The primary issues with oblivion - lets discuss...
i know oblivion is meant to be a broad game but sometimes i find it to linear. many quests there are only one or two very similar ways to complete. why can't you join the gang from the flowing bowl. why cant you snitch on the dark brotherhood and turn them over to the guards? there are loads of things i wish i could do in oblivion that just aren't there, and so i don't feel as immersed in the game. maybe the programmers were lazy. but hey, thats what they put the modders tools there for
[QUOTE=ammama]i know oblivion is meant to be a broad game but sometimes i find it to linear. many quests there are only one or two very similar ways to complete. why can't you join the gang from the flowing bowl. why cant you snitch on the dark brotherhood and turn them over to the guards? there are loads of things i wish i could do in oblivion that just aren't there, and so i don't feel as immersed in the game. maybe the programmers were lazy. but hey, thats what they put the modders tools there for[/QUOTE]
The immersion factor in Morrowind, and still to a lesser extent Oblivion, is very superficial. Bethsoft seem to be getting there, but they still focus far too much on graphical immersion rather than gameplay or lore. Countless CRPGs and even games in other genres have proved that the latter lead to a better gameplay experiance.
Yes it is breathtaking to gaze across the Lake Rumare at the Imperial City from atop the Orange Road, but the NPCs are still dry, the quests remain mundane and the story still leaves something to be desired. I may have to play Planescape:Torment in 640x480 with grimy, pixelated graphics and less than attractive environments
but I was exhilirated by the lore and absorbing story line.
I want that thrill again, and I hope Bethsoft deliver it eventually.
The immersion factor in Morrowind, and still to a lesser extent Oblivion, is very superficial. Bethsoft seem to be getting there, but they still focus far too much on graphical immersion rather than gameplay or lore. Countless CRPGs and even games in other genres have proved that the latter lead to a better gameplay experiance.
Yes it is breathtaking to gaze across the Lake Rumare at the Imperial City from atop the Orange Road, but the NPCs are still dry, the quests remain mundane and the story still leaves something to be desired. I may have to play Planescape:Torment in 640x480 with grimy, pixelated graphics and less than attractive environments
but I was exhilirated by the lore and absorbing story line.I want that thrill again, and I hope Bethsoft deliver it eventually.
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Niteowl3915
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A number of us have complained about immersion and I'd like to hop on that boat. As Denethorn points out, graphics aren't what it's about. The main cause for me is that it never feels like any quest you do has any effect of the overall world at all. There's a major lack of consequences and repercussions in the game, such that the player feels unrestricted in whatever he/she does.
In Fallout for instance, the player had the option to buy himself more time by sending water traders to the vault, but it also started another timer, unbeknownst to the player, that resulted in the super mutants finding the vault and killing the vault dwellers.
In this way, the designers gave the player the sense that his actions mattered, not so in Oblivion.
I was more immersed in Halo than I was in Oblivion.
Also, the beggars.
A beggar will greet you with a certain voice, then thank you with an entirely different voice when you give alms. Not a different accent, a different voice. That's such a amateurish mistake that I was floored to have found it in a (I'm guessing) multimillion dollar game.
In Fallout for instance, the player had the option to buy himself more time by sending water traders to the vault, but it also started another timer, unbeknownst to the player, that resulted in the super mutants finding the vault and killing the vault dwellers.
In this way, the designers gave the player the sense that his actions mattered, not so in Oblivion.
I was more immersed in Halo than I was in Oblivion.
Also, the beggars.
A beggar will greet you with a certain voice, then thank you with an entirely different voice when you give alms. Not a different accent, a different voice. That's such a amateurish mistake that I was floored to have found it in a (I'm guessing) multimillion dollar game.
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Story bugs
@ Ashen,
THX. So I posted it hear as recommended and the original thread can be erased.
Hi guys, if you have finished the main quest and mages guild you know what I am talking about. Well the Bethesda guys were to lazy or I don’t know, how to explain this to myself. The Kwatsch keeps burning and so does the mages guild in Bruma.
As a new Arch-mage – how about send J’Skar back so he can tidy the mess and open the guild again? No, let’s keep it burning. How about Kwatch? Are the citizens extremely lazy?
Which I found also quite unpleasant, you can’t be a good citizen. As I bribed a beggar, he told me how contact the thief’s guild. But you can’t go to Lex and tell he, how to get them.
My favorite hate-quest is this one with the knight's tears. Searching white little stones on a white surface, it sucks, after one hour my eyes hurt. Why can’t be these tears blue or more recognizable? I just wonder around the frozen knight and I found four of them accidentally. I have no idea have many more I need to find, this quest really sucks.
@ Ashen,
THX. So I posted it hear as recommended and the original thread can be erased.
Hi guys, if you have finished the main quest and mages guild you know what I am talking about. Well the Bethesda guys were to lazy or I don’t know, how to explain this to myself. The Kwatsch keeps burning and so does the mages guild in Bruma.
