The primary issues with oblivion - lets discuss...

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:12 pm

@rputran I would agree.

While I definately become immersed in the game, it is not to the same extent as as you say, older generation games. I think the shortfalls in terms of immersion are due to subtle things. There is a lack of realism; this starts the old argument that its a game and whatnot, but this time round its more arcade at the expense of realism. The 'wilderness' for example is so dense with ruins, forts, caves and shrines - so packed as you said its synthetic, and definately reminds me that I'm playing a game designed to provide as rapid and action orientated entertainment as possible (why the need for all those ruins and caves I'll never know

). What I really crave in Oblivion is some rolling planes or moorland, to sit atop my horse and gaze across a vast landscape waiting to be truly explored. Rather than to just bunny hop from cavern to cavern. A minor niggle, but a definate issue I think.

Another immersion cap to me is a more technical flaw - the use of cells for loading. Especially interior and exterior. Oblivion relies very heavily on graphics for immersion, and being within a building and unable to look out onto the bustling town or having huge walls surrounding every town and between each sector or the Imperial City is far to technically clean cut, again synthetically so - I hate to think they purposefully designed the cities in that manner to accomodate the loading system. But as with the Cantons of Vivec I suspect they did.

These are very small issues, and perhaps you disagree that these affect gameplay at all, but I wonder how the game would feel if these issues were solved - interiors 'externalised' and more 'white space' (i.e. just featureless forests) added. You can argue that these issues are present in many other games, the only difference being is as I've said, Oblivion's immersion is very much dependant on visual stimuli and these small letdowns in that area have certainly detracted from my gameplay experiance.

stillodium · Post by **stillodium** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:40 pm

rputran...heh...Vampire the Masquerade, that game is like the epitome of atmosphere, comparing it to oblivion is allmost cruel

(even now that i know the haunted mansion is empty i still shiver when i do the mission, they went well beyond great soundtrack, voice acting and lighting when they did that game, they went straight for the psihological triggers)

Graphics plays like one tenth when building atmosphere or immersion, take Call of Chtulu for example, that game literally wears you down, and it is made by bethesda... go figure, in an rpg on the other hand, especially one so massive as oblivion there is no way you can achieve that by the same means, you nead great characters, those from VTM for example were larger than life, a fine tuned world and decisions with some massive consequences, not to mention a great story...

Put like this it might not seem much but allow me an example. The blades send you as an agent to Leyawiin to investigate some peculiar deaths of high ranking officials (if you are with the dark brotherhood you could be the asassin who stages the "accidents"), as you make some progress you begin to suspect people like the librarian, inn keeper, a guard captain, even the count s adoptive daughter. By the time you realize that the only possible link is theyr argonian blood and grasp the implications the assault on the city allready began. All foreigners salughtered or enslaved and taken into the swamps, the chapel burned...etc. You wait in hiding and collect some basic information the depart for the order with your report, passing the few that survived along the road (if you are argonian you could join the new regime). Imagine the posibilities. Also a war between 2 guilds, say thieves guild and dark brotherhood in witch you would have to chose a side and exterminate the other, asassinate them for sithis or frame, desconspire them for the gray fox.

As a disclaimer i have to say i am not really familiar with argonian lore, if there is mutch of that and i wrote it on the spot without some common sense logical approach. The point is merely that for a game that considers and avertises himself as being epic Oblivion does not even scratch the surface, the only thing epic about it is the voulume, and sadly that has nothing to do with atmosphere or immersion. Apart from the main quest everything else is utterly inconsequencial, no sense of acomplishment whatsoever, and even though some of them manage to deliver some healthy entertainment as soon as you pass to the next you turn a clean slate. Nothing carries over.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:41 pm

Getting back to main issues: quest design is too Nazi for me. When I used to design quests in an MMORPG I worked for, I gave a few hints, and left the rest wide open to the player. I didn't hold their hand and point out with a giant green arrow where they needed to go and whom to speak with, and I didn't direct them at every step of the way what they should do after that. I certainly never led them into an obvious ambush, as happens in one of the miscellaneous Oblivion quests. This is simply bad, overly fussy design, IMO.

mordib · Post by **mordib** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:27 am

Its nearly the weekend again so i will soon progress this a bit further and raise a few more issues and possible solutions

@fable - alas MMORPGs of that nature would probably scare and bemuse the majority of the modern rpg fanbase. I must admit I stopped playing the last one I was involved with because I got stuck in prison and the solution for getting out was far too cryptic for me

