Most Useless Spells

[ellipsis jones]

I hadn't thought about fighter/mages using chill touch. That's a good point - it counters a lot of the spell's drawbacks.

The spell damage you list for chill touch and magic missile is off, though. The missiles actually do 2D2 each, and chill touch only does 1D8. So for a seventh level caster it's an average of 12 damage for missiles vs. an average of 4 with chill touch. Chill touch also counts as a non-enchanted piercing weapon, although it has a +4 to hit.

Even assuming a fighter/mage protagonist, I don't think the spell pulls its weight for general usage. In the heat of battle, you're going to want to use your one action per round for more important things - casting powerful spells, quaffing heals, etc. It also limits your options: you basically have to charge in immediately and smack someone to use up the chill touch, because until you do, you're stuck with having it equipped. You can't use missile weapons, and you lose any passive benefits from whatever melee weapon you normally have equipped.

But in a situation where you know there's single combat coming up, it could theoretically be useful. Let's assume an 11th level enemy fighter with a thac0 of ten, versus your fighter/mage with an AC of zero. You hit him with chill touch and he fails his save, bringing his thac0 up to 12. You've just taken away 1/5 of his hits. Not bad. Unfortunately, he'll save half the time, so the actual benefit is more like 1/10. Still, not useless (there, I admitted it!).

I'm guessing we've just about exhausted the possibilities of discussion for chill touch, so I'll throw out another spell: Protection from Acid. What enemy uses acid attacks? There's melf's acid arrow, but it does so little damage that its main use is to disrupt casting, and protection from acid doesn't stop that disruption from happening.

Can we agree on infravision and know alignment as being definitely useless? Infravision has the exact same range as the caster's default sight radius, as far as I know. And know alignment appears to be superceded by detect evil, so I think that's still in the useless column as well.

[Earnest]

Know Allignment: Im not sure if one of the mods I have used has changed the effect of this spell, but when I have used it, it has checked everyone on the map (or at least, within a large radius). I therefore get an idea of remaining monsters. Regardless of their allignment, there have been times when I just wanted to know IF they were there at all. Thus it has provided information about how many foes I may be facing around the corner.

Infravision: Never used this, never will.

Protection from Acid: The first time I killed Pontifex I used this spell. Last time I survived his breath with a Spell Immunity.

Color Spray: Unfortunately it only effects very low level creatures - ones which are easily defeated while fully conscious.

Non-Detection: My experience comes from the cloak of non-detection. I have found that enemies can still reveal my invis with True Sight etc, so I am not convinced of the utility of this spell. Certainly I have never memorised it.

Larlochs Minor Drain: In SoA, surely this is a waste of a spell slot. 4 hit points and no side effects is close to useless in my opinion.
UNLESS it disrupts casters, in which case base cast time of 1 makes it a good spell for that purpose (I havent tested this).

Summon Nishruu / Hakeashar: After learning there may have been a chance of magical items being consumed, I have never used this line. The best way to remove spells from an enemy mage's memory is to kill that mage

[Amran_X_Kaiser]

Reply

Note Hakeasher/Nishruu can kill enemy spellcasters, Hakeashar especially when the spellcaster in question as it reduces the spells he has by draining per attack a spell per attack, the highest spell is consumed I believe (I may be wrong if so correct) this coupled with their spellcasting ability, which Include Ghost Armor and Lightnig Bolt make them powerful.

Spellcasters that have little in the way of equipment just happen to number some of the most powerful: Irenicus in Suldenessar, Lavok in the Planar Sphere or Conster in Windspear Hills.

Infravision is useful - refer to an earlier post:
'On the infravision note, yes its not as good as Oracle or Wizards Eye - but note, neither of these are in BG1, and that infravision does allow you to view an enemy beyond normal sight.

Answer me this - how many of you have killed an enemy before he reached you or initiated dialogue and you got a few hits in there ?

This spells gives you the advantage of getting even more cheeky hits as it increases your line of sight without risking yourself if that character is a powerful melee character such as Sarevok in BG1 or Abazigal in BG2.'

Ever equipped the Helm of Infravision in Irenicus Dungeon or wore the Ring of Infravision ?

As for the spell, although the magical items mentioned above to do not have the same ability as per the spell, it is useful - ever accidentally stumbled into the pillars in the Asylum Maze ? Crushed. No thank you.

[ellipsis jones]

I still haven't seen evidence that infravision actually extends the player's viewing range. And I have used the helm of infravision, as well as played characters with infravision. It never helped me get more hits in on distant enemies, it just tinted them pink. How does it help you avoid the asylum crusher? It looks the same to me with or without infravision...

[Amran_X_Kaiser]

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If you play with characters that have infravision ofcourse the spell or helm won't help.

