Due to all the discussions I've been getting into on this topic lately I thought I'd make it a thread. There is plenty of evidence to support mages being one, if not the most powerful class in the game but people seem to assume that this makes them invincible to every other combatant. I want to see what people will come up with if the challenge is to think of ways to take down a powerful mage with a single combatant or at the very most a group of three. Put plenty of detail into your posts. I want this to be a kind of point and counterpoint thing. Mage users, you're the other half of this discussion so absolutely feel free to post. But everyone please keep this free of cheese.
Since I know someone is going to say it I might as well start by getting it out of the way...protection from magic scroll.
PS: This is mostly pertaining to pc's other than pure mages.
Anti-Mage Techniques (for Tactics)
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snoopyofour
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Anti-Mage Techniques (for Tactics)
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
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Luis Antonio
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@snoopy, the parchments of magic block are rather hard to find, and must be reserved for really tough combats. Do you use CLUAConsole?
Also, I noticed you want tactics for beating mages and improved mages - aye. Now, which party - character would you use? It seems you dont mention that on the post above.
Also, I noticed you want tactics for beating mages and improved mages - aye. Now, which party - character would you use? It seems you dont mention that on the post above.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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snoopyofour
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The scrolls are a little rare but not that hard to find. The point is that they work so well that they make any mage fight a non-fight and I only mentioned them so that we could move on to the interesting tactics of mage killing.
As for what characters to use, I would use a barbarian (of course) but I'm interested in all character strategies with the exception of purebreed mages. Mage vs. mage fights are fun simply because it feels like an arms race but we've all been there and done that and I think it'd be more interesting to hear about methods for other characters.
CLUAConsole...I have no idea what you're talking about. Care to elaborate?
As for what characters to use, I would use a barbarian (of course) but I'm interested in all character strategies with the exception of purebreed mages. Mage vs. mage fights are fun simply because it feels like an arms race but we've all been there and done that and I think it'd be more interesting to hear about methods for other characters.
CLUAConsole...I have no idea what you're talking about. Care to elaborate?
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
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Luis Antonio
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CLUAConsole is a cheat system. You edit Baldur.ini and add a debug=1 or a cheats=1 line under game options tag. Then you press control (space I guess) and you're able to enter commands for the game, that go like CLUAConsole:SetCurrentXP("xxx") where xxx is the ammount of experience you want. It goes well for items too, though I cannot remember the exact keyword. If you use the scroll for attacking mages, you can only be cheating or knowing a merchant with unlimited scrolls. AFAIK there are 3-4 scrolls of those in the game, and I wont touch them.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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snoopyofour
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"AFAIK there are 3-4 scrolls of those in the game, and I wont touch them."
And I don't need them.
Like I said before I only mentioned them because it was so obvious and I wanted to get it out of the way. And considering that I think cheese is cheating, I definetly don't use a game editor (Oh except for when I want to make my character look different. You haven't seen funny until you've watched a hedgehog kill a dragon). Anyhow, enough with the scrolls, we're supposed to be talking about tactics remember?
And I don't need them.
Like I said before I only mentioned them because it was so obvious and I wanted to get it out of the way. And considering that I think cheese is cheating, I definetly don't use a game editor (Oh except for when I want to make my character look different. You haven't seen funny until you've watched a hedgehog kill a dragon). Anyhow, enough with the scrolls, we're supposed to be talking about tactics remember?When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
To take down a mage, you'll need another kind of caster or in other way dispelling ability. There are many different kind of casters in the game - would you care to explain which one you mean?
We have casters from the regular computer-controlled mages who will go down to anything whirlwinding a carsomyr, through the buffed liches with the "imp caster, imp. ud" mods who will need some cheese to go all way down, to the player-controlled sorceress with vecna, who won't fall for anything.
Except pro-magic, which is only two scrolls in the entire game, both bought in adventure's market. But even a player-controlled sorc have ways to remove that...
