I'll reply to this later. Either by editing this post or by pm'ing you if the original poster or the mod's want this thread to remain on-topic (for I fear we're spamming this thread up, something I should've realised when I posted in the first place).
I'm off to a bbq right now, but I leave you with this: the problem is that a Barbarian relies too much on equipment, while a Mage can beat a Barbarian with its own strenght. Remember, every item which you mentioned can kill the mage, has its counteritem.
are summons any good?
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snoopyofour
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Antonio, cheese is lame. If I wanted to defy the intentions of the designers I would simply give myself 250% magic resistance. And why didn't you mention that you meant 7 spells with sequencers and the like, you can actually fire way more if you use all the sequencers. You made it sound like a constant state thing.
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
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Luis Antonio
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@Snoopy, fighters are lame. They cant cheese. I, as you, prefer not cheesing (I hope you're not a cheezer). Anyway, the point in that whole thing is: Mages will bust your fighters, yes, they will, this has been discussed thousands of times by thousands of people in thousands of boards and games and even has been discussed by the creators of the game, who nerfed a bit of the effects in the patches. Now, my point is and always was that mages destroy fighters cause they're more VERSATILE. Nothing else. I'm not on a crusade against fighters, I'm just trying to show you that due to the versatile nature of the mages they will bust any other character, and wipe the floor with them, and that despite the fact that your character is strong as a barbarian (my favourite fighting class also) and that he may use many many cheesy items (you despise cheese yet you use the infamous cloack of cheese) and anyway the mage will be able to counteratack, while the barbarian will be helpless against a minimally prepared mage, as Sytze stated:
[QUOTE=Sytze the Archer]You attack with Flail of Ages and Hindo’s Doom? I swallow a potion, clear the space between you and me, and cast PfMW –although the space doesn’t need to be that great, PfMW weapons is cast abnormally quick. You equip a normal sword? I cast Stoneskin. What then? Your Barb swings death air, his hits bounce off of the wizard's spells harmlessly. You have 90% magic resistance? I cast Lower Resistance. You have Cloak of Mirroring? Bring on the area spells and summons. I am out of damaging spells? Here comes Improved Haste, Black Blade of Disaster, and Tenser.[/QUOTE]
The simple fact that fighters cant control magic as mages do is their worst problem as a class. Thieves are better tactically used than fighters due to backstab, yes, but against your character that'd be useless cause he is immune to backstab. The strenght and speed of the barbarian is useless if I'm invisible and you're not. The bow of the fighter is useless if I'm protected and you're not. This will go on endlessly, we will discuss this till the point of exaustion and mages will win.
Now I will spam this thread no longer. This discussion is disturbed, and yes, mages with summons would render any fighter dead too. A chained 3x deva from a mage/cleric or a simple wand of summoning, three layers of stoneskin can kill your fighter as easy as pie, and I'm off.
[QUOTE=Sytze the Archer]You attack with Flail of Ages and Hindo’s Doom? I swallow a potion, clear the space between you and me, and cast PfMW –although the space doesn’t need to be that great, PfMW weapons is cast abnormally quick. You equip a normal sword? I cast Stoneskin. What then? Your Barb swings death air, his hits bounce off of the wizard's spells harmlessly. You have 90% magic resistance? I cast Lower Resistance. You have Cloak of Mirroring? Bring on the area spells and summons. I am out of damaging spells? Here comes Improved Haste, Black Blade of Disaster, and Tenser.[/QUOTE]
The simple fact that fighters cant control magic as mages do is their worst problem as a class. Thieves are better tactically used than fighters due to backstab, yes, but against your character that'd be useless cause he is immune to backstab. The strenght and speed of the barbarian is useless if I'm invisible and you're not. The bow of the fighter is useless if I'm protected and you're not. This will go on endlessly, we will discuss this till the point of exaustion and mages will win.
Now I will spam this thread no longer. This discussion is disturbed, and yes, mages with summons would render any fighter dead too. A chained 3x deva from a mage/cleric or a simple wand of summoning, three layers of stoneskin can kill your fighter as easy as pie, and I'm off.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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snoopyofour
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"Snoopy, fighters are lame" + "I'm not on a crusade against fighters" = 
"you despise cheese yet you use the infamous cloack of cheese"
How is this cheese? Its an item put in the game by the designers for a purpose which it fulfills. If this is cheese then so is the robe of vecna and so is imprisonment. Or you could just admit that they're all just really powerful items (though that doesn't really redeem imprisonment). Summoning multiple devas/planetars is also cheese since it isn't meant to be done.
