2-character party, Saving Throw-problems

Eldariel · Post by **Eldariel** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:12 pm

Alright, so me and my friend are playing through the game with a 2-character party right now, him playing a Cleric/Ranger and me playing single-classed Swashbuckler and I've run into little problems with my Saving Throws. I'm maxed out on levels and am left with base:
Death: 9
Wand: 6
Petrification: 8
Breath: 12
Spells: 7

Now, we can use his protection-spells to help against whatever we face, of course, but combined with Dispel Magic and the fact that he presently wears Ring of Gaxx (we opted to avoid any and all cheats, so we lack duplicates of any Magical items), I'm left fearing even Yuan-Ti Mages as simple Confusion or Domination are the end of me and with the abundance of such spells in the game, it grows somewhat frustrating. Heck, even Mephits are dangerous as I basically can't dodge their breaths and might die to Hold Persons and whatnot. What could I do to protect myself from all that crap without having to rely on his Magic all the time? What items give either nice magic resistance or saving throw bonuses to a Swashbuckler?

EDIT: Oh, and we do have ToB installed, just still in SoA so I figured this would be the correct place to post the question.

JonIrenicus · Post by **JonIrenicus** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:37 pm

Few questions:

What is your level?
What items are you using?

Even with those base you can still have VERY good saving throws. I hope you got the human flesh quest done, that item will help you a lot.

PS did you get both of Gaxx's rings?

Miscreant · Post by **Miscreant** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:55 am

Just a humble inquiry, JonIrenicus:

Why would you even bother if you aren't going to read the posts to which you are replying?

Eldariel · Post by **Eldariel** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:28 am

[QUOTE=JonIrenicus]Few questions:

What is your level?
What items are you using?

Even with those base you can still have VERY good saving throws. I hope you got the human flesh quest done, that item will help you a lot.

PS did you get both of Gaxx's rings?[/QUOTE]

Level 23, we opted not to bend game rules at any point ergo only 1 Gaxx-ring and we chose to play good so we don't have Human Flesh-armour ^^' Perhaps I need to ask him for the Ring of Gaxx to bolster them up :S

I'm an Elf Swashbuckler with:
Hand 1: Adjantha, the Drinker
Alternative: Daystar
Hand 2: Sword of Balduran (with Dragonslayer in backpack)

Shadow Dragon Scale
Cloak of Sewers
Pale Green Ioun Stone
Ring of Earth Control
Ring of Fire Resistance
Boots of Speed

We're presently at the Underdark. I guess what I'm most interested in is, what kind of equipment set should I strive for to make up for Swashbuckler's horrible overall saves.

EDIT: Oh, I just found out today that we're playing without level cap. So much for the lack of cheats. Anyways, I'm level 27 now, which basically just means 'Use All Items'.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:58 am

The Cloak of Mirroring will save you against almost every offensive spell, while the longsword The Equalizer will keep your character from most, if not all, mind spells.

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:55 am

Wizards and Rogues are supposed to get their final saving throws at level 21, but unfortunately the saving throw table is capped at level 20, so mages' and thieves' saving throws tend to be lacking. Luckily, not all saves are equal, the only saves that count are those vs. spells and death in this order, the rest is used only very rarely. So your save vs. breath of 12 looks more crass than it is.

How about changing your armour for an unenchanted one, so you can wear a Ring (or Cloak) of Protection. You can improve your armour class by wearing bracers of defense instead. You should by now have the Ring and Cloak of Protection + 2. Later, when you get the [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/strategies/deckofmanythings.php"]Deck of Many Things[/url] from Watchers Keep, you can obtain the Ring of Protection +3. Since you have UAI, you can wear mages' robes in your armour slot for an aditionally impovement of your saving throws. They have a Robe of the Evil Archmagi for sale in Ust Natha for a +1 to all saves and +5% magic resistance.

