Would you defend yourself against a member of the opposite sex?

DaemonJ · Post by **DaemonJ** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:49 am

[QUOTE=fable]I say it like that because I'd assume I probably did something to deserve being beaten with a pitching wedge,

It would appear that most of us are taking this as simply a serious physical attack by someone of the opposite sex, but we've had one forum member who interpreted defense as physical aggression, and now this.[/QUOTE]
It is indeed interesting that this topic has taken this turn during the discussion.

If most posters will return to the first page, there are stipulations regarding the *exact* nature of the situation that is to be discussed. The topic isn't just about if [opposite sex] hit you would you retaliate. The topic is about if the [opposite sex] had you cornered leaving you with a choice between defending yourself or receiving the attack without retaliation, which would you choose?

Yarr · Post by **Yarr** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:50 am

Of course I would. Scum needs to be treated like scum, no matter what gender.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Wed May 03, 2006 6:47 am

[QUOTE=Yarr]Of course I would. Scum needs to be treated like scum, no matter what gender.[/QUOTE]

Arr! Keelhaul the scum!

(Sorry, saw the username, and the post, and it had to be said.

)

@ Tony, Yeah...the premise of the situation was a random attack where you were cornered and could not flee or get away. A situation in which you were being physically attacked and thought it likely the attack would be fatal, and would you defend yourself, or not?

The thought that you would deserve it as the basis of being attacked is strange. I can only think of maybe 2 times I've been struck in a violent manner in which someone could in any way think I deserved it. Never was it anything beyond one punch and looking like an all out beating. All of the other times were random cruelty and sadism on the part of my attackers.

I should probably edit my first post to include that, just so people don't have to refer to my later post that clarifies it better.

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Wed May 03, 2006 8:12 am

[QUOTE=Yarr]Of course I would. Scum needs to be treated like scum, no matter what gender.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Standing there and just taking punch after punch is just stupid IMHO.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:08 am

[quote="Magrus]Assume the situation is: You are an innocent person on the street"]

I have gone back to the original scenario, as recommended. Does this happen to men?. That is a serious question. I have honestly never heard of such a thing. It must be rare, surely?

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:13 am

[QUOTE=Fiona]I have gone back to the original scenario, as recommended. Does this happen to men?. That is a serious question. I have honestly never heard of such a thing. It must be rare, surely?[/QUOTE]

*shrugs* Does it matter for your reaction? I'm sure it has happened at some point in history more than once. Women have killed men before in cold blood.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:24 am

[QUOTE=Magrus]*shrugs* Does it matter for your reaction? I'm sure it has happened at some point in history more than once. Women have killed men before in cold blood.[/QUOTE]

Yes it does matter. I think people have been talking about different things in this thread and it may be that this is part of the reason. I do not believe men and women are all that different in most ways. But the dangers that you actually face make a difference to your life. This does happen to women. The problem of violence against women by men is real and it is part of everday experience. The problem of violence the other way round also exists, but so far as I can see it is very different indeed in its context.

I do believe in gender equity; I am not optimistic enough to pursue equality. Often I see the cry of equality used to distract from the real issues and I smell bandwagons.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:30 am

[QUOTE=Fiona]Yes it does matter. I think people have been talking about different things in this thread and it may be that this is part of the reason. I do not believe men and women are all that different in most ways. But the dangers that you actually face make a difference to your life. This does happen to women. The problem of violence against women by men is real and it is part of everday experience. The problem of violence the other way round also exists, but so far as I can see it is very different indeed in its context.[/QUOTE]

This is a hypothetical situation presented for a personal opinion, not a study on the reality of how it works in the real world. Granted, what you said is true, and which is why in my initial post I made a point of saying I was more curious about the male reaction of being attacked by a woman because of the fact it is uncommon, and women deal with having to wonder whether they will be attacked in some manner by men in their lives far, far more often than with men.

However, do you have an opinion on said hypothetical situation?

