the game goes on they can definitely be up there (or be the leader in some rare cases).
In regards to tanks doing most of the kills, I think (IMHO) it has more to do with style of play than actual game design. In my newest party, current in the outside of the ice temple, my tanks are doing quite respectible with 22% and 23% of the kills. But the kill leader (and XP killed leader) is none other than my rogue. With a crossbow and her high dex (also took precise shot feat) she rarely misses. Often she drops bad guys before my melee crew even get to them. She has 31% of the kills.
In my very first party, which is right now poised to finish the game, the kill leader for "most" of the game has been my cleric. He too uses a crossbow, but what has put him far above the rest of that party is that he is a cleric of Lathander. Their domain spells are awesome. Especially getting Firestorm as a 6th level "domain" spell. It is normally an 8th level cleric spell but clerics of Lathander get it 4 "character" levels earlier than other clerics. He has flamed droves of the enemy each time he uses it. For example: **spoiler** The fight against the massive hoard of Duergar in their own outpost was over in matter of moments. My tanks blocked the door, my rogue shot one of them with a crossbow causing the whole horde to head for my tanks, when most got within the area, my cleric unloaded a firestorm on them, then got most of the few survivors with a flame strike or two. Of the 20-25 enemy in that fight he killed over 3/4 ths of them. BTW Firestorm (at least the clerical one) "seems" to work on just about every creature including those with magic resistence and that a fireball won't work on. Might be a bug but I just attribute it to "The Divine Power and retribution of Lathander" on evil.
So my tactics developed around creating kill zones for my cleric who has incredible spell power and accordingly is the party kill leader. Someone else might prefer to develop tactics to support the success of meleers and thus spell casters tend to be the ones to "soften" up the opposition for the melee troops to finish off (a great tactic that works well). My point is that we develop a "style" of play that we prefer. Granted that early on, the spell casters will not be the kill leaders but as the game goes on they can definitely be up there (or be the leader in some rare cases).
UNCOMMON VALOR WAS A COMMON VIRTUE
[QUOTE=Da_venom]well warriors mstly have a criticial hit which kills a unit instantly
besides mages are supporters and they get enough kills my sorc has 20% of the kills and my tank 35%
anyway for all people who say give darts&slings to mages because of the strength bonus, ever heard of potions of strenght and spells like strenght of one of bull's strenght?
when i SAy proper bufffing i Really mean proper buffing [/QUOTE]
I have no problem with buffing, but I like giving the right weapons to the right characters based on NO buffs. I don't like thinking in the mode of NEEDING to be buffed to be effective with certain weapons.
The particularly nice thing about heavy crossbows is that they have generally higher to hit bonuses than other similar weapons. And for my mage, I don't mind that it may be limited to a single shot. I'd rather get 1 good hit than 2 misses. And Xbows do more damage.
besides mages are supporters
and they get enough kills my sorc has 20% of the kills and my tank 35% anyway for all people who say give darts&slings to mages because of the strength bonus, ever heard of potions of strenght and spells like strenght of one of bull's strenght?
when i SAy proper bufffing i Really mean proper buffing
[/QUOTE]I have no problem with buffing, but I like giving the right weapons to the right characters based on NO buffs. I don't like thinking in the mode of NEEDING to be buffed to be effective with certain weapons.
The particularly nice thing about heavy crossbows is that they have generally higher to hit bonuses than other similar weapons. And for my mage, I don't mind that it may be limited to a single shot. I'd rather get 1 good hit than 2 misses. And Xbows do more damage.
[QUOTE=mr_sir]I tend to give spellcasters things like crossbows (or bows if they are duelled/multiclassed with thief) as my mage characters tend to have high dexterity so they hit very often with them. Also, I think the crossbows and bows are better, in general, than the majority of slings on offer. As for darts, I dislike them as I keep running out of them without realising - I tend to find a lot more bolts, arrows and bullets and I'm too stingy to buy ammo lol[/QUOTE]
mr_sir, I don't look at darts as weapons that I'd want to specialize in or buy.I look at'em more as weapons of opportunity. If I find good ones, I see no reason to not use'em. I particularly like using them when I've set up a nasty kill zone and my party is actually fairly close to the stunned, webbed, entangled baddies, and using the darts that I haven't had a chance to sell just seems like a nice use of the available resources. And an uber-strong tank can really cause a LOT of damage with darts.