You will soon find the Amulet of spell warding (save vs. spells+2). Later in ToB you can use the Amulet of the Seldarine (all saves+1, +10% magic resistance). If you can bear the looks of a helmet on your character you could use the helm of balduran (AC+1, all saves +1, +5 hitpoints) or the helm of defense (all saves+1, +20% resistance to fire, cold and electricity), until you get the lavender ioun stone in ToB (AC+1, save vs. death+4).
There are no weapons and shields in the game that grant boni to saving throws until ToB (Foebane+5: all saves+1; Shield of the Order: all saves+1) other than the Staff of the Magi (all saves+2), the Staff of Power (all saves+2), the Staff of the Woodlands+4 (AC+3, barkskin (all saves except vs. spell+1), among other benefits) and the Spear of the Unicorn+2 (save vs. death+3, immunity to charm and hold) but you seem to use rather two weapon style.
There are no items for your bracers' slot that give saving throw boni, none for your boots' slot and none for your belt slot, other than the Belt of Inertial Barrier, but as he improves only the save vs. breath it is pobably not really important for you.

You will probably not use Jaheiras Harper's Pin (save vs. spell+5, non detection, blocks magic missiles, 100% resistance to electricity), and neither Keldorns full plate (all saves+1, free action).

You could hoard scrolls of Spirit Armour (save vs. spells+3, base AC1) and Blur (all saves+1, AC+3) for special ocasions.

Best Regards,
Lark.

PS:
Concerning Magic Resistance: It is hard to achieve a high number here, especially without the Human Flesh armour.
Your Maximum would be 85% in ToB and 60% before Hell:
Armour: Robe of Vecna 10%, Robe of the good Archmagi 5% (The Human Flesh+5 would be best in this regard, but you excluded it already.)
Bracers: none
Helm: none
Necklace: Amuletof the Seldarine(ToB) or Kaligun's Amulet of Magic Resistance 10%
Ring 1: Ring of Gaxx 10%
Ring 2: „borrowed“ Symbol of Lathander 5% (what will your friend say?)
Cloak: none
Boots: none
Belt: none
Weapon + Shield: a combination of Purifier+5(ToB, in SoA Purifier+4 20%) 30% (you can obtain it only if you're LG (or your friend)), Flail of the Ages+5 5%(ToB), Shield of the Lost+2 5%
Hell Bonus: 10%
Machine of Lum the Mad: 5%

You could as well use Carsomyr. His bonus doesn't stack with other items, it does only stack with the inherent boni of Hell and the Machine of Lum the Mad.

Concerning immunities: You could use the Equalizer (immunity to charm and confusion, among other benefits) or the Shield of Harmony+2 (immunity to charm, confusion, domination and hold) for your shield slot. You could equip the Ring of Free Action and use a charge of the Greenstone Amulet as the situation warrants it. If you want to protect yourself against fear you can use the Dragonslayer+2 or scrolls. (You will probably not aquire Blackrazor or the Cloak of Bravery).

PPS:
I forgot to mention the Cloak of Displacement(saves vs. death, breath, wand+2, AC+4 vs. missiles)

[edit: minor corrections]

Eldariel · Post by **Eldariel** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:31 pm

Alright, thank you Sytze and Lark. Regarding Cloak of Mirroring, does it not help me against spells like Confusion, Domination and company? Also, how does it interact with innate abilities?

Ring of Free Action and the Equalizer seems like a good combination only leaving Death-magic, Domination and Poison to worry about. Hmm, btw, which effects use which saving throw? Poison, Death use Death-save, obviously, but what about Domination, Fear, Charm, Confusion, and such status-effects? Any effects I'm forgetting? Do they use Spell-saving throw even if coming from...say Myconids? Is Polymorph only basically relevant vs. Flesh to Stone?

Any ideas, how to close up death-effects once that pair is in place? I've found Death Ward extremely unreliable as chances are, opponents possessing death-effects also possess disenchant-effects and usually proceed to do it all under a Time Stop. Oh, and I'm going two-weapon fighting road so I don't think I'll be using anything two-handed, or a shield (seeing that I already spent 3 proficiency points on Two-Weapon Fighting and find it extremely useful with Swashbuckler's lack of attack count progression).

Thanks for your help thus far! Now I'm really regretting not picking a Halfling with their whatnot bonuses to all the relevant saves and all that... But I just prefer playing Elves :/

Nimiety · Post by **Nimiety** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:13 pm

First, I start off with a big +1 to Lark for the proper pluralization of "bonus" (and a hell of a great response).

Second, I believe that Dwarves and Gnomes get the best overall saves, if I recall correctly...