As a new Arch-mage – how about send J’Skar back so he can tidy the mess and open the guild again? No, let’s keep it burning. How about Kwatch? Are the citizens extremely lazy?
Which I found also quite unpleasant, you can’t be a good citizen. As I bribed a beggar, he told me how contact the thief’s guild. But you can’t go to Lex and tell he, how to get them.
My favorite hate-quest is this one with the knight's tears. Searching white little stones on a white surface, it sucks, after one hour my eyes hurt. Why can’t be these tears blue or more recognizable? I just wonder around the frozen knight and I found four of them accidentally. I have no idea have many more I need to find, this quest really sucks.
[QUOTE=Keevan]
My favorite hate-quest is this one with the knight's tears. Searching white little stones on a white surface, it sucks, after one hour my eyes hurt. Why can’t be these tears blue or more recognizable? I just wonder around the frozen knight and I found four of them accidentally. I have no idea have many more I need to find, this quest really sucks.[/QUOTE]
SPOILERS, highlight to read - just one more, you have to 'climb the statue and it's there, kind of a little behind, you'll see.
I agree about the Kvatch and the MG still in flames. This was rather disappointing but my guess is that they simply didn't have time in order to make the deadline. This I can understand but at least one line that it will be rebuilt when the Obl Gates situation gets settled or something would be good, same goes with the MG. Now this would have been rather short so it could have been done.
My favorite hate-quest is this one with the knight's tears. Searching white little stones on a white surface, it sucks, after one hour my eyes hurt. Why can’t be these tears blue or more recognizable? I just wonder around the frozen knight and I found four of them accidentally. I have no idea have many more I need to find, this quest really sucks.[/QUOTE]
SPOILERS, highlight to read - just one more, you have to 'climb the statue and it's there, kind of a little behind, you'll see.
I agree about the Kvatch and the MG still in flames. This was rather disappointing but my guess is that they simply didn't have time in order to make the deadline. This I can understand but at least one line that it will be rebuilt when the Obl Gates situation gets settled or something would be good, same goes with the MG. Now this would have been rather short so it could have been done.
And He whispered to me in the darkness as we lay together, Tell Me where to touch you so that I can drive you insane; tell Me where to touch you to give you ultimate pleasure, tell Me where to touch you so that we will truly own each other. And I kissed Him softly and whispered back, Touch my mind.
I don't think anyone said anything about the murder you need to commit to get the attention of the Dark Brotherhood. I played the "good guy" and I was shocked when in the arena when I killed the Grand Champion it said that "my actions have been observed by forces...". How can it be murder if the guy asked me to kill him? Not to mention that it was a fight to the death. Also the dark brotherhood seems to think it's murder if a soldier is accidentaly killed by friendly fire...
I don't know maybe this was a bug of some kind, but it's still anoying.
EDIT: The game also has truble assigning bounty when killing NPCs, like when the NPC is friendly then you get a q that might include killing him. Even if he attacks you first you still get 1000 gold bounty. (happened to me when I had to rescue the daughter from that merchant, one of the villigers attacked me after I rescued her and I got this very nice bounty)
I don't know maybe this was a bug of some kind, but it's still anoying.
EDIT: The game also has truble assigning bounty when killing NPCs, like when the NPC is friendly then you get a q that might include killing him. Even if he attacks you first you still get 1000 gold bounty. (happened to me when I had to rescue the daughter from that merchant, one of the villigers attacked me after I rescued her and I got this very nice bounty)
Graphics becomes very unimportant after a minimum level has been reached. That level depends highly on the game world interface as well as the personal preferences of the gamer. This minimum level is clearly higher for a 360 degree first person world exploration type of game such as oblivion than it is for a top-down dungeon hack game such as Nethack. Seeing a lot of '@'s walking around in the Imperial City would most likely feel kind of wrong, allthough the thought is somewhat fun to contemplate
However, quest branching & interconnectivity, in depth conversation and conversation branching coupled with more intelligent NPC conversation (better AI or more heavily scripted conversations) as well as the option for different quest solutions add a lot of "reality feeling" to the game. Your character's impact on the world becomes more tangible. The processing and memory cost for these things are so small that they would have no impact on game performance in a game such as Oblivion. However, they do demand some in the creativity department as opposed to graphics which is "simply" linear algebra and lots and lots of computations.
Also, a more or less linear game with non-linear quests, such as Arcanum, is by far preferable to a non-linear game with linear quests, such as Oblivion. Please note that I'm NOT comparing 3rd person view to 1st person view or graphics. Rather, imagine Arcanum quest implementation in an Oblivion environment!