Although I am aware that in BG 1 the evidence of Infravision increasing the users line of sight is apparent, as for BG2 considering I use party infravision I am uncertain at the time and have no way of testing - uninstalled BG2 temporarily.

Although in a certain Chosen of Cyric mod battle, the infravision grants the user extended sight - this is what I believe infravision is intended to do.

[Deadalready]

Answer me this - how many of you have killed an enemy before he reached you or initiated dialogue and you got a few hits in there?

Heaps of times, I've had to reload a few times when I've blown up a person when their scripts didn't kick in fast enough at a certain hp range.

~

As for your level drain arguement, to have that spell normally would require what more than 2,950,000 experience? At level 18 a sorceror doesn't fight monsters where draining 8 hitpoints off them matters enough to make it a useful or a viable tactic. Add to this the cheesy way many monsters are structured and scripted to actually have infinite spells and where losing a few couldn't even possibily matter.

A spell that is equal in level requirement as something like Meteor Storm, Imprisonment (instant kill), Powerword Kill or Spell Trap, makes it seem even more out of place. Additionally I've had many fights where I've had Misc or Valygar level drained to level 2 and they still continued to fight with considerable vigor, this is a level drain of about 8 levels too. I hardly think a monster with a THACO of TOO GOD DAMN HIGH reduced to ALMOST TOO GOD DAMN HIGH (1 or 2 THACO difference) would be enough to affect a battle considering the range of of to hit rolls.

The only opponent that could be affected by this spell would have to be so pitifully low a level that fireball would easily kill it; Reducing a monsters fighting power to make it even easier to one hit KO it makes it more ludicrous.

~

Now that I think of it, any weapon protection spell after level 6 Protection from Magic weapons has lost their use. Mantle for example I think it protects up to +3 weapons? At level 7 spell power? Protection from Magic Weapons on the otherhand is level 6 and protects from all magic weapons (save normal), don't even try and put protection from normal weapons is a must, when again monsters that are armed with such pathetic weapons aren't even a consideration (and countered by Stoneskin). Due to the way spell progression is structured and high level spells are seriously outnumbered by low level ones it's easier to use two low level ones than waste a precious high level one to equal the same effect.

[Amran_X_Kaiser]

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Man that spell-scripting thing bites. The only instance I used it was when I was facing the Chosen of Cyric and that small guy came at me - level drained him to prevent him from casting any level 6 spells that he so loved throwing my way or when that woman sends an Abi-Dhalzim on me.

True the Level Drain is not a powerful spell especially with comparisons to other spells. The ability to possess Level Drain in terms of a weapon effect on the other-hand is the exact opposite.

The spell is largely in my opinion a bad move to have for a mage, always thought a cleric should have been able to reduce the power of a character rather than a mage.

Not exactly the most effective spell in the world, but every spell genre; offensive, defensive or magical (white) has a bad cookie that is close to being classed as useless. This time it might be the Level Drain.

[Earnest]

Level drain has one thing going for it - its a single target level 9 spell. In my last game I kept 2 Level Drain scrolls and used them to self-feed spells back through Spell Trap and Project Image. Saved having to have PWK memorized. I will probably do the same this time also.

[Philos]

Infravision

Concur with you, ellipsis

Quote: "I still haven't seen evidence that infravision actually extends the player's viewing range. And I have used the helm of infravision, as well as played characters with infravision. It never helped me get more hits in on distant enemies, it just tinted them pink. How does it help you avoid the asylum crusher? It looks the same to me with or without infravision..."

That has been my experience as well. Had Minsc early on using that helm and a bow but saw no benefit. There may be some write up or notes somewhere that say infravision will do ......, but does not "SEEM" to be the case in actual play. As I mentioned earlier far easier to position an invisible scout just within viewing range of the enemy and then have a spellcaster launch from nice area effect spell from outside the enemy's view. Anomen casting Firestorm works pretty good.

But will probably try again just to be sure.

[Da_venom]

about he infravision thing
wasn't it that without infravision you could not see good in the dark
for example a green trol would be dark green thus seeing him not very good

with infravision on the other hand it wil glow pink so you can see him easily
in dark area's enemy's will lit up

however as said by some IT DoEs "NOT" enlarge your vision!
infravision makes your enemy lit in the dark nothing else

at least that is my experiene of the spell
and thus it's very useless
i mean pres spacebar and the red circle will be seen too IIRC

[Amran_X_Kaiser]

Reply

I thought it showed people in the dark.

But I stand by the BG 1 improvement on line of sight that the helm or ring of infravision gave - largely because either of those items did extend the line of sight whilst the spell or ability differs.