But its cool that you like barbarians.
Sytze, whatever you're going to tell me go ahead and put it on the Anti-Mage thread.
"you despise cheese yet you use the infamous cloack of cheese"
How is this cheese? Its an item put in the game by the designers for a purpose which it fulfills. If this is cheese then so is the robe of vecna and so is imprisonment. Or you could just admit that they're all just really powerful items (though that doesn't really redeem imprisonment). Summoning multiple devas/planetars is also cheese since it isn't meant to be done.
But its cool that you like barbarians.
Sytze, whatever you're going to tell me go ahead and put it on the Anti-Mage thread.
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Players decide what is cheese to them. The Robe of Vecna, Cloak of Mirroring, and Imprisonment are all cheese to me ....Unless I need to make allowances when playing with less than 4 characters (and my other strictures) - I want enjoyment more than frustration. You can only get 1 angel on the field at the time - although I think you can get more if you use the cheese of Project Image.
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snoopyofour
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[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Then how could you possibly think that a mage could cast seven spells per round? Even with vecna's robe and improved alacrity that's a stretch.[/QUOTE]
No... you can cast every - And I mean EVERY - spell that has casting time 5 or lower with robe, AoP and imp. alac if you are quick with the pause button. That means you can easily get off... I dunno... well, more than 20 spells on a single round. A maxlevel sorc stacked with time stop and imp. alac can practically waste his whole spellbook before the enemy get a chance to move, and thats some thousand damage and a dozen of instakills.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]You want to make some space? That'll be tough, my barbarian has an improved movement rate which coupled with boots of speed makes him the fastest character in the game (barring monks).[/QUOTE]
And that potion was a potion of invisibility (or spell), and you can't catch up with that you can't see.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Here's the deal, someone here tell me the name of a mage (and location if possible) that you think I would have no chance of beating with a barbarian (one on one if possible, I would like this little experiment to be uncluttered) and when I've done it maybe somebody will actually take my word on this.[/QUOTE]
Try the imp. ud, imp. caster-buffed Liches, and Kuroisan. They will probably prove a challenge to a solo barbarian. Otherwise, the hardest challenges in those mods are, imho, Eclipse and ToB-ending, but those are against more than a single enemy.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Why would a barbarian need to dispel a mislead when he can kill it in a round or less. You waste that much time just casting true sight.[/QUOTE]
Because the mage casts invisibility on the image. What's this? An invisible mage and an invisible clone - nothing to hit. Now the mage can punch your barbarian to death with a simple quaterstaff, or something like that.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]This mod was made for people who love mages they did nothing to improve the fighters except modify the AI a little. So if mages happen to be a little scarier (and I do mean "a little") in this mod its inconsequential[/QUOTE]
Those mods were made to give people challenges. After having soloed the vanilla game with everything possible, taking Firkraag with a solo lvl9 sorc and stuff like that, people grew tired.
So, to give people a challenge. What to do? What challenge could match the strenght of a well-played ken/mage?
A strong barbarian? That's a joke. You could give him 5000hp, 500% mr, a +40 2h-sword, -100 thac0, dispelling ability on his sword, unlimited HLAs of every kind and great AI, but people would still laugh at him and kill him in twenty different ways before growing tired.
Unless you give him some non-barbaric abilities, like true sight and immunity to time stop, a fighter will NEVER be a challenge to a good mage. No matter what insane thac0, damage, hp, attack/round and stuff like that. No way. Never.
Instead they made a patch with lots of mages, and multiple-enemy challenges. Enemies, like the improved liches who will only fall to casters with ruby way, triggers or other fine-tuned tactics. Stuff you don't know unless you've discussed and played the game for quite a while.
To put it simple, yes, the mod is based around casters. Because they're the only thing that is a challenge to an experienced player.