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:33 am

I am sorry, Mag, I do not have an opinion on a situation I do not believe exists in the real world. It is a game I am not interested in playing. There are real issues of violence and this just isn't one of them. It is too simple even for a model

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:40 am

[QUOTE=fable]The thread is set in terms of gender. How different is it, then? The mother is female; the female is the attacker.[/QUOTE]

I think that is over-simplifying the issue. A mother and child is a far different relationship than that of a general man and woman, and hence is a different issue for debate entirely.

I cannot provide a generalised response for an attack by a woman on a random male in the street (following Magrus' scenario) and a husband being beaten by his wife, and a child being beaten by his mother.

[QUOTE=fable]but we've had one forum member who interpreted defense as physical aggression[/QUOTE]

I'll assume you are referring to me? As Fiona pointed out this thread is clouded somewhat by people's different interpretations - namely of situation/context and what constitutes defense. I placed my vote as no based upon the reply given by other males in this thread where it seemed they would use more active defensive tactics, so to speak - I base this assumption on Magrus' explicit description of how he would respond, and others concurred. I have made myself clear that my form of defense would be entirely passive - restraining the female over direct retaliation.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:41 am

[QUOTE=Fiona]I am sorry, Mag, I do not have an opinion on a situation I do not believe exists in the real world. It is a game I am not interested in playing. There are real issues of violence and this just isn't one of them. It is too simple even for a model[/QUOTE]

I made it simple so people wouldn't attempt to squirm out of it and not give a straight answer. However, you're saying there never been an instance in real life of a woman, ever being malicious, cruel and violent towards a man?

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:44 am

[QUOTE=Magrus]I made it simple so people wouldn't attempt to squirm out of it and not give a straight answer. However, you're saying there never been an instance in real life of a woman, ever being malicious, cruel and violent towards a man?

[/QUOTE]

I did not say that. I did not say anything like that, so far as I am aware. As Denethorn says, there are many different scenarios. People do not seem to be responding to the one you outlined because it is frankly incredible.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:55 am

[QUOTE=Fiona]I did not say that. I did not say anything like that, so far as I am aware. As Denethorn says, there are many different scenarios. People do not seem to be responding to the one you outlined because it is frankly incredible.[/QUOTE]

*shrugs* I wanted to see the opinion of people in which they were attacked, and in a situation where they were unable to simply escape. For some reason, most people who have never been in a violent encounter seem to believe there is always a non-violent method out of the situation. While it is true that sometimes you can talk your way out of a violent situation, and sometimes you can run away....sometimes you cannot. I had no wish to recieve commentary regarding the options of

1. Run away.
2. Talk to the aggressor and convince him/her to leave me alone.

In some situations, you are forced into a situation where you lose the option to be peaceful, and I was curious as to the reaction of people in the situation of you being forced into a violent encounter, and whether or not gender would affect your reaction. Realistically, I could care less about whatever circumstancial changes someone would want to place on my listed situation, so long as the main components are still in place, those being:

1. You are being attacked.
2. There is no way to flee.
3. The attacker will not reason with you, or talk about the sitution.
4. The attacker is of the opposite gender of the victim.

I don't care if you view it as you happening to be walking home from work and being attacked on the street, or being invaded by a foreign army and being attacked in your home, or whatever it is that the situation may be in your mind so long as those points are involved.

Regardless of whether it is "incredible" or "unlikely" that a woman would randomly start a violent encounter with a male, I was curious as to the reaction a male would have with it. I honestly don't see it as hard to imagine such a thing happen, or why it is such an "incredible" situation for you. Perhaps it is because of my own, personal situations involving violence in my life I have dealt with however.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed May 03, 2006 12:13 pm

Denethorn wrote:I think that is over-simplifying the issue. A mother and child is a far different relationship than that of a general man and woman, and hence is a different issue for debate entirely.

The idea of a mother attacking a child, just like a wife attacking a husband, is a subset of the set comprising women attacking men. You can specify any number of subsets, but they all belong to the main set. To eliminate completely a mother attacking a child would be tantamount to saying, "I want to get your reaction to being attacked by a member of the opposite sex, unless the scenario involves you as a child being attacked by a parent of the opposite sex." You would have to specify an additional condition to get around its inclusion.

