The primary issues with oblivion - lets discuss...

[mikesouth]

[QUOTE=Invincible121]Levitate was taken out because the game was built different than Morrowind. They use cell blocks or something now, which means buildings don't look the same from above that they do from the ground. So if you were levitating over the Imperial City you'd see only a rough wheel shape set of buildings with spire sticking out, not each individual district with buildings and npcs walking around.

[/QUOTE]


yup and why do you think they went to something new?
why do you think there are no flying enemies save for the imps which you will note never fly out of reach.

I played oblivion then I replayed morrowind...despite its faults Morrowind is a much richer environment.

Oblivion...well...sucks by comparison.

IMHO YMMV

[Niteowl3915]

Says Fable:
Do consoles manage read/write hard drives? Do they have 1 GB RAM? Do they run at 3 gHz or more? Can you type on consoles? Can you edit your game files on an xbox? Where are all those Bethsoft user mods on the 360? Can you contact the Web, send email, listen to web radio and watch web tv, view movies on the Web, edit articles, multitask, and simultaneously run several games on the 360? Can you copy CDs or DVDs on the xbox, or even listen to/watch them? Which technologies are we referring to that are superior to those of the PC?

To compare RAM size and clock speed directly is inappropriate. One must take into account that a console does not run an OS, or anything in the background. Yes, with a usb keyboard you can type on the 360, but making that comparison is like asking "can one use thumbsticks on a computer?", again not an appropriate standard of comparison. The current and new generation rountinely contact the web, with XBL and the Sony online equivalent. Granted one can't send email, but that's not a analogous comparison. On XBL one can send friend requests, voice and soon video chat and send text messages. Further, one can guide another user through a tour of one's own photos while narrarating them, let's see a pc do that.
True, one can't watch web tv or listen to web radio, but one can download demos of upcoming games and trailers of upcoming movies on the 360.
The 360 has a "guide" that can be accessed at anytime from any game that allows a user to listen to music, either ripped to the local hard drive from a cd, or streamed from a networked computer. We've been able to listen to music and watch dvd's since at least 2001 on a console.
The XBL Arcade allows users to download games directly to the hard drive and play them independantly of whatever game or DVD is in the tray at the time.
I'll concede that the 360 is currently barren to user created content, but user created content is one of the promises Microsoft used to sell the system, so it'll be there. Further, once implemented, one could create say a plane skin for an air combat game or a character skin for an adventure game then sell it for maybe 25 cents a pop on the XBL marketplace. To my knowledge, offering a user the option to make money in this way is something rather novel.
Not to mention the 360 being home to the most advanced visual effects generator that accompanies music (not appropriately called a visualization because it's interactive) in the world.

Ironically enough, when I said that console technology is catching up to and surpassing pc's, I was reffering only to processing power, to which I stand by my point that my 360 can better run games than say, 80% of the pc's accessing this board.
Again, to directly compare the pc and a console is erroneous. A console is built for a different target audience, one who doesn't want to say, edit articles on the internet, but rather one who only wants to play video games, alone and online with other folks who want only to play video games.

Stillodium brings up a good point, that console gamers are a different breed. This is very true, but unlikely to affect a game that already has a dedicated fanbase. Games like Oblivion won't appeal to everyone, and Bethsoft knows that, what's more likely, that they'll screw with their game to make it fit console gamers' expectations, or keep the pc formula intact and sell fewer titles on a platform that they weren't focusing on to begin with?

Besides why would you want to run multiple games at the same time?

[stillodium]

[QUOTE=Niteowl3915]

Stillodium brings up a good point, that console gamers are a different breed. This is very true, but unlikely to affect a game that already has a dedicated fanbase. Games like Oblivion won't appeal to everyone, and Bethsoft knows that, what's more likely, that they'll screw with their game to make it fit console gamers' expectations, or keep the pc formula intact and sell fewer titles on a platform that they weren't focusing on to begin with?
[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately that is not a question anymore. It has allready been done.
And sadly it worked too... so more to come.