Third, out of curiosity, you've given the base saves, what are your actual (with modifiers) saves now? Are they much better?

Cheers,
N...

Eldariel · Post by **Eldariel** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:28 pm

[QUOTE=Nimiety]First, I start off with a big +1 to Lark for the proper pluralization of "bonus" (and a hell of a great response).

Second, I believe that Dwarves and Gnomes get the best overall saves, if I recall correctly...

Third, out of curiosity, you've given the base saves, what are your actual (with modifiers) saves now? Are they much better?

Cheers,
N...[/QUOTE]

My only equipment boosting Saving Throws is the Ring of Earth Control (yea, it does give the undocumented -1 all Saving Throws) giving me:
Death: 8
Wands: 5
Petrification: 7
Breath: 11
Spells: 6

As I put the Amulet of Spell Warding on over Amulet of Spell Resistance, I get Spells down to 4. I've now formulated some kind of a plan based on the answers here, I'll try and take the Amulet of Seldarine after SoA, and Helm of Defense along with Cloak of Mirroring and Ring of Free Action in the first possible opportunities, equip myself with the Equalizer, eventually get the Death-protection Ioun Stone getting my Death-save to at least 1, leaving only Fear and Domination as bad holes in my 'armour'. For record, my companion uses:
Helm of Balduran
Ring of Protection +2
Ring of Gaxx

so those are probably out of my grasp, unless we can come up with some way to keep his saving throws good while keeping mine up as well. He wears a Full Plate, so for him, the AC-loss for going Ring of Protection is much more minor than for me as there're no good +5 Full Plates anyways (besides the Drow-ones which just vaporize), while I'd have to go all the way back to Studded Leather to wear protective items, which is quite the contrast compared to Shadow Dragon Scale (especially since my character is a melee-character).

But can someone give me a short list of stuff Cloak of Mirroring does NOT affect? I've gotten some conflicting information regarding it and haven't gotten to try it in practice.

EDIT: Oh, and actually 'bonus' has a regular plural ^^ I know it's irregular as Latin-imported 'us'-ending words should assume the 'i'-plural like in Latin, but 'bonus' has been adapted so strongly that it has gotten an English plural instead

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:05 am

Hmm, btw, which effects use which saving throw?

Spells:
Most spells and spell-like effects (that warrant a save in the first place).

Death:
Some spells:
Stinking Cloud
Cloud Kill
Prismatic Spray (green ray)
Symbol: Death
Bigby's Clenched Fist
Bigby's Crushing Hand
Wail of the Banshee
Comet

Poison
Dolorous Decay
Symbol: Death
Storm of Vengeance (to avoid the poison part)

Some effects, most notably poison effects and vorpal effects (Silver Sword, Axe of Unyielding) demand for a save vs. death. Please note that some item descriptions are incomplete, self contradicting, misleading or simply wrong. For example: The Kuo Toa Bolts, despite being poisoned according to the despription, require a save vs. spell. The Paralytic Bolts do not demand for a save vs. paralysation , but for a save vs. spells.

Breath:
Only three spells:
Dragon's Breath (from your spellbook or a dragon's throat)

Summon Insects
Insect Plague (to avoid the panic)

Despite what the handbook says Creeping Doom requires no save vs. breath but vs. spell.

Apart from breath attacks, this saving throw is rare. Bolts of Lightning, Potions of Fire Breath and Oil of Fiery Burning use this saving throw.

Polymorph/Petrification:
Only two spells:
Polymorph Other
Prismatic Spray (blue ray)

Even Flesh to Stone does not use this saving throw, what an outrage!

You won't encounter too many basilisks in BGII, nor will you be shot at with Bolts of Polymorphing too many times. So you'll be fairly safe.

Wands:
There IS one spell, that uses the save vs. wands:
Prismatic Spray (indigo ray)

Apart from that curiosity, only wands use this save.

Best regards,
Lark.

My only equipment boosting Saving Throws is the Ring of Earth Control (yea, it does give the undocumented -1 all Saving Throws)[...]

I didn't mention it because the Baldurdash patch removes the hidden save bonus afaik.

[...]while I'd have to go all the way back to Studded Leather to wear protective items, which is quite the contrast compared to Shadow Dragon Scale[...]