Conversation
Bethesda boasts (check the game demo video) about how their NPCs are almost not scripted at all, but are controlled by AI along with each NPC having a set of goals. While a good AI is certainly not trivial to develop, heavier scripting or longer AI development time could avoid silly conversations such as:
A: Hi
B: Hi
A: Any news from the other provinces
B: Nothing I'd like to talk about
A: Bye
B: Bye
[Less than a second passes...]
A: Hi
B: Hi. Have you heard about... <insert news from some other province here>
Conversation is also in many aspects completely disjoint from actual in game events. For example *spoiler* NPCs will continue to refer to Traven as being alive and in command of the guild after he is dead and you assume the role of Guild Master.
Conversation branching could be much approved. Options to go down evil, good, cowardly, boastful or other conversational avenues would improve the in character feeling (which is virtually non existent).
Conversation impact would be another nice feature, though I imagine it would take a whole load of work to achieve a sufficient level. But, imagine conversation options (dependent on the speechcraft skill) that you would use to, hopefully, improve the NPC's reaction to your character rather than the quite silly disc rotation approach.
Quests
Quest interconnectivity is another way to improve the feeling that your character has a true impact on the development of the game world. Often it doesn't even need a high level of creativity to achieve this.
Consider a simple thing such as *spoiler*
When you get to the part in the DB quest line where you're supposed to kill the retired officer, you might be given an option to strike a deal with him to fake his death and cut off his finger as proof you completed it, IF you have gained his trust earlier on by ginving him two witnesses to incarcerate the corrupt officer in the Imperial City. This in turn could then lead you to brgining down the entire DB instead of becoming it's leader
Quest branching giving you the oppertunity to make personal choices on how to solve them adds a role playing element (the important part which in my book is what makes a game an RPG: see the RPG general discussion forum for my view on that) and gives a nice foundation for getting "in character". Add in the possibility of different solutions based on your actual character build and things are starting to look very nice indeed.
A very simple and maybe somewhat silly example... Let's say you're asked to put a stop to a corrupt officer of the guard.
1) You have a high speechcraft skill (character build option enables this) and are able to persuade/fool the head of the imperial guard to
1a) outright kill the corrupt officer (pure player choice, in character acting; evil/chaotic solution)
1b) drag him before a magistrate (lawful solition) where you once again use your speechcraft skill (as dialogue options) to
1b-a) have him hanged (vengeful approach)
1b-b) have him pay restitution to his victims then be sent to hard prison
labor (the goody-two-shoe way of doing things)
2) You have a high marksman skill allowing you to
2a) Use blunt arrows to knock the corrupt officer and his shady contact
unconscious at a crime scene where the guards will find them...
2b) Kill an innocent from an angle that makes it look like it was the corrupt
officer who did the deed...
If this is coupled with quest interconnectivity things can quickly become rather complex. Perhaps one or more of these solutions open up, or closes down, other quests or possible quest solutions. It also adds a lot to the atmosphere and your character becomes more real.
Game World Impact
A lot can be done in this department as well. Let's just say I was very disappointed when the second Necromancer I encounter, far from the first I found, actually attacks me when I walk up to him peacefully without sneaking wearing a full necromancer garb...
Considering the success of the TES series, Bethesda ought to be in a position where they could put considerable effort into these things. While they obviously don't create games out of charity, I'd gladly take the aforementioned improvements at a trade off in worse graphics or a higher retail price. As things stand, Oblivion is nothing more than a Zelda II (The Adventures of Link for the NES) in 3D.
However, quest branching & interconnectivity, in depth conversation and conversation branching coupled with more intelligent NPC conversation (better AI or more heavily scripted conversations) as well as the option for different quest solutions add a lot of "reality feeling" to the game. Your character's impact on the world becomes more tangible. The processing and memory cost for these things are so small that they would have no impact on game performance in a game such as Oblivion. However, they do demand some in the creativity department as opposed to graphics which is "simply" linear algebra and lots and lots of computations.
Also, a more or less linear game with non-linear quests, such as Arcanum, is by far preferable to a non-linear game with linear quests, such as Oblivion. Please note that I'm NOT comparing 3rd person view to 1st person view or graphics. Rather, imagine Arcanum quest implementation in an Oblivion environment!
Conversation
Bethesda boasts (check the game demo video) about how their NPCs are almost not scripted at all, but are controlled by AI along with each NPC having a set of goals. While a good AI is certainly not trivial to develop, heavier scripting or longer AI development time could avoid silly conversations such as:
A: Hi
B: Hi
A: Any news from the other provinces
B: Nothing I'd like to talk about
A: Bye
B: Bye
[Less than a second passes...]
A: Hi
B: Hi. Have you heard about... <insert news from some other province here>
Conversation is also in many aspects completely disjoint from actual in game events. For example *spoiler* NPCs will continue to refer to Traven as being alive and in command of the guild after he is dead and you assume the role of Guild Master.