Nostalgia aside one reason I feel the green arrows are needed in oblivion is that some of the quest dialogue is misleading (well just badly written but easily interpretted as wrong) and the arrows often help more sense of it. Plus the MMORPGs of yesteryear relied heavily on your imagination meaning there wasnt the same problem of repitiveness that there is in oblivion, hence less need to concentrate on quest threads - exploring could be just as fun if not more

At those looking for immersion, one easy way ive found of creating a more involved atmosphere is hand selecting my own tunes for the different modes, and once again dungeons really are scary to walk around, exploring the countryside really does feel like a kick ass road trip and hanging around town feels...friendly again

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:02 am

[QUOTE=fable] didn't hold their hand and point out with a giant green arrow where they needed to go and whom to speak with, and I didn't direct them at every step of the way what they should do after that.[/QUOTE]

There are mods available that disable the compass (or just some of the arrows or markers), but I wonder how much more difficult it would be to find RAI NPC's. I remember fasttravelling from Cheydinhal to one of the Imperial City's districts to find someone. By the time I got there, said NPC (Baurus I think, MQ related) was already hiking somewhere halfway between the city and Chorrol. I would have never been able to figure that out if it hadn't been for that green arrow.

Oblivion may still be unknown territory as far as certain old game principles go. I admit they often streamline quests a little to fast/easy.. where draw the line though?

jdougan1 · Post by **jdougan1** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:53 am

JUst a quick note about imersion....

I was quite imersed in the game when I started......but unfortunately that imersion has not lasted. Now that I am 100 or so hours into the game, everything is just too much the same - there is just too little variety. I feel like there is very little left for me to experience - even though I have barely started doing the main quest. That first foray into an oblivion gate was really exciting....but as each successive foray proves to be almost identical with the last - well - it proves boring.

Bottom line: I don't think there is enough variety in the game to justify the size of the game. We have a LOT of very similar dungeons - but it seems that once you have seen a few you have seen them all.

I always seem to go back to Morrowind for comparison. The dungeons in Morrowind were quite varied. Yes - there were some basic "types" using similar tile sets - but the variety was astounding. Remember the hugh underground caverns, complete with waterfalls and rock formations? I have seen nothing similar in Oblivion.....

I am still playing, but I am less and less enthused....

rputran · Post by **rputran** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:24 pm

Almost all of the great cRPGs seem to have two things that stand out. They have memorable characters and a few memorable weapons/spells. Think of all the outstanding NPCs in PS:T, BG2, VtM etc (surprisingly Gothic 2 is a little less strong here) and interesting weapons/spells (Lilacor, Crom Faeyr, Fire Rain in G2 etc). Besides the main quest/story line acquiring these weapons/skills or interacting with these characters becomes an aim in itself. Somehow one of the NPCs seem to pack the same kind of punch. Any thoughts on this?

In other RPGs, completion of quests leads to some reward - at least exp points. Since thats not how it works in Oblivion, there is need to motivate persons to do quests by making them interesting. But some (or rather many) of the quests are too simple and dumbed down. And of course the quests messages make it feel even more dumbed down.

When you combine the above you get a game that soon stops grabbing your attention. Very sad. At least thanks to the modding community some of these issues are being addressed. It would be nice if Bethesda comes up with an add-on which increases the challenge level significantly (like NotR did for Gothic 2) and addresses so many of the issues raised in various fora).

stillodium · Post by **stillodium** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:41 am

Very true...regardless of many other attempts i allways seemed to play BG2 with a paladin for that greatsword that only they could wield (i don't remember the name). Heh...the patience and sense of acomplishment, to wear the dragon's defenses down and kill him with the "poor man's finger of death"

Oblivion could really use some nicer rewards, i have 100.000 plus septims and i still get aroung 500 for a thief's guild job (yes i neglected the guilds, i don't fast travel so i only move to another city when i allready have a good number of quests pointing to one...though i begin to see the appeal of fast travel, 80% of a quest seems to be running around)

Then there is the leveling sistem...in many ways i actually like it, it's a refreshing break from the conventional ones but it's way too self sufficient, you can do allmost all your advancement in a inn room. I'm not saying that is the way to go but still they could have made the perks at least quest bound. After all just because you hammer a steel cuirass into shape doesn't mean that at level 50 you suddenly grasp the workings of the spells wowen into them, or they could make them correspond at least, like only be able to repair magical items after you level enchanting (i know it's not in the game but for the sake of the argument)

