Offical Diablerie vs Underworld's version?

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:45 pm

Appoligies if this is a dumb question.

I asked and got an answer I wasn't sure about, so here goes;

What is the offical VtM version, what is the difference between drinking the Blood of a living Elder/Antediluvian (say a Gen 10 drinking the blood of a Gen 5) versues a dead one?
How is it that you only gain the power of the Elder in offical VtM (if I understand correctly) if he is dead and not while he is alive as in the example of Underworld Evolution?

Thanks.

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:04 pm

I am not versed in the PnP rules of The Masquerade, but I think I can take a stab at this.

what is the difference between drinking the Blood of a living Elder/Antediluvian (say a Gen 10 drinking the blood of a Gen 5) versues a dead one?
How is it that you only gain the power of the Elder in offical VtM (if I understand correctly) if he is dead and not while he is alive as in the example of Underworld Evolution?

First of all, the terms "living" and "dead" don't really apply to undead creatures. I think what you mean is awake and slumbering. As for diablery, there would be no difference if you diablerized an awakened Antedilluvian versus one that slumbers. Either way, you would gain all of their knowledge and power. The reason that the vampires in The Masquerade want to diablerize the ones that are slumbering is because, once awakaned, the Antedilluvians would be unstoppable. Their powers are godlike - for all extents and purposes, immeasureable. Try to diablerize a fully awakened Antedilluvian and you'd be dead long before you got close enough to sink your fangs in.

Furthermore, those Antediluvians that have not already been diablerized have been slumbering for a long, loooooong time. Once awakened, it's likely they would immediately go into Frenzy and begin devouring everything in their path. With powers as vast as theirs, and hunger as terrible, the world would not last very long in their wake. You do NOT want to awaken an Antedilluvian.

It's not the same as the elder vampires portrayed in the Underworld movies. In the first movie, Viktor appears relatively weak when he first awakens. Antedilluvians in the World of Darkness probably wouldn't suffer this weakness. If anything, Frenzy would make them even more powerful.

That's my take on it. I'm sure if I'm mistaken in any of this, one of the PnP players on this forum will be along soon to correct me. Most of what I've said here is based on what I've read in their posts, however, so it should be fairly accurate unless I've misunderstood them.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:15 am

Thanks for the info.

"First of all, the terms "living" and "dead" don't really apply to undead creatures"

Hehe, true enough.

"As for diablery, there would be no difference"

Ahh, see that is was I thought but I was told different and I hope others can shed more light on it.

The reference I was thinking of was in Evolution where Selene drinks the blood of the Brujah (my speculation) Antedilluvian (mentioned as the father of the clan).

Another thing I hope someone would mention, how quickly this power would become contolable/useable by the drinker?
Could it take a hours, days, weeks, months or years?

"Once awakened, it's likely they would immediately go into Frenzy"

You know now that you mention that, I wonder if it was Evolution's way of dealing with Frenzy when they woke Victor by filling him up with blood before hand?

Thanks for any help.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:38 am

Well, the first thing of note is... Drinking blood does not equate to Diablerie. Once you have drained your vessel of blood, you need to contiue to feed and consume the targets very soul, thus drawing all their power and knowladge into yourself. Obviously, this kills the person you are performing this horrid act upon and damms them for all eternity to dwell inside you as part of you with no hope of the afterlife.

Secondly, when it comes to antedelluvians, yes, the only difference bewteen killing a sleeping one and an awake one is that if you do it while they are asleep, there is a PAPER THIN chance you will live through the attempt. When they are awake, that chance is removed.

As for how long the power takes to become usable, the usual tact is "Right away in a 'quickening' style explosion". A vampire of low will power and weak blood who trys to drain the soul of a much more powerful and potent vampire may find that this quickening ends with them being the one who is dead and the more powerful vampire now living inside their body, but thats another story.

Underworlds vampire elders, from what little I've allowed myself to remember or my doctor can dredge up through hours of hypno therapy, had some kind of machine that pumps blood right into the vampire themselves? Right? That's not a bad way to stave off the hunger frenzy of an elder vampire, thou it's likley that they would frenzy anyway, push the machine aside and go hunting fresh blood. The usual corse of action is to find a nice human cult who will stupidly stand around and be drunk by the frenzying master. Sadly, this isn't the only reason some Elders pop out of the coffin insane... Some have simply lost their grip on sanity and humanity after such an extended period of torpor, and some are the victims of mistakes made by Neonates who try and wake them too early... An act that causes most vampires to frenzy, kill the person trying to wake them, and go back to bed. Ahhh, the good life!