Conversation branching could be much approved. Options to go down evil, good, cowardly, boastful or other conversational avenues would improve the in character feeling (which is virtually non existent).
Conversation impact would be another nice feature, though I imagine it would take a whole load of work to achieve a sufficient level. But, imagine conversation options (dependent on the speechcraft skill) that you would use to, hopefully, improve the NPC's reaction to your character rather than the quite silly disc rotation approach.
Quests
Quest interconnectivity is another way to improve the feeling that your character has a true impact on the development of the game world. Often it doesn't even need a high level of creativity to achieve this.
Consider a simple thing such as *spoiler*
When you get to the part in the DB quest line where you're supposed to kill the retired officer, you might be given an option to strike a deal with him to fake his death and cut off his finger as proof you completed it, IF you have gained his trust earlier on by ginving him two witnesses to incarcerate the corrupt officer in the Imperial City. This in turn could then lead you to brgining down the entire DB instead of becoming it's leader
Quest branching giving you the oppertunity to make personal choices on how to solve them adds a role playing element (the important part which in my book is what makes a game an RPG: see the RPG general discussion forum for my view on that) and gives a nice foundation for getting "in character". Add in the possibility of different solutions based on your actual character build and things are starting to look very nice indeed.
A very simple and maybe somewhat silly example... Let's say you're asked to put a stop to a corrupt officer of the guard.
1) You have a high speechcraft skill (character build option enables this) and are able to persuade/fool the head of the imperial guard to
1a) outright kill the corrupt officer (pure player choice, in character acting; evil/chaotic solution)
1b) drag him before a magistrate (lawful solition) where you once again use your speechcraft skill (as dialogue options) to
1b-a) have him hanged (vengeful approach)
1b-b) have him pay restitution to his victims then be sent to hard prison
labor (the goody-two-shoe way of doing things)
2) You have a high marksman skill allowing you to
2a) Use blunt arrows to knock the corrupt officer and his shady contact
unconscious at a crime scene where the guards will find them...
2b) Kill an innocent from an angle that makes it look like it was the corrupt
officer who did the deed...
If this is coupled with quest interconnectivity things can quickly become rather complex. Perhaps one or more of these solutions open up, or closes down, other quests or possible quest solutions. It also adds a lot to the atmosphere and your character becomes more real.
Game World Impact
A lot can be done in this department as well. Let's just say I was very disappointed when the second Necromancer I encounter, far from the first I found, actually attacks me when I walk up to him peacefully without sneaking wearing a full necromancer garb...
Considering the success of the TES series, Bethesda ought to be in a position where they could put considerable effort into these things. While they obviously don't create games out of charity, I'd gladly take the aforementioned improvements at a trade off in worse graphics or a higher retail price. As things stand, Oblivion is nothing more than a Zelda II (The Adventures of Link for the NES) in 3D.
The biggest thing I dont like is that there are only 7 major skills and no minor skills. My rank is a 39 and I can level up only a few more times, if I pick a million locks and spend a week just persuading people (yes, i'm a moron and picked speechcraft as a major)
My skills are very low. In Morrowind, I ended up 100 in everything but Luck. Now I have like 3 skills at 100 and everything else sucks. I'm upset.
I also dislike the fact that I really haven't accomplished anything in the last 100 hours of gameplay (I'm up to 170+). I've closed like 35 gates, own 6 or 7 houses, have 200,000 gold, chests full or armor and weapons i'll never use or never sell. The occasional awesome ring keeps me going through the gates, but it seems pointless after a while. i have been contemplating just finishing the main quest and starting over.
I haven't read all these posts and I haven't found the Morrowind vs Oblivion topic (link please anyone?) but I have determined that Morrowind was so much better just because it set the precedent almost. it was the very first RPG I ever played. yes, Oblivion is downright amazing, but it just seems to be lacking in originality (same books, weapons, guilds...) as Morrowind.
ps Do you think Elder Scrolls 5 will be on Summerset Isle? if they make one
My skills are very low. In Morrowind, I ended up 100 in everything but Luck. Now I have like 3 skills at 100 and everything else sucks. I'm upset.
I also dislike the fact that I really haven't accomplished anything in the last 100 hours of gameplay (I'm up to 170+). I've closed like 35 gates, own 6 or 7 houses, have 200,000 gold, chests full or armor and weapons i'll never use or never sell. The occasional awesome ring keeps me going through the gates, but it seems pointless after a while. i have been contemplating just finishing the main quest and starting over.
I haven't read all these posts and I haven't found the Morrowind vs Oblivion topic (link please anyone?) but I have determined that Morrowind was so much better just because it set the precedent almost. it was the very first RPG I ever played. yes, Oblivion is downright amazing, but it just seems to be lacking in originality (same books, weapons, guilds...) as Morrowind.
ps Do you think Elder Scrolls 5 will be on Summerset Isle? if they make one