[fable]

Ironically enough, when I said that console technology is catching up to and surpassing pc's, I was reffering only to processing power, to which I stand by my point that my 360 can better run games than say, 80% of the pc's accessing this board.

That's quite a figure. Where did you get it? As for actual processing power, I've seen no factual statements that show this is greater for the Xbox user than on a PC. And the point isn't that the Xbox is faster than X% of PCs, but that you can upgrade even a very slow PC to be faster than the Xbox for very little cash--and do a lot more with the result. Can you upgrade an Xbox to be faster, or do you have to buy a newer Xbox? It would appear the PC has the technological edge.

For the rest, I've been seeing complaints about how Oblivion runs on the PC *and* the Xbox: plenty of them, right in the official forums. Nice thing about the PC version is, you can change not just options within the game, but a host of INI settings outside it that let you control far more. That's not available in the Xbox.

Again, to directly compare the pc and a console is erroneous. A console is built for a different target audience, one who doesn't want to say, edit articles on the internet, but rather one who only wants to play video games, alone and online with other folks who want only to play video games.

I think you mean, "A console is built for an audience that has been told they want to do nothing else with it, don't care about articles on the net, don't want to multitask, or upgrade, or run game emulators, or do any of the many things that make a PC a far better overall investment." What I mean by this is Microsoft has poured an enormous budget into convincing people they really don't want anything else in exchange for a large purchase price, for some time. It follows a standard marketing pattern in that business: convince people that you're selling them what they need, when they don't need it, and they'll buy it. But trying to convince me that it makes sense to get far less machine for the buck hasn't worked thus far.

This also brings up one major selling point of the PC version of Oblivion over the Xbox: player mods. I don't think Bethsoft figured on spawning the huge mod market they now have when they first released Morrowind. But I think doing so (to return to our main theme, here) has led to their being sloppy. Problematic as Morrowind was in some respects, it's my opinion that game balance is seriously out of sync in Oblivion. It's as though Bethsoft has left this, as well as a mutitude of features that players have requested, to modders. Arguably a visual stunner and more attractive than Morrowind, Oblivion seems to me a less finished product.

And while on the subject of primary Oblivion issues, let's not neglect marketing. Bethsoft is charging for tiny mods? Okay; I can live with that. But Bethsoft also expects you to test their beta patch for free. And people are lining up to act like idiots and do it. It rather reminds me of a quip by the late Spike Milligan, in which he defined the 19th century American vs Native American economic experience as knocking out the teeth of the latter then charging them for false ones.

[Denethorn]

[QUOTE=mikesouth]actually the xbox is exactly the reason that levitate and other things are out, it only has so much available memory, so much processing power etc etc...[/QUOTE]

I'm with Niteowl here, and disagree with this. While I am not an Xbox-er, I am aware that is a very advanced piece of kit, atleast in comparison to the vast majority of PCs sitting on desks at the moment. Read Niteowl's posts for the details

As has been said, the Xbox is responsible for the dumbing down of content, and reduction in depth but it cannot be attributed to any technological changes. If anything, the PC market is more to blame for that. I've heard many, many comments that the only way at the moment to play Oblivion at full, beautiful graphical quality is by buying an Xbox 360. Maybe an exaggeration, but nevertheless, I know there are many bottlenecks in even the topline PCs at the moment which prevent absolute top quality.

Specifically, the removal of levitation is nothing to do with technical issues. It is to do with balancing issues and level design. Bethsoft had to hack away at some of the most freeform elements so they could return to basic level design principles. The Siege of Kvatch would have been much shorter if you could have levitated over the gates straight to the main keep etc. Thats just one example.