No... you can cast every - And I mean EVERY - spell that has casting time 5 or lower with robe, AoP and imp. alac if you are quick with the pause button. That means you can easily get off... I dunno... well, more than 20 spells on a single round. A maxlevel sorc stacked with time stop and imp. alac can practically waste his whole spellbook before the enemy get a chance to move, and thats some thousand damage and a dozen of instakills.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]You want to make some space? That'll be tough, my barbarian has an improved movement rate which coupled with boots of speed makes him the fastest character in the game (barring monks).[/QUOTE]
And that potion was a potion of invisibility (or spell), and you can't catch up with that you can't see.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Here's the deal, someone here tell me the name of a mage (and location if possible) that you think I would have no chance of beating with a barbarian (one on one if possible, I would like this little experiment to be uncluttered) and when I've done it maybe somebody will actually take my word on this.[/QUOTE]
Try the imp. ud, imp. caster-buffed Liches, and Kuroisan. They will probably prove a challenge to a solo barbarian. Otherwise, the hardest challenges in those mods are, imho, Eclipse and ToB-ending, but those are against more than a single enemy.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Why would a barbarian need to dispel a mislead when he can kill it in a round or less. You waste that much time just casting true sight.[/QUOTE]
Because the mage casts invisibility on the image. What's this? An invisible mage and an invisible clone - nothing to hit. Now the mage can punch your barbarian to death with a simple quaterstaff, or something like that.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]This mod was made for people who love mages they did nothing to improve the fighters except modify the AI a little. So if mages happen to be a little scarier (and I do mean "a little") in this mod its inconsequential[/QUOTE]
Those mods were made to give people challenges. After having soloed the vanilla game with everything possible, taking Firkraag with a solo lvl9 sorc and stuff like that, people grew tired.
So, to give people a challenge. What to do? What challenge could match the strenght of a well-played ken/mage?
A strong barbarian? That's a joke. You could give him 5000hp, 500% mr, a +40 2h-sword, -100 thac0, dispelling ability on his sword, unlimited HLAs of every kind and great AI, but people would still laugh at him and kill him in twenty different ways before growing tired.
Unless you give him some non-barbaric abilities, like true sight and immunity to time stop, a fighter will NEVER be a challenge to a good mage. No matter what insane thac0, damage, hp, attack/round and stuff like that. No way. Never.
Instead they made a patch with lots of mages, and multiple-enemy challenges. Enemies, like the improved liches who will only fall to casters with ruby way, triggers or other fine-tuned tactics. Stuff you don't know unless you've discussed and played the game for quite a while.
To put it simple, yes, the mod is based around casters. Because they're the only thing that is a challenge to an experienced player.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]I don't use the cloak of mirroring anyway, I like to be able to see what my character is doing.[/QUOTE]There's a patch that fixes that at http://www.sorcerers.net
She says: Lou, it's the Beginning of a Great Adventure
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snoopyofour
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=Thrifalas]Come on. Tell me how you killed him with a barbarian. I'm dying to know.[/QUOTE]
That makes two of us. He's nearly undestroyable, and the acidic backlash will kill any barbarian who venture near him, unless this barbarian has extremely high acid resistance, which is impossible by non cheated ways.
That makes two of us. He's nearly undestroyable, and the acidic backlash will kill any barbarian who venture near him, unless this barbarian has extremely high acid resistance, which is impossible by non cheated ways.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]That makes two of us. He's nearly undestroyable, and the acidic backlash will kill any barbarian who venture near him, unless this barbarian has extremely high acid resistance, which is impossible by non cheated ways.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention his magic defenses that's undropable by a barbarian. That guy is meant to be a challenge to even the most skilled players as you need outstanding knowledge of the game in order to bypass his defenses.
I don't see how a skilled player would take him down with a barbarian. And I definately have a hard time believeing someone who has only finished the games two times taking him with one.
Especially when he's not saying a single thing beside "he's dead". Unless you can describe at least what tactic you used, I have a *very* hard time believeing you. Same thing with improved liches and undeads.
Not to mention his magic defenses that's undropable by a barbarian. That guy is meant to be a challenge to even the most skilled players as you need outstanding knowledge of the game in order to bypass his defenses.
I don't see how a skilled player would take him down with a barbarian. And I definately have a hard time believeing someone who has only finished the games two times taking him with one.
Especially when he's not saying a single thing beside "he's dead". Unless you can describe at least what tactic you used, I have a *very* hard time believeing you. Same thing with improved liches and undeads.