Anyway, describe what kind of mage you're thinking will be the challenge, and then the discussion can begin.
We have casters from the regular computer-controlled mages who will go down to anything whirlwinding a carsomyr, through the buffed liches with the "imp caster, imp. ud" mods who will need some cheese to go all way down, to the player-controlled sorceress with vecna, who won't fall for anything.
Except pro-magic, which is only two scrolls in the entire game, both bought in adventure's market.
But even a player-controlled sorc have ways to remove that...Anyway, describe what kind of mage you're thinking will be the challenge, and then the discussion can begin.
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snoopyofour
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"through the buffed liches with the "imp caster, imp. ud" mods who will need some cheese to go all way down, to the player-controlled sorceress with vecna, who won't fall for anything."
Are those the liches from tactics. Unless you're talking about something a little harder than the tactics liches I don't understand the challenge. Yeah, they're a little hard with a full skeleton escort (especially when you have a level 9/9, c/r and a sorceror with nothing better than breach) but once you get them by themselves they're no problem. Let's talk about fighting one of your pc sorceresses (in essence a perfectly played mage). You can have any spell minus imprisonment.
On another note, will somebody please tell me where I can find a mod where stuff works. I'm getting pretty tired of getting hit by lightning bolts and fireballs when I've got protection from magic cast on me. Also there doesn't seem to be much point to using non-detection when it doesn't work with invisibility spells. One thing that annoys me about the tactics mod is that the mages are easily twice as powerful but you don't get any more experience for killing them.
Are those the liches from tactics. Unless you're talking about something a little harder than the tactics liches I don't understand the challenge. Yeah, they're a little hard with a full skeleton escort (especially when you have a level 9/9, c/r and a sorceror with nothing better than breach) but once you get them by themselves they're no problem. Let's talk about fighting one of your pc sorceresses (in essence a perfectly played mage). You can have any spell minus imprisonment.
On another note, will somebody please tell me where I can find a mod where stuff works. I'm getting pretty tired of getting hit by lightning bolts and fireballs when I've got protection from magic cast on me. Also there doesn't seem to be much point to using non-detection when it doesn't work with invisibility spells. One thing that annoys me about the tactics mod is that the mages are easily twice as powerful but you don't get any more experience for killing them.
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]"through the buffed liches with the "imp caster, imp. ud" mods who will need some cheese to go all way down, to the player-controlled sorceress with vecna, who won't fall for anything."
Are those the liches from tactics. Unless you're talking about something a little harder than the tactics liches I don't understand the challenge. Yeah, they're a little hard with a full skeleton escort (especially when you have a level 9/9, c/r and a sorceror with nothing better than breach) but once you get them by themselves they're no problem.[/QUOTE]
I would *love* that you told me how you kill them with those two characters, without using pro-magic scrolls.
Are those the liches from tactics. Unless you're talking about something a little harder than the tactics liches I don't understand the challenge. Yeah, they're a little hard with a full skeleton escort (especially when you have a level 9/9, c/r and a sorceror with nothing better than breach) but once you get them by themselves they're no problem.[/QUOTE]
I would *love* that you told me how you kill them with those two characters, without using pro-magic scrolls.
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Luis Antonio
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snoopyofour
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No no, what I was implying is that those two characters were completely useless. Ok, my team setup involves my level 20 barbarian (I'm still trying to get levels with him) and level 9 sorceror, c/r, and f/t. I'm thinking that placing my barbarian in first slot was a bad idea because now the whole game is tailored to his lvl. So basically what I'm saying is that I beat those liches with the barbarian alone. All you do is tease out the skeletons and mummies. Kill them, rest and then go back and fight the lich. Mainly you just hit him a couple of times, he'll throw pmw, you wait (with deathward he can't really do any substantial damage) drink potions when you need to, whenever he looks like he's throwing timestop, duck behind something. Basically you just play it by ear until you think he's out of pmw and then use two whirlwind attacks. In my opinion the saquain priestess with the cloak of mirroring was a hundred times more difficult than any lich I've faced. That minor avator with imprisonment as an innate ability drove me nuts. But by then I was higher level and finished her off with a smite followed by a greater whirlwind. As a side note, oh my god! this katana I got from Kouraison is rediculous. I can't believe how good this weapon is.