But as you said, you do need to be careful about running out of them and being ready to switch to something else.
mr_sir, I don't look at darts as weapons that I'd want to specialize in or buy.I look at'em more as weapons of opportunity. If I find good ones, I see no reason to not use'em. I particularly like using them when I've set up a nasty kill zone and my party is actually fairly close to the stunned, webbed, entangled baddies, and using the darts that I haven't had a chance to sell just seems like a nice use of the available resources. And an uber-strong tank can really cause a LOT of damage with darts.
But as you said, you do need to be careful about running out of them and being ready to switch to something else.
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Philos
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Matter of Style
Aramant,
Your quote, "I don't understand the problem some people seem to have with Web and Fireball, and similar spells. To avoid getting caught in the effects... just don't be in the area when the spells are cast."
I agree with you I don't have any problem with them. Granted it is easy to catch your own "troops" if you aren't careful. But taking a little time to practice and get used to the spells area of effect before using them usual solves that.
I think it is just a matter of play style. Some like to engage the enemy toe to toe and you obviously can't use those spells and do that very easily. Personally, I enjoy making pincushions of webbed/entangled foes with my missle troops and let my meleers handle the ones that get through. There's usually plenty to go around for all.
Aramant,
Your quote, "I don't understand the problem some people seem to have with Web and Fireball, and similar spells. To avoid getting caught in the effects... just don't be in the area when the spells are cast."
I agree with you I don't have any problem with them. Granted it is easy to catch your own "troops" if you aren't careful. But taking a little time to practice and get used to the spells area of effect before using them usual solves that.
I think it is just a matter of play style. Some like to engage the enemy toe to toe and you obviously can't use those spells and do that very easily. Personally, I enjoy making pincushions of webbed/entangled foes with my missle troops and let my meleers handle the ones that get through. There's usually plenty to go around for all.
UNCOMMON VALOR WAS A COMMON VIRTUE
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Philos
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Why I bother with missles
Quite true Da Venom about Freedom of Movement, especially since you can acquire 2 or 3 Rings that give a character that ability. However the reason I like to use missle missle weapons is that even entangled a melee weapon can still be wielded against someone within melee range. So if you go up to an entangled enemy who is armed with one in order to whack them thay can hit you back. The good thing is that you can surround and take them down 1 by 1 instead of having the whole horde try to surround you and do the same. So I just prefer to not even give them a chance. Just cut them down from a distance, save the healing spells and potions for later.
But just a matter a style as I said. Each method has its own merits.
Quite true Da Venom about Freedom of Movement, especially since you can acquire 2 or 3 Rings that give a character that ability. However the reason I like to use missle missle weapons is that even entangled a melee weapon can still be wielded against someone within melee range. So if you go up to an entangled enemy who is armed with one in order to whack them thay can hit you back. The good thing is that you can surround and take them down 1 by 1 instead of having the whole horde try to surround you and do the same. So I just prefer to not even give them a chance. Just cut them down from a distance, save the healing spells and potions for later.
But just a matter a style as I said. Each method has its own merits.
UNCOMMON VALOR WAS A COMMON VIRTUE
well if my tanks rarely died or needed a potion..
entagle or web.. i prefer web they stand still and can't use abilities..
then in meanwhile I will cast 1-2fireballs with a cloudkill
then another web or entangle, then it's gg for most monsters..
then the strong ones are left..which will be killed by my monk or fighter
and be hit to dead into 2-3 hits
it began pretty boring so i use a new strat now
entagle or web.. i prefer web they stand still and can't use abilities..
then in meanwhile I will cast 1-2fireballs with a cloudkill
then another web or entangle, then it's gg for most monsters..
then the strong ones are left..which will be killed by my monk or fighter
and be hit to dead into 2-3 hits
it began pretty boring so i use a new strat now
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Philos
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I like to use a combo of both
I have my ranger cast entangle and my mage cast web. Makes the bad guys have to save twice to cover the same ground. Web is definitely the better of the two for the reason you mention. At least entangle gives my ranger something to do with his 1st level spells.
I have my ranger cast entangle and my mage cast web. Makes the bad guys have to save twice to cover the same ground. Web is definitely the better of the two for the reason you mention. At least entangle gives my ranger something to do with his 1st level spells.
UNCOMMON VALOR WAS A COMMON VIRTUE