Shadow Dragon Scale + bracers of your choice + ring of your choice (except a Ring of Protection) nets you: AC0, 50% resistance to acid, the benefits of your bracers and the benefits of your ring.

Robe of the Archmagi + Bracers AC3 + Ring of Protection+3 nets you: AC0, 5% magic resistance and all saves+4.

The question is now if you find a combination of armour, bracers and a ring that give you benefits you like more. There are however, no bracers that will give you a saving throw bonus. The diadvantages of my proposition are: You can't use the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation and you don't look as cool.

Eldariel · Post by **Eldariel** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:26 am

Thank you a ton, Lark. That pretty much answers all my questions. However, still about Cloak of Mirroring, where exactly is the limit? Does it only affect things that cause damage, or is it more indiscriminate tossing back all offensive spells? The description mentions Hold Person as something it does not affect, but would it affect...say Domination or Confusion? I take it wouldn't help against AoE-spells like Fireball or Abi-Dalzim's when not directly targeted at the Cloaked character?

Oh, and one more thing, what save does Psionic Blast use? It's probably unaffected by Cloak as it's Psionics, not Magic?

EDIT: +3 Ring is probably going to him once we get it. Also, I'll be picking up White Dragon Scale once we get to that point which gives me further -3 to AC, but yea, we've not installed all the Baldurdash fixes so the Earth Control -1 still applies. But yea, that's the only thing presently giving me Saving Throw-bonus, I really need more if I'm to survive. I've been thinking of getting the Lavender Ioun Stone, Amulet of Seldarine, Cloak of Mirroring, Ring of Free Action, Ring of Earth Control and then some. Meh, I don't know, perhaps I'll just have to ask for Ring of Gaxx.

JonIrenicus · Post by **JonIrenicus** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:18 am

[QUOTE=Miscreant]Just a humble inquiry, JonIrenicus:

Why would you even bother if you aren't going to read the posts to which you are replying?[/QUOTE]

Do you even realize how important items are in the game? And if you do, why even bother trolling my replys? Do you even play this game -,-

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:19 am

Disclaimer: In my game I use the SoA-version of the cloak of mirroring, so to be on the safe side, check my informations in your game if you have ToB installed. However, I don't expect Bioware to having closed all holes in the cloak's defense.

What does the Cloak of Mirroring protect against?
All direct damage spells
All death spells

The SoA version reflects the spells back at the caster, the ToB version deflects them.

There are however some exceptions and curiosities.
Spells that will bypass the cloak's protection:
Vampire Touch
Cloudkill
Death Fog
Fire Cloud
Bigby's Clenched Fist
Bigby's Crushing Hand

Summon Insects
Insect Plague
Creeping Doom
Earthquake
Holy/Unholy Word
Nature's Beauty
Implosion

Items that will ignore the cloak:
Necklace of Missiles
Ring of Energy
Ring of the Ram
Wand of Fire
Wand of Frost
Wand of Lightning
Wand of Magic Missiles
Wand of the Heavens
Wand of Cloudkill
Potion of Explosion
Potion of Fire Breath
Oil of Fiery Burning

I'm not sure if it is a coincidence that all items with damaging spell like capabilities, that existed in BGI can overcome the cloak's defense.

Concerning innate abilities and monster attacks, I would expect that they behave like the spells they mimic, the developers of the game will have worked with copy/paste a lot. but one can never be sure. The Lightning ability of the Cleric of Talos for example punches through the cloak.

There are some oddities as well: The Cloak of Mirroring will protect against the divine Symbol of Stun, but not against it's arcane version.

Best regards,
Lark.

PS:
Last but not least: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4565"]Fun with Cloaks[/url].

PPS:
I added Bigby's hand spells and Implosion to the list of spells that the cloak does not protect against.

The CoM will protect against some creatures' attacks, most notably:
Red Dragons' Breath
Green Dragons' Breath

[edit: typos]

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:48 am

Double post.

Miscreant · Post by **Miscreant** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:58 pm

[QUOTE=Eldariel](we opted to avoid any and all cheats, so we lack duplicates of any Magical items)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=JonIrenicus]PS did you get both of Gaxx's rings?[/QUOTE]

I apologize for not being clear enough in my original question. I just don't understand why you wouldn't read the question before replying. It really detracts from the relevance of your answer. Also, I don't know why you don't think I play the game, or what that has to do with my reply.