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snoopyofour
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Its really easy, he doesn't have any divination spells. I fought against him a couple times and died before I realized what was going on. You fight with him a little just to make him put up his defenses. Ok, then when he's about to kill you drink a potion (you'll need a few to do this fight). His important defenses go down in a few rounds, hit him with a critical strike (if you're lucky you can do this twice) he'll cast pmw, you repeat. Eventually he says something like "this just hasn't been a good day" and thats the cue that he's out of pmw spells. Then you fight with him for a bit (you have to fairly regularly take breaks with potions since he casts stoneskin so often AND has it set as a contingency) but eventually you get him down to just a straight slug-it-out fight which a barbarian has no trouble winning.
Also having that helmet that allows you to cast simulcrum is useful. If I had to do it again I would have played that alot better. I would have gone invisible, waited for his couple of pmw's to go down, then cast simulcrum and hit him with smite, then while he is stunned up against a wall from smite I'd have my other half do a whirlwind. When the original smite wears off I'd have the duplicate and I switch roles until he is dead. When you consider that they both also have harden its really not that bad of a fight. I actually beat it my fourth try.
Also, acid backlash wasn't really that big a deal. It caused me to have to use a few more potions than I would have had to use otherwise but thats all.
Also having that helmet that allows you to cast simulcrum is useful. If I had to do it again I would have played that alot better. I would have gone invisible, waited for his couple of pmw's to go down, then cast simulcrum and hit him with smite, then while he is stunned up against a wall from smite I'd have my other half do a whirlwind. When the original smite wears off I'd have the duplicate and I switch roles until he is dead. When you consider that they both also have harden its really not that bad of a fight. I actually beat it my fourth try.
Also, acid backlash wasn't really that big a deal. It caused me to have to use a few more potions than I would have had to use otherwise but thats all.
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
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Luis Antonio
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snoopyofour
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"Kuroisan disappears after a while if he dont sees party members"
No he didn't. And if he did it would completely invalidate his purpose, you wouldn't have to fight him at all to keep Celestial fury. Just turn invisible and he'll leave and then you're done with the hack.
"Also he has four scrolls of true sight, that he uses between his scripted spells"
No he didn't.
"And he regenerates VERY fast."
It doesn't matter, the attack that kills him is over in one round.
"And dispells your protection from acid if you're using scrolls."
Wouldn't know, I didn't use any pro. acid scrolls.
No he didn't. And if he did it would completely invalidate his purpose, you wouldn't have to fight him at all to keep Celestial fury. Just turn invisible and he'll leave and then you're done with the hack.
"Also he has four scrolls of true sight, that he uses between his scripted spells"
No he didn't.
"And he regenerates VERY fast."
It doesn't matter, the attack that kills him is over in one round.
"And dispells your protection from acid if you're using scrolls."
Wouldn't know, I didn't use any pro. acid scrolls.
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
cheese........or is it?
i'm new to this forum but i have been reading this thread for awhile. i play an unmodded game (yeah so what if i'm 5 yrs behind...it's still fun ). snoop you might be confrontational and a little arguemental (heavy on the mental ) i too am sooooo tired of hearing about how absolutely fabulous spellcasters are. so i did a little research and found my own little cheese item that you can use against spellcasters. if you can pull it out of the unmodded game is it anymore cheesy than anything a spellcaster can use? i found a sword i could create using the console with "create item" i can give you the item code if you want. this sword gives 100% magic immunity, improved haste, and hits at about 1000hps a whack, plus some other great modifiers. i started a game with a dwarf barbarian equiped him with this sword (long sword) decided to create only one so as not to be too cheesy and have went thru the game on core rules and i'm up to the drow city equiping him with any thing else you would in the course of the game. also went through watcher's keep left on the fifth level to go to chapter 3. i haven't found anything yet that hasn't been a cake walk. kangaxx? walked in as a level 10 killed his first form then when he changed *smack* he went down so.....i reloaded waited for him to summon his pit fiend and do his magic thing . after time stop *smack* down went his friend and *smack* down he went again.
i don't have hi-speed at home so how about you (someone) like to try this sword out on a modded game and let me know how it does and i'll keep you posted on how my game progresses?
