The Succeeder Stronghold

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:46 pm

[QUOTE=ch85us2001]5>1

It's all logic. I'm a very practical minded person.

I wouldnt throw myself in front of it, though. What benefit do I get from stopping a train if I die from it?[/QUOTE]
I suppose the same would go for me, though it might depend on how well I know the people *shrugs*

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:47 pm

[QUOTE=ch85us2001]5>1

It's all logic. I'm a very practical minded person.

[/QUOTE]

No doubts about the responsibility you accept from taking action?

@ Rav. A very good point. For the sake of argument lets say you don't know any of them. Though I would be interested to hear why you think it makes a difference, and in what terms

ch85us2001 · Post by **ch85us2001** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:50 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]No doubts about the responsibility you accept from taking action?[/QUOTE]
Oh, more than likely, but I don't have time to think of that, I have a train to stop!

So, I'd end up stuck in some cailfornia Psycholigists office, probably.

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:50 pm

As I said, it depends on chances and the examples are not clear.

for example in the first case: are we talking of 1 person who is certain to die and 9 persons who are certain to survive, or 10 persons who each have a chance of 1 in 10 to die?

Secondly, it also depends on how society views the act.

ch85us2001 · Post by **ch85us2001** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:52 pm

[QUOTE=Lestat]

Secondly, it also depends on how society views the act.[/QUOTE]
*whispers* He has to keep his cred' up.

Damuna_Nova · Post by **Damuna_Nova** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:53 pm

Chu, think about it.

You're saying take one life for the good of the many, traditional American values, yet you are saying let it be someone else, instead of sacrificing yourself like a true American.

That is a supreme act of cowardice, and it will come back to haunt you.

As Rav said though:

[quote="Bunny]RaSylver says:
at least he's honest about it[/quote"]

What makes your life more important than others? My yes answer on two, purely a joke.

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:54 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]@ Rav. A very good point. For the sake of argument lets say you don't know any of them. Though I would be interested to hear why you think it makes a difference, and in what terms[/QUOTE]
Well, here's a conundrum...would you do more to help a loved one, an acquaintance, TV/Radio personality or a complete stranger?

And I suppose there's the age thing too...it was five old terminally ill people or one healthy young person...
Hmm...
Yep, I've evaded your question a bit there.

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:54 pm

[QUOTE=ch85us2001]*whispers* He has to keep his cred' up.

[/QUOTE]
Nope but if you get in jail for pushing a person in front of a trolley and not for diverting the trolley, that changes the results of your actions in a significant way.

ch85us2001 · Post by **ch85us2001** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:55 pm

[QUOTE=Damuna_Nova]

What makes your life more important than others?[/QUOTE]
It's mine. I'd expect someone standing beside me to do the same.

I would (and have, unfortunately) risk my life to save someone elses, but whats the point of doing something that will result in certain death? You dont take it with you.

Damuna_Nova · Post by **Damuna_Nova** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:56 pm

[QUOTE=Ravager]Well, here's a conundrum...would you do more to help a loved one, an acquaintance or a TV/Radio personality?

And I suppose there's the age thing too...it was five old terminally ill people or one healthy young person...[/QUOTE]

Ha, there are people I would willingly sacrifice myself for.

Also, go with the old people.

They hae knowledge! Precious knowledge!

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:56 pm

[QUOTE=Lestat]As I said, it depends on chances and the examples are not clear.

for example in the first case: are we talking of 1 person who is certain to die and 9 persons who are certain to survive, or 10 persons who each have a chance of 1 in 10 to die?

Secondly, it also depends on how society views the act.[/QUOTE]

I do not know where you get 10 from since the examples are separate. In the first problem there are 5 people on the track whom the trolley will kill if not diverted. There is of course the possiblitily of unforeseen events stopping it such as an act of god or an fault on the line which will derail it. But you have no reason to anticipate such an event or intervention. If you divert it then there is one person on the line whom the trolley will kill (with the same qualifications, obviously)

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:57 pm

[QUOTE=Damuna_Nova]Ha, there are people I would willingly sacrifice myself for.

Also, go with the old people.

They hae knowledge! Precious knowledge![/QUOTE]
What if they were going to die the day after, though?

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:58 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]I do not know where you get 10 from since the examples are separate. In the first problem there are 5 people on the track whom the trolley will kill if not diverted. There is of course the possiblitily of unforeseen events stopping it such as an act of god or an fault on the line which will derail it. But you have no reason to anticipate such an event or intervention. If you divert it then there is one person on the line whom the trolley will kill (with the same qualifications, obviously)[/QUOTE]
The number is irrelevant. In case one there is one person out of X persons on the trolley who will die and all of X persons have an equal chance to be that person, OR one clearly designated person will die.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:59 pm

[QUOTE=Ravager]What if they were going to die the day after, though?

[/QUOTE]

Can you know that for anyone young or old? Given that you do not know them?

@ Lestat. No-one is on the trolley. They are all on the track and for the purposes of this question they are probably going to be hit by and killed by it. In the first example assume they are abreast and the trolly is wider than the line they make so that it is likely to kill them all

ch85us2001 · Post by **ch85us2001** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:59 pm

Sorry, but flatten the old people. Young people have many more years left to live.

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:00 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]Can you know that for anyone young or old? Given that you do not know them?[/QUOTE]
Like Chu says...you can have some basic idea without knowing for sure. Even if it is false, that's the best information you have.

ch85us2001 · Post by **ch85us2001** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:06 pm

Yeah, I think I should go now.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:09 pm

It is interesting. Nobody I was talking to tonight approached this problem by trying to attribute relative value to the individuals concerned. I wonder why not? I think that both Chu and Rav have at least demonstrated that human life is not a commodity since the value of a commodity is partly determined by its scarcity and in that case the years left to an old person would be more precious than those for a young person, being assumed to be be fewer. I wonder if old people might take that view if they had the switch?

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:09 pm

The thing I like about these questions is that they have to make it more and more unrealistic to serve as a real test of conscience...

Athena · Post by **Athena** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:09 pm

hellos!