And...since i have another 5 minutes i'll tackle another thing that's been bothering me. Not at first, but now it's really beginning to take it's toll. The first person thing. It worked great in morrowind and it still does now for exploring, but the fighting part is just lifeless, sure it works great in a fps because you only aim and shoot with a rifle, but swordfighting?... where's all the fun. Since everything one on one is over in seconds i'll only mention the ones with multiple enemyes. If you play a knight and block with the daedric shield most of the times the only thing it blocks is your view ( i could understand a need for realism but not at that cost, they might as well cover 70% of your view when you put on your helmet), as for the "power atacks", unfortunately they're only "usefull" when you don't need them. The warrior type is totally devoid of crowd control feats. A wizard needs odd skills like blocking, the spells look shockingly bad, it might seem like a rash statement, but look at the overall graphics quality and then compare it to the awkward ombilical cord that sometimes appears. The spells are also devoid of magnitude, not even some basic thundering in the sky and a lightning coming down on the infidels. Sure with cameleon and stun you can kill dozens but that isn't exactly thrilling. You have no sense of power, of being so to speak "supreme", it all comes so fast and easy that the journey is meaningless, and after you do get to the top you have nothing to show for. Imagine meeting 3 bandits on a road, as they attack, you invoke some esoteric powers and a daedra lord's hand rips through reality and takes one's soul to oblivion. The other 2 scream histerically and make a run for it mumbling something like "By the Nine! The Cookie Jar!" (couldn't help the hand analogy

...anyway some legendary spell found throughout tamrielic lore). On the other hand if they do not flee you have to fight them with the mana depleated, it's not really hard to balance things. It's just way too easy to be god like in this game, and way too hard to feel like it.

Hmm...reading my posts here you might think i really don't like the game and just enjoy picking on it. Actually for all it's flaws it's the best one in a long time, it's just that kind of thread

mordib · Post by **mordib** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:03 pm

all interesting stuff so far

now for some more :

quests that overlap - no continuity

this isnt really a major one but it is has started to bug me now ive completed more of the game. Basically this is the fact that the various guild quests are completely independant of the main quests and other quests. i dont mean you should need to have completed certain in one thread to be able to do one in another thread, just that in places where the subject or people cross over they should be interelated.

i have noted a number of occasions now where given previous things ive done and ranks ive achieved the current quest makes no sense at all - like stealing stuff from ppeople that no loger exist or from places i now own.

unbalanced enchanting

considering there arent actually many enchanting options it seems ludicrous that some enchanting options are so overpowered and some so underpowered. in terms of underpowered enchanting adventuring powers like detect life and feather have their limits set ludicrously low even with a grand sould gem when even lesser found magic items have 5+ times the power. at the other end theres stuff like chameleon, which means once you gain access from enchanting you are 5 grand soul gems away from achieving untouchable status.

i really don't know what to suggest about this without sounding dumb, i mean the answer is surely just give sensible options for some of the enchanting powers. I honestly cant figure out how it was got so wrong in the first place.

NPC allys & their insano tactics

this is one of my biggest annoyances, since you can essentially collect followers and have many missions where you are escorting or fighting with NPC it seems crazy that your options are, if you are lucky limited to 'wait here' and 'follow me'.

and thats before you see their crazy assed tactics, if the npcs are fighters then they just charge into every fight seemingly alerting every monster in the place. they attack whoever you are attacking and make every attempt to get in front of you when you are both hacking away. they dont retreat when theyre getting heavily battered, and will make no sensible decisions about which enemy to attack based on what they are using to attack.

i just wish there were at least simple options like in the later NWN modules or something

merchants

There are plenty of rich people in cyrodill. there are people that collect rare artefacts and ingredients and theres plenty of rare loot to be found.

So why are there no merchants that deal with more exotic items. I realise after a while you dont really need money anyway but for basic realism purposes surely there would be at least one or two merchants around who would only buy really expensive rare stuff with no real money limit. perhaps theyd only buy things a few times a month, perhaps they wouldnt even talk to you without enough fame, perhaps theyd only pay you the big bucks for full sets... whatever but it seems a crazy omission from such a full rich land.

mordib · Post by **mordib** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:14 pm

in fact , in concern to merchants how about this as a mod -

a guy living in a lil cottage somewhere in the middle of nowhere. wont even talk to you before you have say 50 fame. when you meet that requirement he will introduce himself as a collector of rare stuff. he gives you a series of missions, a shopping list if you like, stuff like a complete set of daedric armour, 5 named magic arrows etc etc for which he pays something like 10k a mission for. once you have completed his shopping list he will finally trust you enough to let him use you as a shop, with a10k limit but only buys rarer stuff.

howd that sounds?