I cannot provide a generalised response for an attack by a woman on a random male in the street (following Magrus' scenario) and a husband being beaten by his wife, and a child being beaten by his mother.

But you did provide a generalized response when you wrote,

Defending yourself does necessitate throwing a punch? So to the guys who've said they defend themselves against a particularly agitated woman, does that mean you'd raise your fist to a woman? I don't think I could ever raise my fist to a woman, unless I was in some kind of drug fueled rage. Just don't see how I could ever manage it.

You seem to imply here that if the defense requires any offense, you couldn't do it. Presumably, though you don't state it, under any circumstances. So would I be correct in assuming that if a woman with a bludgeon attacks you, with obvious martial arts background, that you would "take a brutal attack and stand still," as Magrus puts it?

I'll assume you are referring to me? As Fiona pointed out this thread is clouded somewhat by people's different interpretations - namely of situation/context and what constitutes defense. I placed my vote as no based upon the reply given by other males in this thread where it seemed they would use more active defensive tactics, so to speak - I base this assumption on Magrus' explicit description of how he would respond, and others concurred. I have made myself clear that my form of defense would be entirely passive - restraining the female over direct retaliation.

Yes, but we're not discussing a woman you can restrain in a bearhug. Magrus specified a brutal attack, and presumably that would also involve someone who is skilled. (After all, if they weren't, they could be disarmed, and that would circumvent the purpose of Magrus' question.) So it comes down to someone of the opposite sex who can beat you severely, viciously, and is doing so. You have the choice of taking it, or defending yourself--and this may mean striking out.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Wed May 03, 2006 12:30 pm

[QUOTE=fable]The idea of a mother attacking a child, just like a wife attacking a husband, is a subset of the set comprising women attacking men. You can specify any number of subsets, but they all belong to the main set. To eliminate completely a mother attacking a child would be tantamount to saying, "I want to get your reaction to being attacked by a member of the opposite sex, unless the scenario involves you as a child being attacked by a parent of the opposite sex." You would have to specify an additional condition to get around its inclusion.[/quote]

I don't agree, unless you think there is something different about a mother attacking a female child? It seems to me to be clearly separate

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Wed May 03, 2006 12:41 pm

fable wrote:The idea of a mother attacking a child, just like a wife attacking a husband, is a subset of the set comprising women attacking men. You can specify any number of subsets, but they all belong to the main set. To eliminate completely a mother attacking a child would be tantamount to saying, "I want to get your reaction to being attacked by a member of the opposite sex, unless the scenario involves you as a child being attacked by a parent of the opposite sex. You would have to specify an additional condition to get around its inclusion.

I think that is a fault with the original premise of the thread, rather than my own interpretation. And regardless, based on the subject matter and the majority of the responses of the thread - I still think the inclusion of a mother-child scenario is simplification.

You seem to imply here that if the defense requires any offense, you couldn't do it. Presumably, though you don't state it, under any circumstances. So would I be correct in assuming that if a woman with a bludgeon attacks you, with obvious martial arts background, that you would "take a brutal attack and stand still," as Magrus puts it?

Yes, but we're not discussing a woman you can restrain in a bearhug. Magrus specified a brutal attack, and presumably that would also involve someone who is skilled.

Here you are making a plurality of assumptions. A woman with a kitchen knife could engage in an exceptionally brutal attack, but there is no reason for her to necessarily be skilled, strong or an advanced martial artist. Furthermore, I have not at any point said I would "take a brutal attack and stand still". True my comments were generalisations, but a suitable one within the narrow general context of the thread at the time. Taking the scenario you just put forth regarding a female martial artist with a bludgeon (which I must say, similar to Fiona's comments again, is a hypothetical extreme) I would still follow up with the same response I have provided before - do my best to grab her wrists and otherwise overpower her without bestowing physical damage intentionally. This is very much my own personal response - others have commented on their weakness, I have confidence in my strength. I have weightrained for a number of years, and despite my height of 5'10ish I have considerable body mass. In the past I have pulled apart (well more pushing apart with fists flying above my head) two 6'3" men brawling and restrained one of them on a number of occasions. Similarly I have restrained one of my friends who is easily 16 stone and similarly 6ft 3.