Thrifalas, ok in all honesty, that idea for making your mislead illusion invisible is brilliant. That would probably be the end of my barbarian, but you should post that stuff over here. We've spammed up that other thread enough and who knows, maybe there's someone who is handy with an inquisitor who would be able to counter that.
Thrifalas, ok in all honesty, that idea for making your mislead illusion invisible is brilliant. That would probably be the end of my barbarian, but you should post that stuff over here. We've spammed up that other thread enough and who knows, maybe there's someone who is handy with an inquisitor who would be able to counter that.
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=snoopyofour]No no, what I was implying is that those two characters were completely useless. Ok, my team setup involves my level 20 barbarian (I'm still trying to get levels with him) and level 9 sorceror, c/r, and f/t. I'm thinking that placing my barbarian in first slot was a bad idea because now the whole game is tailored to his lvl. So basically what I'm saying is that I beat those liches with the barbarian alone. All you do is tease out the skeletons and mummies. Kill them, rest and then go back and fight the lich. [/QUOTE]
If you sleep they're summoned again. And the lich detects you and draws your full party near via a teleportation spell, and your 9th level sorceror is dead after two rounds of spells.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]
Mainly you just hit him a couple of times, he'll throw pmw, you wait (with deathward he can't really do any substantial damage) drink potions when you need to, whenever he looks like he's throwing timestop, duck behind something. [/QUOTE]
That wont work. His time stop is no longer the hardest part of the fight once you're in tactics, and as soon as the time stop ends you'll be called to his side, and he'll murder you with a few triggered and scripted carefully chosen spells. You have to do better than that to fight liches and Kangaax in Tactics.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]
Basically you just play it by ear until you think he's out of pmw and then use two whirlwind attacks. In my opinion the saquain priestess with the cloak of mirroring was a hundred times more difficult than any lich I've faced. That minor avator with imprisonment as an innate ability drove me nuts.
But by then I was higher level and finished her off with a smite followed by a greater whirlwind. [/QUOTE]
Not in tactics, I'm afraid, cause he'd have scripted spells, and he would lauch protections repeatedly (even if its not Kangaax but a minor leech) and then, the more you attacked the less chance you have of survival. And imprisionment just rules aye?
[QUOTE=snoopyofour] maybe there's someone who is handy with an inquisitor who would be able to counter that.[/QUOTE]
Of course.
If you sleep they're summoned again. And the lich detects you and draws your full party near via a teleportation spell, and your 9th level sorceror is dead after two rounds of spells.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]
Mainly you just hit him a couple of times, he'll throw pmw, you wait (with deathward he can't really do any substantial damage) drink potions when you need to, whenever he looks like he's throwing timestop, duck behind something. [/QUOTE]
That wont work. His time stop is no longer the hardest part of the fight once you're in tactics, and as soon as the time stop ends you'll be called to his side, and he'll murder you with a few triggered and scripted carefully chosen spells. You have to do better than that to fight liches and Kangaax in Tactics.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]
Basically you just play it by ear until you think he's out of pmw and then use two whirlwind attacks. In my opinion the saquain priestess with the cloak of mirroring was a hundred times more difficult than any lich I've faced. That minor avator with imprisonment as an innate ability drove me nuts.
But by then I was higher level and finished her off with a smite followed by a greater whirlwind. [/QUOTE]
Not in tactics, I'm afraid, cause he'd have scripted spells, and he would lauch protections repeatedly (even if its not Kangaax but a minor leech) and then, the more you attacked the less chance you have of survival. And imprisionment just rules aye?