[mordib]

someones already said it in this thread (but now ironically i cannot spot it), the whole levitation thing is simply a limitation of the way objects are displayed, turning on noclip (if you are a pc user ) and flying about a bit should make it clear very quickly why levitation is not possible in this game.

anyhoooooo, ive got another one thats been bugging me since i completed the main quest and am now clearing out the many many places on the map I havent yet visited..

it must have been the wind!!

when you commit an attack from sneak and the enemy still dont see you they go on battle alert for about 3 seconds before putting away their weapons and making some silly comment about it being their imagination.... that theyve just lost over half their health and their blood is pslattered against the wall...... Given certain bad guys have tactics such as magic users casting then legging it I dont see why it wasnt easily possible for the creaters to get enemies to react when they are hit by an unseen enemy, be it searching around or running away or even just finding themselves a good position where their range of view is the most and protection is good and stay there for a while...

[UncleScratchy]

Near racial attribute equality

Probably my biggest issue with both MW and Obliv has been in the near racial equality in attributes. For me its just wrong that a Wood Elf can be just as powerful as an Ogre. I wish the developers had used some scheme similar to Baldur Gate characters to differentiate the races. An ogre should be able to reach a "normal" (non-magically enhanced) strength cap higher than 100 - maybe 120. A Wood Elf should max out perhaps around 80. Then any magical enhancements/blessings, etc. would add/subtract from that cap. Same for other races and attributes. They attempt this with racial bonuses and perks but its just not the same, especially when many of those perks to an attribute or skill become meaningless once a character has maxed out that particular attribute/skill. I believe I'm correct in this, but having, for example, a plus 10 racial/birth sign bonus to sneaking disappears once the character reaches 100 points in that skill. He doesn't maintain the bonus for a "normal" skill level of 110 (the blue level number). Does this bother anyone else?

[LiftedNevermore]

My main gripe with the game, and I apologise if this has already been mentioned, is the hotkey system. The average mage needs more than nine spells on hand at a time, and it really stops the action when you have to access menus mid-battle to select the right spell. It's also irritating that you're just supposed to remember these nine hotkeys off the top of your head.

I guess I was too used to the system in World of Warcraft, where you can have about 25 spells on screen, just waiting to be clicked.

[Abuse]

[QUOTE=LiftedNevermore]My main gripe with the game, and I apologise if this has already been mentioned, is the hotkey system. The average mage needs more than nine spells on hand at a time, and it really stops the action when you have to access menus mid-battle to select the right spell. It's also irritating that you're just supposed to remember these nine hotkeys off the top of your head.

I guess I was too used to the system in World of Warcraft, where you can have about 25 spells on screen, just waiting to be clicked.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, and the problem gets worse when you are a battle mage =(

Anyone know of any mods that rework the hotkey system?

[fable]

My main gripe with the game, and I apologise if this has already been mentioned...

No apologies necessary. As long as you have something to say about perceived problems more than a sentence or so in length, feel free to contribute. A certain amount of repetition is understandable in this topic, given its nature, but we all have our different take on what are the serious issues in Oblivion.

...is the hotkey system. The average mage needs more than nine spells on hand at a time, and it really stops the action when you have to access menus mid-battle to select the right spell. It's also irritating that you're just supposed to remember these nine hotkeys off the top of your head.

This has also been repeatedly criticized in the ES modders' forum. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anyway to multiply your hotkeys, though someone did post a way to rewrite the code for some other activities into hotkeyed choices. Thing is, it left you wanting, in other respects.

EDIT: Heh, answered you, Abuse, before seeing your post.

[Denethorn]

I do believe there is a very heavy ini tweak out there (or some kind of manual file hack) that enables you to assign more hotkeys. It involves logging last pressed key for a hexadecimal code and so on. Allows you to assign hotkeys of numpad, insert, home etc. I expect its very rigid in its functions however. If I find it again I'll post it.

[fable]

[QUOTE=Denethorn]I do believe there is a very heavy ini tweak out there (or some kind of manual file hack) that enables you to assign more hotkeys. It involves logging last pressed key for a hexadecimal code and so on. Allows you to assign hotkeys of numpad, insert, home etc. I expect its very rigid in its functions however. If I find it again I'll post it.[/QUOTE]

I think you mean this thread.