As for why I "even bother trolling," I think that has more to do with my distaste for others disregard for how the game was supposed to be played. It is one thing to play a no-holds-barred game that tests the limits of the code in all respects, but it is entirely different to take "Clarence Braveheart" through a "legitimate" role-playing adventure and try to rationalize taking two copies of a ring that is so unique and powerful that it is clearly an epic item.

To each his own, I suppose, but it's mighty hard to look down your nose at someone for their play style when you are standing all the way down there.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:19 pm

If the two of you have *anything* else to exchange, take it to personal messages. This is not the place for a personal anger fest.

Lark, Eldariel, nice posts.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:50 am

[QUOTE=Lark]There are however some exceptions and curiosities.
Spells that will bypass the cloak's protection:
Vampire Touch
Cloudkill
Acid Fog
Fire Cloud

Summon Insects
Insect Plague
Creeping Doom
Earthquake
Holy/Unholy Word
Nature's Beauty[/QUOTE]
I am not sure if you consider it an oddity that area spells bypass the cloak's protection, or if the oddity part is directed at other items. After all, the description says the Cloak of Mirroring reflect offensive spells. Area affect spells, like Cloudkill, Earthquake or Abi-Dalzim's, are usually not directed at the one equipping the cloak, and therefore damage is dealt as normal.

Also, I believe the cloak will not protect the caster from most of the mind affecting spells. I don't have the game, nor Near Infinity installed, so I'm unable to check what it precisely does protect against. But Lark, you surely gave as indepth a response as one possible can.

Eldariel: Equipping the Cloak of Mirroring together with The Equalizer and the Belt of Inertial Barrier (which offers decent protection from area affect spells) should give you a nice defense against spells. The Ring of Gaxx would always be more than a welcome addition, but if you're protecting yourself with the three, previously mentioned items, then all is more than well.

Eldariel · Post by **Eldariel** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:32 am

Alright, thanks a lot, will do ^^ I take I should use Ring of Free Action too? I mean, Hold Person et company still pose a threat.

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:00 am

I am not sure if you consider it an oddity that area spells bypass the cloak's protection, or if the oddity part is directed at other items. After all, the description says the Cloak of Mirroring reflect offensive spells. Area affect spells, like Cloudkill, Earthquake or Abi-Dalzim's, are usually not directed at the one equipping the cloak, and therefore damage is dealt as normal.

The Cloak of Mirrorong (at least in SoA) protects against:
1) all direct damage spells - be they area spells or not, be they targeted at the wearer of the cloak or not and
2) all death spells (those spells that death ward protects against)
with the exceptions I gave above,
and nothing else.

The same goes for items that duplicate above mentioned spells, again, with the exceptions I gave above.

Please note, that the Cloak of Mirroring does not only protect against the damage of direct damage spells, but against the whole spell. So if a direct damage spell has multiple effects, you will be protected against all of it's effects. If you are hit by a Comet, you won't only recieve no damage, but won't have to check neither if you'll be knocked back.

I would be glad if someone could check, whether the ToB version of the cloak protects against Bigby's spells and Implosion.

I take I should use Ring of Free Action too? I mean, Hold Person et company still pose a threat.

The choice is your's. Free action hasn't got only advantages. To protect yourself from hold you can use a charge from the greenstone amulet as well, which will moreover protect you from all kinds of mind affecting spells and all psionics, when the situation affords it.
If you want a detailed list what protects exactly against what I can recommend the [url="http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Immunities.htm#ImmunityToEffect"]Spells Reference[/url].

Best regards,
Lark

Eldariel · Post by **Eldariel** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:08 pm

Wow, thanks for the link! That more or less answers all my problems regarding protections and what works against what (save for Cloak of Mirroring, since that site only lists immunities and such, not mirroring -.-).

I think I'll get and keep a Greenstone Amulet with me for the sitiuations, I've got nothing else against and equip Ring of Free Action as a 'standard' equipment (seeing that I've got a free Ring-slot anyways).

Oh, and wait! Does Mirroring actually stop Wail of the Banshee?