[QUOTE=snoopyofour] maybe there's someone who is handy with an inquisitor who would be able to counter that.[/QUOTE]
Of course.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Ok, my team setup involves my level 20 barbarian (I'm still trying to get levels with him) and level 9 sorceror, c/r, and f/t. I'm thinking that placing my barbarian in first slot was a bad idea because now the whole game is tailored to his lvl.[/QUOTE]
Importing a high-level character is only making a challenging mod much easier. The tactic mods automatically "tailors" your game to face the hardest possible enemies even if you don't have any character above level 10. I know that I had a hard time facing adamantine golems when I just came out of Chateau Irenicus.
As far as I'm aware, the only way to kill liches is either ruby ray or some other cheesy caster tactic as they're constantly protected with pro-mw, imp. inv and they're naturaly immune to non-magic weapons. pro-mw will not fall to breach as they're imp. invis and oh... seriously.
Besides, it seems like you tactic is flawed as he'll summon you right to his side if you try to leave, and have your seriously not met anyone with a pit fiend yet? Skeletons and mummies are gone with a sunray.
Importing a high-level character is only making a challenging mod much easier. The tactic mods automatically "tailors" your game to face the hardest possible enemies even if you don't have any character above level 10. I know that I had a hard time facing adamantine golems when I just came out of Chateau Irenicus.
As far as I'm aware, the only way to kill liches is either ruby ray or some other cheesy caster tactic as they're constantly protected with pro-mw, imp. inv and they're naturaly immune to non-magic weapons. pro-mw will not fall to breach as they're imp. invis and oh... seriously.
Besides, it seems like you tactic is flawed as he'll summon you right to his side if you try to leave, and have your seriously not met anyone with a pit fiend yet? Skeletons and mummies are gone with a sunray.
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snoopyofour
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Antonio, whether or not you think my tactics would work on liches is beside the point. The point is that they did work. I killed the elemental lich first (with minimal equipment), then both of the liches in umar hills and then went and slaughtered the two guarding Kangaxx's tomb.
"he'll murder you with a few triggered and scripted carefully chosen spells"
LOL, what!? Like those two horrid wiltings?! Funny, but I still had well over 100 hitpoints after he hit me with both of those and that was his chain contingency which was his only decent attack the entire fight. If any of them had imprisonment they never got a chance to use it. Only one lich I've faced has had a teleport spell and that was the elemental lich. He was a little tougher but I basically beat him the same way.
"As far as I'm aware, the only way to kill liches is either ruby ray or some other cheesy caster tactic as they're constantly protected with pro-mw, imp. inv and they're naturaly immune to non-magic weapons. pro-mw will not fall to breach as they're imp. invis and oh... seriously."
Thrifalas, you of all people should be able to appreciate some ingenuity. PMW only lasts four rounds, that's nothing in a big fight. Why are you so hungup on ruby ray. Besides, how are you thinking that you're going to have an 8th level spell right out of Irenicus' lab. None of the early quests seem at all managable for a lowlevel party. I'm curious to know how you beat an adamantite golem with level 9 characters, when there are precious few +3 weapons available so early in the game. Anyway, back to liches. You just have to survive while constantly laying a couple hits on him every few rounds. His attacks aren't really that dangerous, especially when a barbarian with boots of speed can sometimes simply run out of the area of a spell like horrid wilting after its struck him, even if it does hit it won't do that much damage. I honestly thought the first big troll battle was much more difficult.
"Importing a high-level character is only making a challenging mod much easier. The tactic mods automatically "tailors" your game to face the hardest possible enemies even if you don't have any character above level 10."
There's no way that's true. I faced a random encounter almost immediately after the slaver quest where a mage had a contingency fire 3 horrid wilitings at my party. There was no warning and no time to prepare and everyone but my barbarian died. Even if by some miracle your party managed to survive that it wouldn't live through the following onslaught of a party of equal size and double levels with much better equipment. Unless this mod requires you to sometimes run like a squirrel then its definetly at least partially tailored to level.
"Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopyofour
maybe there's someone who is handy with an inquisitor who would be able to counter that.
Of course."
Spare me your sarcasm Antonio.
"he'll murder you with a few triggered and scripted carefully chosen spells"
LOL, what!? Like those two horrid wiltings?! Funny, but I still had well over 100 hitpoints after he hit me with both of those and that was his chain contingency which was his only decent attack the entire fight. If any of them had imprisonment they never got a chance to use it. Only one lich I've faced has had a teleport spell and that was the elemental lich. He was a little tougher but I basically beat him the same way.
"As far as I'm aware, the only way to kill liches is either ruby ray or some other cheesy caster tactic as they're constantly protected with pro-mw, imp. inv and they're naturaly immune to non-magic weapons. pro-mw will not fall to breach as they're imp. invis and oh... seriously."
Thrifalas, you of all people should be able to appreciate some ingenuity. PMW only lasts four rounds, that's nothing in a big fight. Why are you so hungup on ruby ray. Besides, how are you thinking that you're going to have an 8th level spell right out of Irenicus' lab. None of the early quests seem at all managable for a lowlevel party. I'm curious to know how you beat an adamantite golem with level 9 characters, when there are precious few +3 weapons available so early in the game. Anyway, back to liches. You just have to survive while constantly laying a couple hits on him every few rounds. His attacks aren't really that dangerous, especially when a barbarian with boots of speed can sometimes simply run out of the area of a spell like horrid wilting after its struck him, even if it does hit it won't do that much damage. I honestly thought the first big troll battle was much more difficult.
"Importing a high-level character is only making a challenging mod much easier. The tactic mods automatically "tailors" your game to face the hardest possible enemies even if you don't have any character above level 10."
There's no way that's true. I faced a random encounter almost immediately after the slaver quest where a mage had a contingency fire 3 horrid wilitings at my party. There was no warning and no time to prepare and everyone but my barbarian died. Even if by some miracle your party managed to survive that it wouldn't live through the following onslaught of a party of equal size and double levels with much better equipment. Unless this mod requires you to sometimes run like a squirrel then its definetly at least partially tailored to level.
"Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopyofour
maybe there's someone who is handy with an inquisitor who would be able to counter that.
Of course."
Spare me your sarcasm Antonio.
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=snoopyofour]
"Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopyofour
maybe there's someone who is handy with an inquisitor who would be able to counter that.
Of course."
Spare me your sarcasm Antonio.[/QUOTE]
No, it was not sarcasm, it was agreement.
snoopyofour, really, I not only doubt your techniques wont work - I'm sure they dont work. But that's besides the point. I'm out of this discussion for good, and I hope you enjoy.
"Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopyofour
maybe there's someone who is handy with an inquisitor who would be able to counter that.
Of course."
Spare me your sarcasm Antonio.[/QUOTE]
No, it was not sarcasm, it was agreement.
snoopyofour, really, I not only doubt your techniques wont work - I'm sure they dont work. But that's besides the point. I'm out of this discussion for good, and I hope you enjoy.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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snoopyofour
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:laugh: "I'm going to take my ball and go play somewhere else"
Alright, suite yourself.
"I not only doubt your techniques wont work - I'm sure they dont work"
You were also sure that Nature's Beauty was insta-cast so forgive me if I take your assurances with a grain of salt, especially when I've already proved you wrong whether you believe me or not.
Alright, suite yourself.
"I not only doubt your techniques wont work - I'm sure they dont work"
You were also sure that Nature's Beauty was insta-cast so forgive me if I take your assurances with a grain of salt, especially when I've already proved you wrong whether you believe me or not.