But, yes, offical Diablerie is a twisted, horrid thing that creates a pleasure so powerful that many who perform it become addicted and quickly turn them into insane, rampaging, blood hungry beasts. Such is unlife I spose.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:58 pm

So basiclly you get no power from drinking blood only consuming the soul, bummer.

Well my orginal thought was if you did recieve the power from drinking the blood of an Elder it could explain what was happening in Bloodlines.

We see this Elder with Jack, whether Devs intend it to be Caine or not, if this was all his plan, as Jack states in the end movie, "It happened just like you said", could it have been this guy that some how embraced us or he could have fed us to makes us more powerful and planted the other Sap/Sire to take the fall.

O'well, another theory blow out of the water.

Oh, why is Feeding on Vamps forbiden?
Is it too temping to suck out their soul. :devil:

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:42 pm

[QUOTE=Acleacius]
Oh, why is Feeding on Vamps forbiden?
Is it too temping to suck out their soul. :devil:[/QUOTE]

Do you mean diablery, or just ordinary feeding? The taboo on diablery should be self explanatory. That's like asking why rape and murder are illegal. Do unto others and all that....

Now, if you wanted to simply feed on your fellow Kindred without killing or diablerizing them, I think would depend on whether your target was willing or not. I'm sure that forcibly sucking the blood out of an unwilling Kindred is something that would not be tolerated.

You also have to consider the effect of drinking a vampire's blood. Drink from the same one three times and you succumb to the Blood Bond. You would be forever bound, a loving and devoted slave to their will. As I understand it, some vampire lovers will occasionally feed on each other in this manner, each one becoming Blood Bonded to the other. I would think that most would be rather hesitant to do this, for once done, the bond cannot be undone.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:38 pm

"Do you mean diablery, or just ordinary feeding?"

This time I was clear, correct and awake, why would you think I meant diablery?

Well either way, if I want to force feed and suck the blood of an enemy whether it is Vamp or Kine, yet in the game you can't seem to feed from kindred?
IIR it is even mentioned in the game by LaCroix when explaining some rules.

I sure the hell didn't get a prompt to continue sucking out the enemys Soul, though that would have been halarious. :laugh:

Also back to the diablery, so the theroy/rules in the CRPG or the PnP RPG is that diablery of your Enemies is a some violation?
As I would become addicted to diablery?

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:03 am

The origin of the law against Diablerie seem simple, but they are rooted in power games as all things in vampire are. Obviously, killing another Vampire is against the law, so by extention the act of Diablerie (The Anathama) is out of the question... But what happens when the Prince says:

"The Sabbat are attacking. Slay them all!"?

Why can't I suck down the soul of a few Sabbat, becoming stronger and more powerful and better help to the Cammerilla? The song and dance goes a little something... Like this. Music please!

Most Camerilla vampire are NOT taught how to perform the Anathama. It's just that simple, they don't even know it exists. Why would Elder Vampires teach the opressed masses the most convient and powerful way to destory them? They just wouldn't, it's too much of a risk! Those who DO find out... By talking to Non Camerilla vampires, looking in Tremere books or having trusting sires, are mistrusted, and with good reason! They now know how to break the surley bonds of servitude the Elders have put them under and rise in power up the ranks of Caines bloodline, taking the power of everyone they meet with them... And the temptation to do so must be STAGGERING!! If I told you that you could become stronger then any man, faster then any man and smarter then any man and all you had to do was kill a vicious dictator with no heart and a growing hatred for the seething masses of humanity he ruled over... Well it's tempting isn't it?

Now imagine that it was ADDICTIVE as well. Imagine that you put a bullet in this evil villian, and the rush of power from his death caused a sensation more potent then all the sex and drugs in the world. Would you want to do it again and become even more powerful and long lived in the process? Hell yes thank you!! I'll take two! Elders know and fear this reaction, and rightfuly so... Because it's their blood that everyone would be interested in.

Secondly, the Anathama is a brutal blow to your humanity. Willingly damming a person to eternal prision in the blackness of the abyss, welled up inside your body, drained like a battery is an instant loss of a point of Humanity and a check to see if you lose another. Diabolists don't last long in this regard... They generaly give up on humanity and follow another path of understanding, or become insane, rampaging beasts after their fifth kill or so. The end result is the same, something has to be done about them before you become next on the menu... Oohhh yes, it's not just Elders that are in danger. The rush is the same if or not they gain any power from the blood, so many Diabolists drink other kindred dry just for the fun of it.