i'm new to this forum but i have been reading this thread for awhile. i play an unmodded game (yeah so what if i'm 5 yrs behind...it's still fun
). snoop you might be confrontational and a little arguemental (heavy on the mental ) i too am sooooo tired of hearing about how absolutely fabulous spellcasters are. so i did a little research and found my own little cheese item that you can use against spellcasters. if you can pull it out of the unmodded game is it anymore cheesy than anything a spellcaster can use? i found a sword i could create using the console with "create item" i can give you the item code if you want. this sword gives 100% magic immunity, improved haste, and hits at about 1000hps a whack, plus some other great modifiers. i started a game with a dwarf barbarian equiped him with this sword (long sword) decided to create only one so as not to be too cheesy and have went thru the game on core rules and i'm up to the drow city equiping him with any thing else you would in the course of the game. also went through watcher's keep left on the fifth level to go to chapter 3. i haven't found anything yet that hasn't been a cake walk. kangaxx? walked in as a level 10 killed his first form then when he changed *smack* he went down so.....i reloaded waited for him to summon his pit fiend and do his magic thing . after time stop *smack* down went his friend and *smack* down he went again.i don't have hi-speed at home so how about you (someone) like to try this sword out on a modded game and let me know how it does and i'll keep you posted on how my game progresses?
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Crenshinibon
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It's not a cheese. It is a cheat. This item is not really legit as you can't find it within the normal game, the main quest or any of the side quests.
It all depends on what item combinations you use.
Even if you had two of those swords, I bet I could still whipe the floor with you, using a spell caster. XD
Seriously, cheating is not cool. The whole BG Saga is a masterpiece and I believe an experience such as this should use cheats for it ruins the whole enjoyment.
To the topic: Although the planetar and the deva are very similar, for mages, the Planetar is like a fighter and a cleric in one. In the end game, it's almost better than having three members or multi/dual classing.
It all depends on what item combinations you use.
Even if you had two of those swords, I bet I could still whipe the floor with you, using a spell caster. XD
Seriously, cheating is not cool. The whole BG Saga is a masterpiece and I believe an experience such as this should use cheats for it ruins the whole enjoyment.
To the topic: Although the planetar and the deva are very similar, for mages, the Planetar is like a fighter and a cleric in one. In the end game, it's almost better than having three members or multi/dual classing.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
First two things: thank you for pointing out the difference between a cheat and cheese, however this may be a very fine line that i'll get to in a minute. Secondly i have to correct my prievous post, it was the city gate lich that i described when i was at lvl 10. Being wary of the dreaded kangaxx i waited much longer but the results were exactly the same and thats why i got the two confused. I don't like to split hairs but in this case i feel that i must. I believe that we have to compare apples to apples so to speak. If you bought the game with out the bonus cd's you can't get the cloak of Venca among other things. So lets throw out the bonus items and the sword in an un-modded game and just equip mages and barbarians with what's there. I have found out is if the barbarian has the boots of speed and depending on how close the mage is i have found that 90% of the time the mage is dead and i'm watching the contingicy going off on a corpse. The other 10% of the time i take the time to use rage and whack away until the mages spells are over, lather, rinse, repeat. Now that's apples to apples let's try oranges to oranges a mage can get the bonus items and the barbarian goes to ar 2700 kills the monster and gets the sword. So far in my game i've just killed bodi and getting ready to go back to the elves. and again it's a cake walk. I have just stood there and taken everything any mage, lich, demi-lich and beholder has thrown at me (sometimes multiple enemies) and they either ran out of spells or i just got tired of standing there then *smack* down they went. The most damage i've taken is from fire, ice, etc., and some monsters have hit me for a max of about 20 hps. With the ring of gaxx and axe of unyielding i haven't had to use a healing potion or used rage in ages I used the cloak of the sewers once just to see if it still worked. Soooooo i really dont't think (unless you have some different spells than what's in the game), you could win even if i use just one sword. Now i will concede my knowledge of spells and such to you, but i do know my barbarian and all things being equal, my barbarian would win.
Now this was a fun thread! Old admittedly but fun to read nontheless. A good somewhat heated discussion is always entertaining.
But you shouldn't have bumped this Buster, especially not to say that fighters are stronger than mages. You'll get a thousand people telling you how wrong you are. I suppose I'm one of them.
So: You are wrong.