Virus · Post by **Virus** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:11 am

IMO I don't think we can compare Oblivion with any MMORPG (I think it was mentioned before) because then we compare computer AI and human imagination respectively.
It's true that markers etc really give a ''oneway'' aspect to the game like God himself is guiding you to find the person ''x'' without letting you decide or imagine where he can possibly be, according to his habits/profession. But then again... if that was the case, imagine the bugs we would encounter, as if the already existing ones were not enough.
Truth be told, some quests are quite nice especially the main one (even if I just ''touched'' the very first part of it) but I think the basic idea that serves the Oblivion universe is to explore randomly the world provided to you and not abide by the quests given to you. Quests here are just to give the rpg-ish atmosphere and to see the credits in the end...

About the leveling system, even though I am an immense fan of D&D series, I found it quite interesting if not just different, and quite easy to grasp if you are not familiar with it (I have not played MW

). However, apart from the
''easy-to-grasp'' part of it, it is rather fast. I mean what is the meaning of having 300+ places to find and you get your maximum level at the first 100?
They could at least extend the maximum skill cap from 100 to 200 or more, so
the levels could progress even further and have the thrill of getting even better. Or they could make the skill progress slower so the amount of time needed to get to a ''x'' level would be double or triple or whatever.
For example: yesterday I found the ub3r way to get 7 lvls in 15 minutes just by pressing the ''f'' button (cast spell button) I am knight and I have the illusion skill as a major one and I have a nice little spell called ''light'' which uses up around 20 or so magicka and it is from the illusion school. So imagine the rest....
Now I am 35 lvl and I am playing a regular FPS game rather than a RPG.

I just hope Oblivion is a test to make something better from the gameplay aspect of it and not the visual, as it is exceptionally good, such outdoor graphics I had to see from Farcry...

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:37 am

I sometimes wonder, if they went through such great lengths to make sure all the items and creatures are levelled to you own level, what is the point of levelling up? It's as though I'm playing Deus Ex.
I'm not sure what game developer said this, but one important facter aside from the PC's skill is the (real) player's ability. Raw ability that can make a seasoned low-level player defeat a high level obstacle. Like Oblivion lockpicking for example, I don't even use security in my characters anymore.

What I'm trying to say is that Bethesda went through great lengths to perfectly balance this game. The unbalancing factor? The player's ability. It's as though they built a game and forgot that people are actually going to play it.

mikesouth · Post by **mikesouth** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:05 pm

The biggest problem I see is that they modified the game to make it work better with the XBOX and others and in doing so they took out things...like spell making, enchanting, levitation and regeneration, active weapon swapping....to name a few

it happened in might and magic as well...what they are forgetting is that if something aint broke you dont fix it...instead of cutting back functionality and thus "dumbing down" the game they should be leaving things alone and adding functionality...I dont want more mindless quests at the expense of things that made the game enjoyable. If I steal a soul gem worth 80K and sell it I want to be able to buy all the training I want.

which brings me to the training limitation issue....bad idea training is training.

what they did apparently (so far) fix was the merchant not having enough money to buy expensive items so you had to fudge it...the better fix is simply to say come back tomorrow and pick up your payment or I cant get enough money to buy that.

Im not going to nit pick on stuff like rain coming through roofs...I could care about that what I do care about is having to relearn to control a character I should already know how to control.

And I HATE having a good game dumbed down so they can get it to play on an xbox

Niteowl3915 · Post by **Niteowl3915** » Sat May 06, 2006 3:49 am

Dude what are you talking about?
There would be no reason to dumbdown a game for the Xbox, especially now considering that the 360's processing power rivals high ends pcs.
The primary motive for dumbing down pc games for consoles (other than processing power) is to make the control workable, but as a 360 owner I can say that the control was more than adequate. True, there aren't nearly 100 keys on an 360 controller, but it's not neccesary. The controller was if anything under utilized.
Spellmaking and enchanting are both here, and if we agree what active weapon swapping means, the 360 version allows for 9 quickly accessable (on the dpad) spells or weapons.
I can't comment on regeneration (I never played Morrowind) but levitation is out, as many have complained, but linking that to a 360 version (and only 360 btw, not others) is not logically sound, on basis of the above-given justification.