[Niteowl3915]

I apologize if it seems like I'm beating a dead horse, but I feel that my points have fallen on deaf ears

Originally posted by Fable
That's quite a figure. Where did you get it? As for actual processing power, I've seen no factual statements that show this is greater for the Xbox user than on a PC. And the point isn't that the Xbox is faster than X% of PCs, but that you can upgrade even a very slow PC to be faster than the Xbox for very little cash--and do a lot more with the result. Can you upgrade an Xbox to be faster, or do you have to buy a newer Xbox? It would appear the PC has the technological edge.

Since when can you upgrade a very slow computer to be faster than a 360?
The 360 has three symmetrical cores running at 3.2 ghz each [url="http://www.thunderboltgames.com/features/viewfeature.php?fid=96"]http://www.thunderboltgames.com/features/viewfeature.php?fid=96[/url] has the rest of the specs which, even to those with limited tech experience, like myself, are quite impressive.
The Xbox 360 costs 400 dollars. Last time I checked there are high end graphics cards running that much. True, it cannot be upgraded (that's excluding the planned HD DVD add on), but it won't need to be upgraded for a good while. The upgrade to a newer systems isn't as organic as with a pc, there are generations of console technology, the 360 being the first of the current generation.
When shopping for a gaming platform, I would rather put 400 dollars down for a sure thing, than pay 1500 for a high end pc to replace my own pc.
You see it has never been my position that a 360 is to replace the computer, but to compliment it. Obviously I have some faith in pc's (using one to write this post), but I don't have the money to constantly upgrade my system to play the game I want to. With a 360, I'm guaranteed that the game I buy for it will run exactly the same way every other user's game will run, a big concern when thinking about online games.

For the rest, I've been seeing complaints about how Oblivion runs on the PC *and* the Xbox: plenty of them, right in the official forums. Nice thing about the PC version is, you can change not just options within the game, but a host of INI settings outside it that let you control far more. That's not available in the Xbox.

Of course there are complaints, but us console owners can find solace in the fact that there no INI settings to fiddle with, being that the game is already correctly comfigured and optimized for my platform, since every 360 is exactly the same piece of hardware.

I think you mean, "A console is built for an audience that has been told they want to do nothing else with it, don't care about articles on the net, don't want to multitask, or upgrade, or run game emulators, or do any of the many things that make a PC a far better overall investment." What I mean by this is Microsoft has poured an enormous budget into convincing people they really don't want anything else in exchange for a large purchase price, for some time. It follows a standard marketing pattern in that business: convince people that you're selling them what they need, when they don't need it, and they'll buy it. But trying to convince me that it makes sense to get far less machine for the buck hasn't worked thus far.

No sir, I said what I meant. If you had actually paid attention to the marketing campaigns of any video game console, you'd find that no console marketing deptartment in history has ever attempted to make their product seem superior to a pc. Console game ad focus on, not surprisingly, playing video games! They are not out to replace the pc's non gaming functions, never have, never will be.
Let me summarize, Microsoft has not spend one red cent on trying to convince people they don't want anything more than they are getting with the 360.
I would check my own facts before accusing anyone else of fabricating his/hers.
Besides, simple logic would say that since Microsoft has a veritable monopoly on the pc OS market, they would want to sell you both a pc and a 360
I must re-emphasize, the purchase price is not large, not in comparison to what you'd pay for the same power in a pc!
You are not getting far less machine for the buck. I bought my pc three years ago, and because of my Xbox and 360 I won't need to spend another dime on it. My pc can't handle Oblivion, but it's plenty powerfull to run any word processor I want, to surf the web as I please, to run any game emulator or multitask to my heart's content.
Instead of buying a better graphics card however, I invest my money in a platform designed specifically for gaming, which works perfectly for me.