You want reasons? Well, for starters you've beaten non-modded AI mages with a specially created cheatweapon. That kinda makes whatever point you're trying to make seem irrellevant. And you could give your fighter any number of HP's, Magic Res and damage with his weapon: a mage will still kill you with a single imprisonment or go invisible with misled (with invisible misled clone as well) or shapechange into a mindflayer for int. drain or all at once.
This has been discussed many times and tested just as many. The result has always been in favour of the mages. So if I came out as patronizing I'm sorry, that was not my intention.
Peace.
Old admittedly but fun to read nontheless. A good somewhat heated discussion is always entertaining. But you shouldn't have bumped this Buster, especially not to say that fighters are stronger than mages. You'll get a thousand people telling you how wrong you are. I suppose I'm one of them.
So: You are wrong.
You want reasons? Well, for starters you've beaten non-modded AI mages with a specially created cheatweapon. That kinda makes whatever point you're trying to make seem irrellevant. And you could give your fighter any number of HP's, Magic Res and damage with his weapon: a mage will still kill you with a single imprisonment or go invisible with misled (with invisible misled clone as well) or shapechange into a mindflayer for int. drain or all at once.
This has been discussed many times and tested just as many. The result has always been in favour of the mages. So if I came out as patronizing I'm sorry, that was not my intention.
Peace.
Plans within plans...
@ Pe ell, no no your not being patronizing i enjoyed your post. I apologize if i sounded mad......well ok in my first post i was ticked and hopefully the post explained why and yes this is beating a dead horse so to speak, i guess it depends on the perspective and spellcasters and fighters will always be on the opposite ends of the spectrum.
I have played all the spellcasting (mage/cleric/druid) dualled and otherwise and found it at best......tedious. I love a good strategy game but at every battle? I know that this is a personal preference but I like faster action (and less strategy:laugh: ).
My main point in my last post was fair comparison, non-cheese to non-cheese, cheese to cheese, cheat to cheat. I will still stand by my statement of the difference between cheese and cheat is a very fine line. i find it interesting that when a fighter uses a high MR item (like the cloak of "cheese" [mirroring]) a lot of spellcast players (i have some in mind) will call it a cheat smothered with extra cheese, but when they can cast 7 spells instantly it's just cheese-lite and you can use it or not. Hope you get my point.
As far as being wrong , have been and will be on somethings, honestly while enraged imprisonment, maze, symbol and death spells just haven't affected my non-cheated barbarian. Maybe some other MR kicks in I don't know. However invisiblity and mind flayers are a big problem. With mind flayers you have to have alot of INT and kill them before they kill you. With invisiblity the best i can do so far is to use an area assault (cone of cold, fire ball, firey oil) and hope my prot/hps are better than the enemy's prot/hps which prompts a question - with the staff of magi when you cast do you have to re-equip after? i can't remember.
To put the proof in the pudding i started a new barbarian game last night and will keep notes on my progression so when someone asks how i did something i can remeber in some detail and will play the game with and without the bonus items.
Once again thanks for the post Pe ell
I have played all the spellcasting (mage/cleric/druid) dualled and otherwise and found it at best......tedious. I love a good strategy game but at every battle? I know that this is a personal preference but I like faster action (and less strategy:laugh: ).
My main point in my last post was fair comparison, non-cheese to non-cheese, cheese to cheese, cheat to cheat. I will still stand by my statement of the difference between cheese and cheat is a very fine line. i find it interesting that when a fighter uses a high MR item (like the cloak of "cheese" [mirroring]) a lot of spellcast players (i have some in mind) will call it a cheat smothered with extra cheese, but when they can cast 7 spells instantly it's just cheese-lite and you can use it or not. Hope you get my point.
As far as being wrong
, have been and will be on somethings, honestly while enraged imprisonment, maze, symbol and death spells just haven't affected my non-cheated barbarian. Maybe some other MR kicks in I don't know. However invisiblity and mind flayers are a big problem. With mind flayers you have to have alot of INT and kill them before they kill you. With invisiblity the best i can do so far is to use an area assault (cone of cold, fire ball, firey oil) and hope my prot/hps are better than the enemy's prot/hps which prompts a question - with the staff of magi when you cast do you have to re-equip after? i can't remember.To put the proof in the pudding i started a new barbarian game last night and will keep notes on my progression so when someone asks how i did something i can remeber in some detail and will play the game with and without the bonus items.
Once again thanks for the post Pe ell