If the spell and ability did the same thing then it would be useful, although Oracle or Wizards Eye are developed on this it does seem that Infravision is the closest useless spell that has been discussed in this thread.

[Lark]

About chill touch:
I think that chill touch has actually, under very special and rare circumstances some use. It is a weapon spell that creates an item in your weapon slots, which does very minor damage. But this item is at the same time unenchanted AND does elemental (cold) damage. So it can pierce at the same time protection of magic weapons and stoneskin. The only other weapons that are capable of this trick are the crossbow of searing, the firetooth crossbow and gesen's bow, all of which are missile weapons, loaded with unenchanted ammunition. Chill touch remains as the only melee weapon that can pull this stunt.

User Unfriendly writes in his cheese guide [url="http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Stuff/Cheese.htm"](link)[/url] about killing Kuroisan with the crossbow of searing and unenchanted ammo punching simultaneously through PfmW and Stoneskin (If you want a detailed explanation of the process read the Cheese Guide). Since Kensai->Mages cannot use missile weapons they have to rely on chilltouch in this case if they want to make use of this weakness. Apart from that, this would be the only possibility for pure mages/sorcerors as well, as they can't use crossbows and bows, but lacking fighting capabilities it might not be a very wise move going toe to toe with Kuroisan.

Other than that I see no use for chill touch and I'd like to qote Xyx' spell reference [url="http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Main.htm"](link)[/url] about this spell: Chill Touch
The worst kind of spell; useless and puts the caster in danger. You have to roll to hit, the target gets a save and even if it works this hardly does anything. Avoid like the plague.
I can only recommend the Spell Reference by Xyx. For all who wonder whether certain spells are useful or not, it may be worthwhile checking out Xyx' opinion on it.

[Amran_X_Kaiser]

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'Not to be confused with melee spells (no Hit Roll is needed here), although attack spells with range Touch are nearly as dangerous to the caster. Being rather frail, pure Mages and Sorcerers should stay away from Touch attack spells. Priests and Fighter/Mages have the armor and Hit Points needed to use these spells to full effect.'

Not exactly useless. Using the spell alone may lead to the caster being attacked, but couple any magical melee power available to the mage - phantom blade, black blade of disaster with either tenser's transformation and/or improved haste and your mage will be able to go melee with an advantage, not to mention still being able to cast mage spells.

Xyx's opinions are relevant but it also maybe worthwhile judging for yourself - ie playing BG2 with the spell memorized and trying it out.

[Lark]

Dear Amran X Kaiser,

since you recommend to me it might be worth my while judging for myself, i.e. playing the game with the respective spell memorized and trying it out ingame, i feel obliged to answer and to recommend to you the same, trying things out.

Please try the following:
1. Play the game, memorize tensers transformation, try the spell out and try if you will still be able to cast spells from your spellbook - you won't. Do you really want to claim, that after casting TT you will 'still be able to cast mage spells'?

2. Play the game, memorize Chill Touch, Phantom Blade and Black Blade of Desaster, and try if you will be able to have either Chill Touch and Phantom Blade active at the same time, or if you will be able to have Chill Touch and Black Blade of Desaster active at the same time - you will neither. Do you suppose, that the usefulness of Chill Touch can be enhanced by using it in conjunction with another 'melee spell', either Phantom Blade or BBoD?

3. Play the game, memorize Chill Touch, try the spell out, then switch to your inventory and try to unequip your weapon(s) - You will get the feedback: 'Magic weapon in use.' Since you quote the entry under 'touch spells' form the the [url="http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/GeneralSpellInfo.htm#SpellTypes"]spell reference[/url] instead of the entry under 'melee spells', it seems as if you were of the opinion that Chill Touch is a 'touch spell' and no 'melee spell'. (For clarification: Examples for touch spells: Vampire Touch, Maze, Imprisonment, Heal; Examples for Melee Spells: Phantom Blade, BBoD, Chill Touch, Harm.)

Sincerely Yours,
Lark

[Amran_X_Kaiser]

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Wow I didn't realise you'd take it so personally as to make the thread directed at me. My previous posted wasn't directed at you however, so if you have a beef with me then post a private message to me as Fable doesn't like squabbling in the threads.

As for the post I think your misinterpretating what I said.

I didn't recommend the order as to which the spells should be cast. I spell trigger spells that limit a persons ability to offset the disadvantages - TT, IH and PB for example.

As for not being able to cast spells - quickslots or innate abilities are still available to the caster as far as I know (if not please clarify) so you should be able to cast spells provided you have equipped the necessary means to do so.

Also; I recommended combining TT or IH WITH any of the following; BBoD, PB or CT - NOT to combine the melee orientated spells altogether - the outcome of that battle would be quickly over when trying it BG2.

