Let's Talk About Grout (Spoilers!)

Eadaii · Post by **Eadaii** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:06 pm

One of my favorite parts of this game is how there is no obvious good guy or bad guy. There are lots of accusations and denials, and it's up to you to decide who you want to trust. And of course, in the ending, you get some insight into what was really going on. One mystery that was never fully solved though, was GROUT'S DEATH.

Obviously it wasn't Bach or Nines, and since Ming has no reason to lie about that, it was probably her who actually killed him. But who did she kill him for? Obviously not for her own designs, since Grout says he fears a male.camarilla.vampire. and Ming is none of those things.

The obvious choice would be Lacroix, since Ming claims she did it for him, and since he's the only important camarilla vampire we know much about. But why would he do it? Ming's explanation suggests that it was nothing personal, he merely sacrificed Grout so he could blame Nines. Grout's fears, however, suggest a lot more than that.

Grout claims to know things about the man. Evil deeds of his past and future. And supposedly the man wants to silence Grout. (Or so I gathered.) So where does Lacroix fit into this?

Share your own speculations and opinions about the death of Grout.

Shizz · Post by **Shizz** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:57 pm

Grout claims to know things about the man. Evil deeds of his past and future. And supposedly the man wants to silence Grout. (Or so I gathered.) So where does Lacroix fit into this?

Uh... everywhere, I guess.. you don't get to be Prince of LA without a big pile of ashes in your closet.. and LaCroix _does_ plot evil things, evil things indeed - thus, silencing the insightful Grout means the removal of a significant threat to his plans.. and, well, that he gets to call a bloodhunt on Nines won't exactly make that plan look less attractive to LaCroix ;-)

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:28 pm

Also, don't forget that LaCroix thinks there is a powerful elder vampire in the sarcophagus and plans to drink its blood, thus becoming extremely powerful. If Grout new this, and considering such practices are against Camarilla law, it would be a good reason to want to shut him up permanently.

Shizz · Post by **Shizz** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:30 pm

I think we can file that under "evil things" ;-P

(sorry for being a smartass... that line just was irresistible...)

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:30 pm

Just listen to all if Grouts recordings, Ming (of course she is telling the truth) and if you play up to Lacroix (to rob him blind

) and act like you support him he admits it forming an allience to get rid of Nines to bring the Anarchs into the Camarilla.
So he set up Nines for killing Grout, ie had Grout killed casue Grout knew his plans past and future.

EvilBelgian · Post by **EvilBelgian** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:40 am

Yea, i'd say it's not an open mystery at the end. Grout's insight proved to become a problem for Lacriox, so Grout had to die. Using Ming ( and yourself)to frame Nines allowing a bloodhunt to be called is just a nice bonus to boot for Lacroix.

yrthwyndandfyre · Post by **yrthwyndandfyre** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:00 pm

I would concur with everybody else, that Grout is a closed case. The only thing that ever bugged me about it was that Lacriox has no future. Then I realised that we aren't ever made privy to when Grout recorded his remark about past and future plans. From Grout's perspective at the time of the recording, perhaps the plan to diablorize an antedeluvian was one of this future plans (as opposed to a current plan) - you just happen to be the one to prevent him from completing it, or having a future beyond that point. If that was the future plan of which Grout spoke, it would have scared the bejabbers out of him, perhaps being the very thing that precipitates his sudden lock-down.

Oh, and I maintain that the "formless menace that brings about the end of all of this" is you. Formless because at the time, you do not yet exist from Grout's point of view. He just sees something coming that is going to destroy the L.A. vampire culture that Grout knows.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:58 pm

Well to me at least, Grout was refering to being in league with Ming, killing Nines and Grout.
I am not sure Grout could see things that maybe or precieved things, i.e things LaCroix believes that are not true, that a Elder is in the coffin when there clearly was not.
I would guess that way the game plays at least to me is the Malk's see things to come or as they are (i.e. seeing through lies), more of an Object Reality which is kinda ironic for a Malk.

Listen to the recordings again if you get the chance sometime, the formless menace is Ming.
Well again at least to me at this point.

The main reason is that Grout says sending to kill me, clearlywe were not there to kill him and Lacroix and Bach were Not working together.

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:29 pm

[QUOTE=Acleacius]
Listen to the recordings again if you get the chance sometime, the formless menace is Ming.[/quote]

Just listened to them again (you can find them in the sound directory, will post the exact path if you want) and I'm with yrth. The formless menace is you. In his final dictation, Grout clearly says that he knows LaCroix will strike at him. As you say, we know that Ming Xiao was sent there for this purpose. The very last thing Grout says, however, is that the voices have whispered to him of a dark and shapeless menace that will bring "an end...an end to all of this!"

An end to all of this. Not just himself. By the end of the game, you've put an end to a great deal. LaCroix's schemes, the Sabbat, the Kue Jin....

There was something else Grout speaks of that caught my interest. He says the voices have convinced him to make a "Faustian bargain." Faust sold his soul to the devil. What sort of Faustian bargain did Grout make, and with whom? We know that LaCroix deals with Ming Xiao, a bargain that would certainly seem rather Faustian to many Kindred, but that's LaCroix. Who was Grout dealing with?

yrthwyndandfyre · Post by **yrthwyndandfyre** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:57 pm

[QUOTE=Anaximander]There was something else Grout speaks of that caught my interest. He says the voices have convinced him to make a "Faustian bargain." Faust sold his soul to the devil. What sort of Faustian bargain did Grout make, and with whom? We know that LaCroix deals with Ming Xiao, a bargain that would certainly seem rather Faustian to many Kindred, but that's LaCroix. Who was Grout dealing with?[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily a who at all, I don't think. I believe he uses the term 'Faustian bargain' in the sense of making a decision for short-term gain that likely has long-term fallout, and not the nice warm, tingly radioactive kind. Specifically, sequestering himself in his mansion for the purpose of concealing what he knows from Lacriox, while knowing full well that the result will probably be the person he fears the most - Lacriox - coming for him anyway. The trade-off being that he hopes that the short-term gain will allow him to find a way to avoid the long-term fallout.