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
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Luis Antonio
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snoopyofour
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Luis Antonio
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Oh why, yes I did, because I remembered that was possible, and I dont play druids often but then I read UU's cheeseguide after you've pissed the hell out of me implying things that you cant prove and I remembered from where it was possible. And yes, it is cheese, not cheating, and you're cheating just by having a level 20 character to start Baldur's Gate SoA. And yes, your character has very high resistances, and will achieve great battles easy, cause he can use HLA's, which are cheats in BGSoA just because they are meant to be used in ToB. But then, you're the self appointed master of the game. Oh no, I forgot, you just play the game with a 20th level character in the first place, instead of starting with a normal one. A 20th level character with 20% fire resistance if you passed the good test, or what if you were on the bad side? Dont stop there: You wouldnt cheese, you're using the most elemental kind of cheese, the "I have a leveled up character selected from character selection", the kind of cheese I dont use since I've played Baldur's gate 1 with a level 5 character from the start and I noticed it was damn boring.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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snoopyofour
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"And yes, it is cheese, not cheating, and you're cheating just by having a level 20 character to start Baldur's Gate SoA"
Oh my you're SOOOOO angry . But in addition to that you're also out of the loop. This little experiment is a challenge that Thrifalas gave to me that I would never beat advanced liches with any barbarian of any level (and I recall hearing you say something similiar so its no surprize that you're mad since I'm sticking it to you). I could have waited till my barbarian was 40th level and before doing this and still been well within the parameters of this little bet. Of course Thrifalas can renig and say "Oh I meant soloing with a barbarian from beginning to end" but I expect that he wont. Besides these liches can't get any harder. One of them cast 6 9th level spells at me which puts him very close if not at the experience cap. But no, I'm supposed to fight a mage twice my level with no decent weapons or abilities just because Antonio will cry if I don't. That's especially crass when mages have just about everything they need made immediately available to them in the most basic stores while fighters have to get out of spellhold to find anything decent. Why don't you stop whining and just face fact that even the best magic users in this game have weaknesses if you're able to exploit them, which I guess you aren't.
Oh and I guess I ought to remind you that every ninth level spell you've ever mentioned would be a cheat by you're criterion since mages can't get to level 18 in SoA. hmmmm, how's your foot taste?
Oh my you're SOOOOO angry
. But in addition to that you're also out of the loop. This little experiment is a challenge that Thrifalas gave to me that I would never beat advanced liches with any barbarian of any level (and I recall hearing you say something similiar so its no surprize that you're mad since I'm sticking it to you). I could have waited till my barbarian was 40th level and before doing this and still been well within the parameters of this little bet. Of course Thrifalas can renig and say "Oh I meant soloing with a barbarian from beginning to end" but I expect that he wont. Besides these liches can't get any harder. One of them cast 6 9th level spells at me which puts him very close if not at the experience cap. But no, I'm supposed to fight a mage twice my level with no decent weapons or abilities just because Antonio will cry if I don't. That's especially crass when mages have just about everything they need made immediately available to them in the most basic stores while fighters have to get out of spellhold to find anything decent. Why don't you stop whining and just face fact that even the best magic users in this game have weaknesses if you're able to exploit them, which I guess you aren't.Oh and I guess I ought to remind you that every ninth level spell you've ever mentioned would be a cheat by you're criterion since mages can't get to level 18 in SoA. hmmmm, how's your foot taste?