I am man enough to admit that I may have quoted the wrong paragraph by Xyx but that doesn't mean much. The form of which the attack is made is the same - you have to get up close and personal whilst TT would aid in the THACO department.

Also that last note - thanks for the clarification even though it seems rather trivial - it wasn't an opinion - just a relevant passage that I felt was a useful addition, although it seems your making my opinion up for me - if it was an opinion - I hardly see what commenting about another's users opinion is going to do for this thread even if you disagree with it.

[mr_sir]

If you cast a spell that gives you a melee attack, such as chill touch, you still have access to your other spells and your inventory. The only thing you cannot change is your currently equipped weapon (due to it now being magical). There is no reason why another spell cannot be cast while the melee spell is still active, although I haven't personally tried this.

Using a sequence of melee spells (I think this is what Amran was meaning more than having them all active at the same time) in battle can quickly turn it in your favour and I agree with Amran on his suggestions. It is true however that Tensers Transformation disables your spells but this does not mean you cannot cast extra spells before using Tensers Transformation

[Lark]

@Amran X Kaiser
Since you asked for clarification: TT disables your spells and innate abilities. You will however be able to use your quickslot items.

@mr_sir

If you cast a spell that gives you a melee attack, such as chill touch, you still have access to your other spells and your inventory.

Nobody denied that.

The only thing you cannot change is your currently equipped weapon (due to it now being magical).

Nobody denied that.

There is no reason why another spell cannot be cast while the melee spell is still active[...]

Nobody denied that.

[...]although I haven't personally tried this.

When in doubt, try it out. But you are right, you will be able to cast spells from your spell book (or from scrolls), the only melee spell that will block your spellcasting (at least from the book, not from scrolls) is Seeking Sword.

Using a sequence of melee spells (I think this is what Amran was meaning more than having them all active at the same time) in battle can quickly turn it in your favour[...]

That's a bit generalized.

[...]and I agree with Amran on his suggestions. It is true however that Tensers Transformation disables your spells but this does not mean you cannot cast extra spells before using Tensers Transformation.

Again, nobody doubted that.

On Topic:
I did not doubt that Tensers Transformation or Improved Haste are powerful spells. I just doubt the usefulness of chill touch, even if enhanced by the aforementioned spells. I quoted the spell reference, because I share it's opinion in this matter, and - having played the game with the spells memorized and tried things out - couldnt express it better. Actually, I did find an (albeit tiny) use for Chill Touch - it pierces PfmW and Stoneskin at the same time.

For completeness, from the spell reference:

On Melee Spells:

Melee Spells
Spells that create an item with which the caster has to hit enemies are mostly worthless. Pure wizards and Sorcerers have pathetic combat abilities and will not last long anywhere near the frontline, so they should avoid these spells like the plague. Fighter/Mages and priests are much more durable and have better THAC0. They could make use of these spells, were it not that most are not worth the effort of casting if you have a good weapon. Spells that enhance the caster's melee capabilities are also best reserved for priests and Fighter/Mage types, as only they are suitable for melee in the first place.

On Chill Touch:

Chill Touch
The worst kind of spell; useless and puts the caster in danger. You have to roll to hit, the target gets a save and even if it works this hardly does anything. Avoid like the plague.

with kind regards,
Lark

[snoopyofour]

I'm not prepared to say what I think the most useless spell is, though it is probably infravision (which is funny when you think about how useful it ought to be, I mean wouldn't invisibility and hide in shadows be sort of null and void with it), but i do have a candidate for my favorite spell, or rather spell combo. I like to play with a shapeshifter and sorceror and one move I would like to try, somebody do this I don't have my game installed, for powerful single monsters (dragons in particular) is to cast a few summoning spells with your druid (they don't have to be high level ones, the critters don't need to last too long) then cast energy blades and have your mage cast improved haste on your druid. that would leave his number of attacks at 20. There may be monsters out there that wouldn't die from that, but I don't think I've run into any.

[Amran_X_Kaiser]

Reply

Close mr_sir but my meaning was

Try to Trigger the following:

Improved Haste
Tensers Transformation
AND ONE melee spell

Until this combination is applied then you still have access to your mage spells or scrolls. Afterwards you can enter melee with still being able to use quickslots - last resort spells that I use incase ever needing to enter melee combat or running out of spells.

Infravision does seem to be the spell most likely to be classed as useless.

Snoopyofour - you can also do that with a high level mage/sorcerer with summons ranging from mordy swords to fiends.

[Da_venom]

c'mon guys were getting a bit off the topic here

chill touch has some use

and is certainly not useless

the most useless spell was infravision
and that kind of ended this thread