I am saying this to emphasize that I have confidence in my ability to restrain a woman, hence why I can place faith in my reply of a far more passive response than those offered by other males.

EDIT: I would like to furthermore add, that my response in this thread has been very instinctual rather than logical. I have made this equally clear. In threads such as this in which the reality of you reaction in a very intense situation is in question, I go with my instincts and past experiances as I think it is foolish to provide otherwise. In this case of being physically abused by women, I am far more naive than you or Magrus. What I do have to go on is that I have obvserved by mother with red marks round her neck from being strangled by father when she woke him up accidentally and he has a basic reaction from his SAS training; a friend punching one of my ex-girlfriends when she tried to split a fight between him and another friend, and another ex-girlfriend coming home with a blackeye after she'd gone for a walk in the late evening to clear her mind and been punched by some random drunken thug.

The red marks, the cut chin and bleeding gums and the blackeye provoked anger in me like nothing else - and the thought of them still do. It is for this reason I have such an aversion to harming a female.

While they have little to do with the scenario of the thread, they are the experiances I draw upon for my response. My instincts are that women are vulnerable, and should be protected. I have had limited physical abuse from females, but in those cases I was drunk or in a rage myself and probably warranted it. While you have experiance in being abused by your mother, I have experiance in seeing my mother abused. Can you see how this will generate two different instincts?

Greg. · Post by **Greg.** » Wed May 03, 2006 1:01 pm

It seems to me that Mag and Fable are the only ones not being sexist here...

The assumption that a man hitting a woman is wrong is based on the idea that women are weaker than men...

Is this a valid assumption?

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Wed May 03, 2006 1:07 pm

[QUOTE=GregtheSleeper]It seems to me that Mag and Fable are the only ones not being sexist here...
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Denethorn]I do take the view that at a base level a male's duty is protect a woman, as it is a woman's duty to protect a child. Not being sexist to any degree, just talking about basic instincts, which I can certainly recognise within myself.[/QUOTE]

Also handy in clarifying my above post

And is it not also a scientific fact that women are (again generally unfortunately

) genetically weaker in terms of physical strength than men? I think that validates the quote above.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Wed May 03, 2006 1:50 pm

[QUOTE=GregtheSleeper]It seems to me that Mag and Fable are the only ones not being sexist here...

[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by sexist?

Aztaroth · Post by **Aztaroth** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:00 pm

I've thought about this for about a day now...

I have no freaking idea of what I'd do.

The logical thing to do would be to fight back, but I just don't know... I really don't think I *could* fight back... I'm really not a strong person, and I just feel that violence in general is barbaric.

But okay, let's try it. If I was cornered by a woman trying to hurt me, my first reaction would be to run away. But I can't, right? Then I'd try to reason with her. She's dead set on killing me? Aw, damn. The logical thing to do, assuming she's at least as strong as I am (i.e not very) and had no martial arts training or anything like that, I'd try to get in as good a punch as I could and then try to run away, hoping the punch would give me enough time to escape. So, yes, I would fight back. This, however, is me saying what I would do. Now what's wrong with that? I'm sitting confortably in my chair at home. No crazy lady trying to kill me here.

The only fights I've been in have been started by bullies at school... and those were pretty lame, considering. The worst was when one grabbed me in some weird way, forcing me to the ground and pushing my face into the ground while another one kicked me in the ribs for a bit. I got out with only a few bruises. I can take a beating like that, easily. Pain doesn't disturb me much, and my body will heal. But the only time I've ever punched someone with no other thought in my mind than "Nyerrrrhrhhrghhh!!!!!", in other words no thought at all, just action, the guy was thrown back, his front teeth became loose and he bled a lot. Coincidentally, that was the same one who kicked me in the ribs when I took my worst beating.

My point from above is that I really don't think you can know what you'll do in any scenario until you actually experience it. When I punched that guy it was pure reflex. I just snapped. If I'd had time to think I wouldn't have done it.

I really can't say what I'd do.