Again, I apologize for bringing this back up, especially considering that it's off topic, but I feel it had to be said.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

[QUOTE=Tricky]If you ever played a beast race and contracted vampirism, you'll know that Bethesda 'forgot' to add additional vampire eyes and teeth. This means that an Argonian vampire character suddenly has homanoid eyes and no fangs. Horrible. As [url="http://hosted.planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/ral-jiktar/argonian_vampires.htm"]this[/url] old fansite shows, that never really was a problem with Morrowind.
[/QUOTE]

That might be true (I wouldn't know), but it is also more accurate. Argonians are herbivores. You know this because they don't have binocular vision. They have one eye on each side of their face, like a chicken. If an Argonian becomes a vampire, it becomes a predator. Predators have binocular vision. This is obvious in all of nature. A chicken has one eye on each side of its head. A hawk has both eyes in front. It has nothing to do with the fact that they're birds, it has to do with their requirement for A) a wide field of vision, or B) depth perception. Prey and Predator.

The weak spot here is "no fangs". Predators always have canines of some kind. That was a mistake, but a forgivable one. It would be unreasonable to expect Bethesda to hire a biologist to make sure they get the species-traits correct.

It's fantasy. Nit-picking is pointless. You can go back to the very first episode of Star-Trek and nit-pick it to death on its logical inconsistencies, but Gene Roddenberry wasn't a physicist. He was a writer. You have to be able to forgive the fact that an inertial damper will prevent everybody from becoming an oil stain on the aft bulkhead when going to warp speed, while a Romulan Disruptor can throw somebody across the bridge deck. Its called "suspension of disbelief".

[yrthwyndandfyre]

[QUOTE=Tricky]What I'm trying to say is that Bethesda went through great lengths to perfectly balance this game. The unbalancing factor? The player's ability. It's as though they built a game and forgot that people are actually going to play it.[/QUOTE]
No, the biggest issue is that they listened to their customers. The people who were perfectly satisfied with Morrowind said nothing, and I am guilty of this. The ones who found it too hard complained. They attempted to address the complaints.

[stillodium]

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]No, the biggest issue is that they listened to their customers. The people who were perfectly satisfied with Morrowind said nothing, and I am guilty of this. The ones who found it too hard complained. They attempted to address the complaints.[/QUOTE]

The game is hardly easier by default, it's merely more dysfunctional.


Niteowl3915
With all due respect...it's very easy to defend a console at a point when it's next gen version just appeared. After a year you'll begin to feel limited again and sadly unlike the pc no ammount of money or tweaks can possibly solve that...perhaps only the next version of it, if it's quality holds.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

[QUOTE=stillodium]With all due respect...it's very easy to defend a console at a point when it's next gen version just appeared. After a year you'll begin to feel limited again and sadly unlike the pc no ammount of money or tweaks can possibly solve that...perhaps only the next version of it, if it's quality holds.[/QUOTE]

I don't do console. Ever.

[fable]

I apologize if it seems like I'm beating a dead horse, but I feel that my points have fallen on deaf ears

We're both doing that. So I'll make my shots at its carcass few, and hope that next time you at least close with a few remarks about primary issues with Oblivion--which I've been doing regularly.

Since when can you upgrade a very slow computer to be faster than a 360?

Ever replace a CPU? I upgraded about 2 years ago to a 3.1 gHz Athlon for a couple of hundred dollars. If you tell me that this is below xbox 360 standards, I'll point out again that phrase "2 years ago," and that this was an easy jump over Microsoft's console, at the time. I could do it again, if I chose to, but at the moment I'll probably wait another year.

The Xbox 360 costs 400 dollars. Last time I checked there are high end graphics cards running that much. True, it cannot be upgraded (that's excluding the planned HD DVD add on), but it won't need to be upgraded for a good while.