Lastly is blood shared disease and insanity. Like sex, drinking other vampires souls into yourself can be fun and pleasureable, but can also have wicked side effects. Draining a Malkavian to death is a sure fire way to end up just as crazy as they were... Oh pardon me, 'Enlightened'... *Scoff*. You took that persons soul into you, and all that crazy has to go somewhere. Similarly, vampires who carry disease like Nossies are sure to pass that on, and diseases that are borne on vampire blood wont just 'go away with bed rest', and there is no vampire asprin. The Sabbat are the exception to this rule. They induldge in twisted blood orgies and dark rituals, spreading disease, blood bonds and sickenesses of the mind amoung each other rampently. They not only scation Diablerie, they encourage it, claiming it is the path to take back the power of the Elders for the new generation... Whatever helps them sleep during the day...

As for the Stigma of drinking another Vampires blood.

1) It's addictive.
2) It creates a near unbreakable bond of slavery.
3) It can lead to Diablerie (See above).
4) It's downright creepy.

If you can find a way to get blood from a willing Kindred and drink it, the end result will only be a Blood Bond. If you take it unwillingly and don't kill them, the end result, again, will be a Blood Bond. From my point of view in Vampire games it's: "Why would I stop you? Help yourself to a glass". If you want to enslave yourself to me, why would I want to say no?... Unless you're Tremere, in which case you are likley making som strange ritual to kill me... GET OUT OF MY HOUSE!!

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:11 pm

Enlightening, as always, pennypincher. Excellent information. I should probably just take a back seat and let you answer these kinds of posts from now on.

This got me thinking. When LaCroix sends you, a neonate, off to take on an entire Sabbat coven all by yourself, he explains to you what diablery is but not how to perform it. Wise of him to keep that tidbit from you, if he was even privy to it himself. Still... What if you figured it out?

Just imagine the path you could have followed... Take what LaCroix told you and diablerize Andrei. Then, what the hell, do the same to LaCroix. He deserves it. He used you the whole game, then betrayed you when it was convenient to do so. And why stop there? It would be nice to have his Sheriff's strength. By now you're so addicted you can't help yourself. Most of the Anarchs probably wouldn't be strong enough to stand up to you, especially not after consuming three of the most powerful LA Kindred. The sense of imminent doom the local Kindred have been experiencing becomes fully justified as you devour them all to feed your new addiction....

Ahhh... It could have been so... beautiful....

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:02 pm

Ohhh, good one!

I suspect the prince sent you out to kill the Sabbat with the express understanding that you would never return from such a mission, thinking that he would likley be rid of two problems at once. Also, open war with the Sabbat is an excellent reason to call in Cammerilla re-enforcements, thus solidifying his hold over the city.

I dunno, maybe he just really thought you could pull it off... Nah!

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:30 am

Uggh, haven't been able to connect to GB for a couple of days.

Wow, yeah that is great info Pennypincher, you Rock, bro! :cheers:

I guess there is just no good explaination of how we get so strong.
I can only guess Troika decided to take a little liberty, being the last VtM game.

Yeah hell, I agree.
It's like Jack said he never expected you to make it back and that goes for every mission he sends you on, you are competly expendable.
Even if you go along with him, reaping all the rewards like Skyline and the extra cash and say you had no choice (he if he can lie, so can we.

) in allying with Ming.
He lies and says he was just trying to bring the Anarch's under control, while I guess it could be true from some point of view as with the sorcophous he was violating the most serious Camarilla laws, while executing others for much more minor offenses, ekkk sounds like our government. :shockandhorror:

I guess I better watch the leather movie, errr I mean Underworld again, I am sure I must have missed some skin, errr important parts.

Still would have been nice to explain it some how.

Btw how would our character have learned diablery?
Since we were spawned from an Anarch, it seems like it could be a powerful weapon of fear in the hands of the Anarchs against the Camarilla and from what little I know they certianly have the means to learn it, especially if there former Sabot in the Anarch ranks.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:17 am

Well, in the strictest sense, your character can't have learnt how, as nobody in the game teaches him how. I spose if there were periods where your character had time alone with others that we don't see it might have come up... But that is one VERY risky conversation topic. It would be like you and me sitting in a cafe having coffee and me suddenly asking you what the adress of town hall is and id you know how to make an Anthrax bomb.