This is analogous to Faust's bargain for power at the cost of his soul - if he does in fact have one, then he has negotiated a short term gain (power) in exchange for a long-term evil (eternity in hell). However, perhaps with the short-term gain, he can find a way to avoid the long-term consequence, thus getting to both have his cake and eat it.

Darkstone · Post by **Darkstone** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:28 am

[QUOTE=Anaximander]There was something else Grout speaks of that caught my interest. He says the voices have convinced him to make a "Faustian bargain." Faust sold his soul to the devil. What sort of Faustian bargain did Grout make, and with whom? We know that LaCroix deals with Ming Xiao, a bargain that would certainly seem rather Faustian to many Kindred, but that's LaCroix. Who was Grout dealing with?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I've wondered about that too. There's lots of "devilish" possibilities: Kuei-jin, Sabbat, Anarchs, SOC, even Jack. One might think the bargain was with the Kuei-jin. Jack mentions all that Oriental philosophy can enthrall and confuse a Westerner. The scientifically curious Grout could be an easy mark for such, especially if he was led to believe such magics might cure his wife. That would explain how Ming was able to just waltz in past all his defenses. On the other hand that would also mean that the voices were wrong. But if a Malk can't trust their voices, who can they trust?

So I'm leaning towards the "Faustian bargain" as being with the Anarchs. They are known and effective enemies of LaCroix, and so it would make sense for Grout's voices to suggest them as allies. It's just that somehow Grout's overtures to Nines were intercepted and Ming showed up in his place.

Which still leaves the question of how and why Grout allowed himself to get manacled to his bed....

An intriguing question is "How do we know it was really Ming at the mansion?" Sure, Ming says it was her, and we all know we can trust her (at least until we play the "Side with Kuei-jin" ending.) But when you first talk with her at the temple Ming's reactions to your insights suggest she's never met a Malk.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:23 pm

"dark and shapeless menace that will bring "an end...an end to all of this"
" By the end of the game, you've put an end to a great deal. LaCroix's schemes, the Sabbat, the Kue Jin.."

I kinda disagree with this direction, imo we clearly are not a Dark Menance, the only possible Dark Menances are Ming casue she is coming to kill Grout or Caine whom Grout could easily be refering to, since the Malk PC constatly reflects on the impending, "Coming of the Dark Father".

I would agree that this could possibly explain how Jack knew what LaCroix was up to and the Faustian bargain he refers too, is him having to sell out the Camarilla to the Anarchs, to try to save himself and his wife.

yrthwyndandfyre · Post by **yrthwyndandfyre** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:43 pm

[QUOTE=Acleacius]I kinda disagree with this direction, imo we clearly are not a Dark Menance, the only possible Dark Menances are Ming casue she is coming to kill Grout or Caine whom Grout could easily be refering to, since the Malk PC constatly reflects on the impending, "Coming of the Dark Father".
[/QUOTE]

Grout was a cammy. Our PC may not be a "Dark Menace" from our own perspective, but from the point of view of a prescient cammy, we are the very Sledgehammer of Doom. I know of where I speak - I've seen a tornado up close and personal. I know what the Sledgehammer of Doom feels like when it's coming to give you your basic 'love tap'. Trust me. You don't want to be there. They don't make diapers that thick.

EvilBelgian · Post by **EvilBelgian** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:45 am

[QUOTE=Darkstone] That would explain how Ming was able to just waltz in past all his defenses.
[/QUOTE]
On one recording Grout said that, yes, there is defense build into his mansion but that was before he learned the full potential/extend of vampirism.
So being as powerfull as she is, Ming wouldn't have any problems with the security system.

Although Grout's sentence can be interpreted in other ways, I also believe that the PC is the formless menace.

DarkHelmet918 · Post by **DarkHelmet918** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:57 am

Grout Recording File

can someone tell me where i can find the sound files of grout's recording?? apparently i only listened to his spiel about how he's researching vampirism

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:54 pm

In order to manually play Grout's sound files, you'll need to extract them from the .vpk files first. If you have not already done this, you can find the latest version of Turfster's .vpk tool [url="http://turfster.cjb.net/"]here.[/url] When you extract the .vpk's, be sure the "0 length wav fix" option is checked. Extracting data from the .vpk files will overwrite any existing data already in your Vampire directory, so when you're done extracting the files you'll need to re-apply any unofficial patches or mods you have installed.

Once you have them extracted, you'll find them in the Vampire\sounds\area\downtown\malkavian directory. The file names start with dictation_message, and there are 14 of them. Be careful playing them. If you use Windows Media Player to listen to them, it may cause a crash the next time you activate them in game. To avoid this, either copy the files into another location first before you play them, or use something other than Windows Media Player.

Bat22 · Post by **Bat22** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:57 am

I'm replaying the game after a lengthy absence so my memory might be hazy but...

Regarding Grout's "Faustian :devil: bargain", I've wondered if that was the reason for Grout's presence at the mansion? An alliance doesn't get any more unholy for a vampire if he would strike one with a vampire hunter. Even though Bach arrived with intent to kill Grout, it may be that Grout was aware of his intense hatred for Lacroix and might have summoned him there to unite against their common foe.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:15 am

Bach was there to kill Grout though so I don't think they had a deal going on between them. Of course, if there was a deal, Bach could have been using it to kill Lacroix and Grout.