All that being said, I agree and disagree about the training. True it's the epitome of annoying to complete some "go there get this" for a master trainer, only to find they won't train you because you've "exceeded the training limit for your current skill level", but on the other hand, being able to buy your way to skill mastery takes the point out of having that mastery to being with.

To touch on an earlier point, I agree that the human variable was under accounted for. IMO much more weight sould be given to the actual skill of the player; too few things in the game are like lockpicking.

And yes, npcs fighting are like hungry hungry hippos, whatever they can hit without any regard for ANY kind of strategy. Hey, in real life you can shout out "come back retard you can't fight them alone!"

mikesouth · Post by **mikesouth** » Sat May 06, 2006 4:05 am

actually the xbox is exactly the reason that levitate and other things are out, it only has so much available memory, so much processing power etc etc...

so they had to dumb down stuff...happens all the time

and yes spell making and enchanting are there but they arent there the same way they were in the first 3 where they were skills you developed as needed...grand soul gems were much more difficult to get and in particular fill with grand souls.

scaling the characters to the player is retarded as well...as has been noted here.

Like I said if it aint broke dont fix it...they sacrificed strategy to get the game on gaming consoles...and the result is an experience that just flat out isnt as enjoyable in my opinion...YMMV

Pillage · Post by **Pillage** » Sat May 06, 2006 8:09 am

I can definately see why they 'fixed' a lot of the stuff they did. And some of it was broken. I took the whole training limit to be their answer to the train to 100 with 100 gold exploit in Morrowind. They could've worked it better into the game, though. Something like "I can't teach you everything, you need to go out and get some experience, then I can teach you more!"
Meh, it's a good game, though.

Niteowl3915 · Post by **Niteowl3915** » Sat May 06, 2006 3:21 pm

no, you see you ignored my post.
Oblivion is only out on the 360 and PC, not any other consoles, and as I said, the 360 as a gaming platform is more powerfull than probably 80% of the systems out there.
I agree that that has happened, in the past. But now with the console technology catching up and in many cases surpassing PC's that is no longer neccesary.
Again, it's illogical to blame the removal of things on releasing the game to a system that's just as powerful.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat May 06, 2006 5:09 pm

I agree that that has happened, in the past. But now with the console technology catching up and in many cases surpassing PC's that is no longer neccesary.

Do consoles manage read/write hard drives? Do they have 1 GB RAM? Do they run at 3 gHz or more? Can you type on consoles? Can you edit your game files on an xbox? Where are all those Bethsoft user mods on the 360? Can you contact the Web, send email, listen to web radio and watch web tv, view movies on the Web, edit articles, multitask, and simultaneously run several games on the 360? Can you copy CDs or DVDs on the xbox, or even listen to/watch them? Which technologies are we referring to that are superior to those of the PC?

Bethsoft, fortunately, is an equal opportunity platform employer. I've been seeing complaints about the clunkiness with which the visuals run on both the xbox and PC.

stillodium · Post by **stillodium** » Sat May 06, 2006 8:08 pm

Unfortunately the "dumbing down" it's hardly related to hardware, it's a mater of target audience, console users are much younger and prefer theyr games to be more arcade. It's as simple as that. A hard core rpg full of story, character development, many harsh rules and tough decisions is not what interests them.
And in a time when every other day you see some article wondering if PC CRPG's are dying or are allready dead that's what you get. Games "tweaked" untill the companies can sleep assured that they're gonna make that profit in the end.

Invincible121 · Post by **Invincible121** » Sat May 06, 2006 8:34 pm

actually the xbox is exactly the reason that levitate and other things are out, it only has so much available memory, so much processing power etc etc...

Levitate was taken out because the game was built different than Morrowind. They use cell blocks or something now, which means buildings don't look the same from above that they do from the ground. So if you were levitating over the Imperial City you'd see only a rough wheel shape set of buildings with spire sticking out, not each individual district with buildings and npcs walking around.

Still, I miss the power. Levitating onto a big mushroom tree and throwing fireballs onto Golden Saints was fun.

My major complaint is the lack of character that the character's have. Npc and your custom character. Everyone is the same. Each character could easily be replaced by another and nothing would change. Teekeus in the Chorrol mage's guild could easily have his personality replaced by that of an inn keeper or generic soldier type and it wouldn't effect the game at all. I never get the impression, except with one fighter's guild quest regarding rats, that the npc was genuinely involved or cared about what they were getting me to do for them.