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=snoopyofour]
Oh my you're SOOOOO angry . But in addition to that you're also out of the loop. This little experiment is a challenge that Thrifalas gave to me that I would never beat advanced liches with any barbarian of any level (and I recall hearing you say something similiar so its no surprize that you're mad since I'm sticking it to you). I could have waited till my barbarian was 40th level and before doing this and still been well within the parameters of this little bet. Of course Thrifalas can renig and say "Oh I meant soloing with a barbarian from beginning to end" but I expect that he wont. Besides these liches can't get any harder. One of them cast 6 9th level spells at me which puts him very close if not at the experience cap. But no, I'm supposed to fight a mage twice my level with no decent weapons or abilities just because Antonio will cry if I don't. That's especially crass when mages have just about everything they need made immediately available to them in the most basic stores while fighters have to get out of spellhold to find anything decent. Why don't you stop whining and just face fact that even the best magic users in this game have weaknesses if you're able to exploit them, which I guess you aren't.[/QUOTE]
This discussion is futile, and yes, have your 40th level barbarian fight Kangaax, or the lich in the docks, or the lower lich that resides in the gates - you will be toast. You will be, no matter what, just because they're not meant to be killed by a fighter. The vanilla game gives you tons of chances to win just because they want that kids that dont want to think before playing use their hack'n slash parties with success. With a 40th level barbarian you will destroy enemies easier, but a well prepared mage with a single PFMW and stoneskin and time stop will destroy you. He doesnt need alacrity - by the time the time stop ends you're down to your knees.
Mages will defeat fighters because they can be set to be invincible. Fighters will have the same vulnerabilities no matter what, unless they're using potions, when they'll have just some extra resistances, or powers, and for a limited time.
With a mage you will not only be able to deliver mass destruction with simple or advanced spells (magic missile works wonders against fighters who cant protect themselves, summons will distract fighters, time stop will give me time to find you if you've hidden yourself and haste will allow me to run from you). Alas, you havent posted a single strategy that covers countermeasures against mages, you've just enraged, whirlwinded and waited on fights that if you wait you'll be either summoned near to the caster or have the caster in question reset after disappearing.
Face the facts, fighters rely on strenght, while mages rely on smarts. "The pen is mightier than the sword" is so true in this game.
Oh my you're SOOOOO angry
. But in addition to that you're also out of the loop. This little experiment is a challenge that Thrifalas gave to me that I would never beat advanced liches with any barbarian of any level (and I recall hearing you say something similiar so its no surprize that you're mad since I'm sticking it to you). I could have waited till my barbarian was 40th level and before doing this and still been well within the parameters of this little bet. Of course Thrifalas can renig and say "Oh I meant soloing with a barbarian from beginning to end" but I expect that he wont. Besides these liches can't get any harder. One of them cast 6 9th level spells at me which puts him very close if not at the experience cap. But no, I'm supposed to fight a mage twice my level with no decent weapons or abilities just because Antonio will cry if I don't. That's especially crass when mages have just about everything they need made immediately available to them in the most basic stores while fighters have to get out of spellhold to find anything decent. Why don't you stop whining and just face fact that even the best magic users in this game have weaknesses if you're able to exploit them, which I guess you aren't.[/QUOTE]This discussion is futile, and yes, have your 40th level barbarian fight Kangaax, or the lich in the docks, or the lower lich that resides in the gates - you will be toast. You will be, no matter what, just because they're not meant to be killed by a fighter. The vanilla game gives you tons of chances to win just because they want that kids that dont want to think before playing use their hack'n slash parties with success. With a 40th level barbarian you will destroy enemies easier, but a well prepared mage with a single PFMW and stoneskin and time stop will destroy you. He doesnt need alacrity - by the time the time stop ends you're down to your knees.
Mages will defeat fighters because they can be set to be invincible. Fighters will have the same vulnerabilities no matter what, unless they're using potions, when they'll have just some extra resistances, or powers, and for a limited time.
With a mage you will not only be able to deliver mass destruction with simple or advanced spells (magic missile works wonders against fighters who cant protect themselves, summons will distract fighters, time stop will give me time to find you if you've hidden yourself and haste will allow me to run from you). Alas, you havent posted a single strategy that covers countermeasures against mages, you've just enraged, whirlwinded and waited on fights that if you wait you'll be either summoned near to the caster or have the caster in question reset after disappearing.
Face the facts, fighters rely on strenght, while mages rely on smarts. "The pen is mightier than the sword" is so true in this game.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.