You mean the same way no new console is going to need an upgrade for a good while? Try telling this to xbox owners, who had to buy a new console for newer games. I still have Microsoft's literature proclaiming that their original xbox was "the console of the future" that had "everything right out of the box that you'll need to play games for the next decade, and more!"

When shopping for a gaming platform, I would rather put 400 dollars down for a sure thing,

Then why all the complaints about graphical performance of Oblivion on the xbox? I suggested above that you check out the official forums to see this. I'm not saying that people are rending their clothes in complaining about the xbox, but that they are xbox players who have the exact same complaints PC users do. Far from being a sure thing, the only sure thing is that Microsoft thinks every home should have an xbox.

Of course there are complaints, but us console owners can find solace in the fact that there no INI settings to fiddle with, being that the game is already correctly comfigured and optimized for my platform, since every 360 is exactly the same piece of hardware.

All I can figure is that you meant this to be taken as a big joke, or are being paid by Microsoft is some as-yet undetermined currency to sow Orwellian doublespeak. Less is more? Do you really think that most xbox players find solace in the fact that they have fewer options at their disposal to deal with various game issues?

I would check my own facts before accusing anyone else of fabricating his/hers.

This would have a lot more relevancy if you quoted me accurately. The paragraph you referred to, above, which starts:

I think you mean, "A console is built for an audience that has been told they want to do nothing else with it, don't care about articles on the net, don't want to multitask, or upgrade, or run game emulators, or do any of the many things that make a PC a far better overall investment."

..included at that point a wink emoticon, a symbol of humor, which you overlooked. You spent a lot of time, there, defending a point that needed no defense, since it was meant ironically--and intended to reflect on the Xbox Nazis, who feel it can do and be everything, misquoting and mangling facts with zeal.

Enough. If you really want to continue this, send a PM (personal message) to me. And let's return to Oblivion.

Has it bothered anybody else that the streets are so empty? I know that was the case in Morrowind, but the mod Morrowind Comes Alive improved on that. I have no idea if a followup to it is being made, but whenever I enter any reasonably sized city (most notably Imperial City, where you'd expect the most commerce), it seems like a mausoleum: large and empty.

[janhans]

A world that suits you..... all the time

Just finished Oblivion, and it is a great game in my opinion. Two things though
pulls the game down greatly.

1. Everything (monsters, treasure etc.) is suited towards your current level.
This gets boring. In Gothic 2, for those of you who are familiar with the game, you ran away from monsters 99% of the time in the begining. You had to come back when you were high lvl. enough to deal with them. This added greatly to the suspense of the game, and made you feel like the world wasnt
tailored to you.

2. The vast majority of the forts, caves etc. are not quest-related and become pointless to explore after level 20 when you have good gear.


Thanx
Jan, Norway

[MordorMan]

Repopulation

I have just had an experience that made my trousers drop down, pardon the dutchism. In the beginning of the game, when you emerge out of the sewers, there is a ruin on the other side of the water. A group of bandits was living there and I had to kill them because they wanted to do the same to me. Some time and levels later, I came across the same spot. I expected to see a few rotting corpses by the fire that by now should have died out, but what did I see? A group of almost identical bandits had taken over the place! Again there was a bowman, a close combat bandit and a spellcaster. And again they had made a fire in the same spot and put an apple on top of a crate for target practice and put a lettuce and a cheese wedge in a barrel. Amazing! The only difference was that they appeared to have a bit more money and better gear. Just like me.

I think the respawning is a bad idea that was executed even worse. Why do we need respawning areas? It is one of the things that makes immersion and realism suffer. I would like to see fires and torches go out, and rats turning to charcoal if the cook is dead. I would like to see dead corpses where I left them and slowly see them decaying until they are skeletons. If there must be respawning, don't do it in every area, and make some variations. I can imagine a group of goblins taking over a cave where a group of bandits was cleared out, for example. Or my fallen enemies turning in to ghosts or zombies and remembering me if I ever return. Now that would be a different story.